2009 World Series: Phillies @ Yankees

[bsox0407]

Never said they didn't' date=' but, it's important to keep in mind that the Yankees do nice things for the community all the time. HOPE Week this year was fantastic.[/quote']

 

I never said that they didn't either. i was just showing they did something good for me. it was f***ing hilarious Patrick was so f***ing plastered by the end of the night. Sox won 2-1 and Manny hit a mammoth shot out over the wall.

[26 to 6]

You throw away the last part as if it doesn't matter.

 

It's the point. It's what everyone focuses on.

 

Bought championships include:

 

All of them ever. Every team is owned, every player is owned, therefore, every championship was 'bought'.

 

Thought experiment:

 

Can you imagine if the entire country of China bought a baseball team? And they decided that their payroll cap was about $500m in any particular season. Thus the payroll numbers would be:

 

Chinese Team: $435m

Yankees: $208m

Some combination of Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, etc.,: $100-130m

 

No big deal, I'm sure you're thinking.

 

Now imagine how you would respond if, when that Chinese team inevitably won its WS, their lowlife fans started talking s*** about the Yankees and how superior the Chinese team was over the other franchises because of their baseball prowess...

 

Just think about it for a second...

 

Are you saying that at no point would you bring up the monetary differences as a reason why the Chinese team was better--rather than the implied differences in 'character' or 'city' or 'fans' or 'ghosts of the stadium' or any other 'mystique' based s*** that the Chinese team would like to gloat about? I bet you would.

 

The Yankees have no chance of catching up to China in overall income or media market. The CSN (Chinese Sports Network) is worth $3.5 billion, they have plans for a new stadium and this year, although $100m is coming off the books, they're thinking of really pushing that payroll advantage. They just signed Pujols AND Mauer to $40m/yr contracts, but they realized that Roy Halladay and Josh Beckett were avaialble (the Yankees stopped their bidding at $25m/yr for each and thought they had it sealed, but the Chinese Warriors always get the last call by agents and they decided that they could manage to absorb another $50m/yr. It seems dick, it seems like its against the competitive nature of the sport, yet its totally legitimate. Deal with it.

 

The Chinese team's relationship to the Yankees (roughly twice as big) is only the relative difference between the current Colorodo Rockies and the real Yankees. Middle of the pack. For a team to have the spending advantages over the Yankees that the Yankees have over the Marlins, it would have a payroll of $1.236 Billion (to the Yankees $208m).

 

Would you be okay with a 31st team coming in and having a $1.236B payroll? Or are you only okay with it as long as your team has a 5x advantage on the lowest teams?

Ok so I understand the point your trying to make, i really do. But I would suggest a better hypothetical analogy. China is a f***ing country, the biggest one at that. The 30 MLB teams are for the most part privately-run organizations. There's a reason the Yankees make more money than every other team and therefore can spend more of it than any other team; and while some of it admittedly has to do with the large media market and fan base, not to mention the global recognition of the brand; it's not all luck. The Yankees make a lot of money because they do a lot of things well. At the same time I really can't blame fans of other teams for despising the Yankees and taking issue with their spending habits, but it would be so much easier to take from fans who root for the Mariners, Padres, Guardians and Nationals for instance.

 

Believe me I realize how fortunate and lucky we Yankee fans are to be fans of a team with the benefits and advantages the Yankees have, and that it's just chance and happenstance that I for instance (I'm not going to speak for all Yankee fans) am from where I'm from and come from a family of lifelong Yankee fans spanning several generations. If I grew up in Pittsburgh or somewhere like that and my friends and family were all lifelong Pirates, I would probably say the same s*** you guys are saying about the Yankees and their financial advantages (to "buy" championships). But it just gets so old hearing it from Red Sox fans. Red Sox fans are constantly bitching about the Yankees for one reason or another, and have been doing so for almost a century since Ed Barrow jumped ship on the Sox and started signing all their stars for the Yankees. So after so many years and decades of Yankee fans listening to Sox fans bitch and whine about anything and everything having to do with the Yankees from their success, to their financial advantages, to the players themselves on the field it just gets old hearing you guys bitch about this, and the fact that the Sox themselves are the second biggest spenders (typically) and second most profitable team makes it all the more annoying. It's just part of the rivalry I suppose, I just feel it's one of the elements that gets too much attention and could definitely deserve to die down a bit. Keep in mind though that as much as Yankee fans piss you off and drive you crazy, Sox fans drive us crazy just as much, if not more because it's never-ending with you guys.

 

That's all.

[a700hitter]

You throw away the last part as if it doesn't matter.

 

It's the point. It's what everyone focuses on.

 

Bought championships include:

 

All of them ever. Every team is owned, every player is owned, therefore, every championship was 'bought'.

 

Thought experiment:

 

Can you imagine if the entire country of China bought a baseball team? And they decided that their payroll cap was about $500m in any particular season. Thus the payroll numbers would be:

 

Chinese Team: $435m

Yankees: $208m

Some combination of Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, etc.,: $100-130m

 

No big deal, I'm sure you're thinking.

 

Now imagine how you would respond if, when that Chinese team inevitably won its WS, their lowlife fans started talking s*** about the Yankees and how superior the Chinese team was over the other franchises because of their baseball prowess...

 

Just think about it for a second...

 

Are you saying that at no point would you bring up the monetary differences as a reason why the Chinese team was better--rather than the implied differences in 'character' or 'city' or 'fans' or 'ghosts of the stadium' or any other 'mystique' based s*** that the Chinese team would like to gloat about? I bet you would.

 

The Yankees have no chance of catching up to China in overall income or media market. The CSN (Chinese Sports Network) is worth $3.5 billion, they have plans for a new stadium and this year, although $100m is coming off the books, they're thinking of really pushing that payroll advantage. They just signed Pujols AND Mauer to $40m/yr contracts, but they realized that Roy Halladay and Josh Beckett were avaialble (the Yankees stopped their bidding at $25m/yr for each and thought they had it sealed, but the Chinese Warriors always get the last call by agents and they decided that they could manage to absorb another $50m/yr. It seems dick, it seems like its against the competitive nature of the sport, yet its totally legitimate. Deal with it.

 

The Chinese team's relationship to the Yankees (roughly twice as big) is only the relative difference between the current Colorodo Rockies and the real Yankees. Middle of the pack. For a team to have the spending advantages over the Yankees that the Yankees have over the Marlins, it would have a payroll of $1.236 Billion (to the Yankees $208m).

 

Would you be okay with a 31st team coming in and having a $1.236B payroll? Or are you only okay with it as long as your team has a 5x advantage on the lowest teams?

I only had to read a couple of sentences into this lengthy post to come to the following conclusion. If the Yankees were playing a team owned by the Nation of China, I would still root against the Yankees.

 

BTW I am curious as to why you would use China in your hypothetical. I would think you would admire China especially since you favor the prevailing philosophy among our politicians who are intent upon squandering every economic advantage of the U.S that generation upon generation and hundreds of millions of Americans worked so hard to achieve over more than two centuries. After they have destroyed the free market system and reduced our standard of living to the point where we can no longer feed our people or provide them with adequate medical care, we will be just like China.

[Keeper]

Way to needlessly enter politics into the discussion.

[a700hitter]

Way to needlessly enter politics into the discussion.

I wanted to inject it into the discussion, so it wasn't needless. You should use accurate terms and descriptions when seeking to insult someone. At least I was raising a topic for discussion and not just making a pointless insult like you did.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Seriously, I'm guessing he didn't read ANY of the post since the part about the team being owned by China is more or less irrelevant to the point.

[a700hitter]

Seriously' date=' I'm guessing he didn't read ANY of the post since the part about the team being owned by China is more or less irrelevant to the point.[/quote']I read the entire post. It and the entire discussion about spending and resources is whiney and boring. The only thing that I found of interest in the post was the concept of China owning a baseball team.

[example1]

I read the entire post. It and the entire discussion about spending and resources is whiney and boring. The only thing that I found of interest in the post was the concept of China owning a baseball team.

 

The point of the post is actually that the Yankees are in such a situation where it benefits them to spend ungodly amounts of money. Read a book or two about how finances work in baseball. As soon as the idea of privately owning media outlets started and the YES network was created, the Yankees started making money hand over fist. The ONLY factor that will impede that succes is having a noncompetitive team. All teams that own a private network (like, say, NESN) are in a similar situation, but the media market drives the income, and the media market in NY is substantially larger than all the rest of them.

 

I'm sorry you found the whole discussion whiny and boring. I think you lack any understanding about how the business of baseball works, and you are much more interested in the Sox producing a winning team at all times, sparing no expense and paying no attention to the financial implications of the moves you propose. It has been going on for years, so honestly your comment about it being whiny and boring is not shocking. You're commonly understood around here as someone who doesn't "get" the business side of baseball and therefore you have been "stuck" on 50% of the decisions this team has made from the first time we encountered each other. "Whiny and Boring" or "over your head", that's for the rest of us to decide.

 

Given how often you complain about your money being wasted (as if you--or anyone else here--have contributed, throughout the course of your life, enough money to pay for ONE AB by David Ortiz) I'm going to encourage you to just not read my posts.

 

Also, I find your attempt to make this a political discussion pathetic and juvenile.

 

The reason i chose China is because it is one country that clearly has an economy bigger than the output of New York City, and it isn't close. If you want to compare NY and Kansas City I think that jumping to one of the biggest non-US economies is a useful comparison in the other direction.

 

Other people apparently agreed, since they didn't get caught up in the specific country and they certainly didn't take it as an opportunity to jump on someone else about their political beliefs.

 

You're not going to change my mind from being a compassionate member of society who would rather observe "waste" than "suffering", and I'm not going to convince you that you should be more compassionate with how you observe people spending their money and time. You will paint me as China/Socialist/Maoist/Totalitarian/Communist and I will paint you as insensitive and selfish. It could go on for a long time, but the pages and pages we've already discussed (in appropriate political forums) should suffice for now. I'll leave it at that, regardless of your response (which I'm learning to care less and less about as I realize that your only intention in interacting with me is to take underhanded shots at my entire philosophy on life).

[26 to 6]

Never said they didn't' date=' but, it's important to keep in mind that the Yankees do nice things for the community all the time. HOPE Week this year was fantastic.[/quote']

Yeah people seem to conveniently neglect all the contributions the Yankees have made to the community.

 

By all accounts George Steinbrenner has absolutely nothing to do with the New York Yankees anymore. So find someone else to blame this past year's ticket prices on. Also, I'm a fan of the New York Yankees, and one who attends games. I've never complained once about the ticket prices.

Sorry, but you're probably the only one.

 

plus it helps that Steinbrenner owns the Devils and the Nets(who he doesn't put to much money into). Plus he gains revenue since he sold the rights to the yes network to cable and Directv only and not dish and gets continued cash from that.

he owns neither. At one point in the not too distant past he had small stakes in the ownership groups that owned those teams, but he has since sold them several years ago

[a700hitter]

The point of the post is actually that the Yankees are in such a situation where it benefits them to spend ungodly amounts of money. Read a book or two about how finances work in baseball. As soon as the idea of privately owning media outlets started and the YES network was created, the Yankees started making money hand over fist. The ONLY factor that will impede that succes is having a noncompetitive team. All teams that own a private network (like, say, NESN) are in a similar situation, but the media market drives the income, and the media market in NY is substantially larger than all the rest of them.

 

I'm sorry you found the whole discussion whiny and boring. I think you lack any understanding about how the business of baseball works, and you are much more interested in the Sox producing a winning team at all times, sparing no expense and paying no attention to the financial implications of the moves you propose. It has been going on for years, so honestly your comment about it being whiny and boring is not shocking. You're commonly understood around here as someone who doesn't "get" the business side of baseball and therefore you have been "stuck" on 50% of the decisions this team has made from the first time we encountered each other. "Whiny and Boring" or "over your head", that's for the rest of us to decide.

 

Given how often you complain about your money being wasted (as if you--or anyone else here--have contributed, throughout the course of your life, enough money to pay for ONE AB by David Ortiz) I'm going to encourage you to just not read my posts.

 

Also, I find your attempt to make this a political discussion pathetic and juvenile.

 

The reason i chose China is because it is one country that clearly has an economy bigger than the output of New York City, and it isn't close. If you want to compare NY and Kansas City I think that jumping to one of the biggest non-US economies is a useful comparison in the other direction.

 

Other people apparently agreed, since they didn't get caught up in the specific country and they certainly didn't take it as an opportunity to jump on someone else about their political beliefs.

 

You're not going to change my mind from being a compassionate member of society who would rather observe "waste" than "suffering", and I'm not going to convince you that you should be more compassionate with how you observe people spending their money and time. You will paint me as China/Socialist/Maoist/Totalitarian/Communist and I will paint you as insensitive and selfish. It could go on for a long time, but the pages and pages we've already discussed (in appropriate political forums) should suffice for now. I'll leave it at that, regardless of your response (which I'm learning to care less and less about as I realize that your only intention in interacting with me is to take underhanded shots at my entire philosophy on life).

Whining about the Yankees economic advantage is not exactly an advanced financial analysis. It would be difficult for such a discussion to be over anyone's head. It is boring, whiny and pointless.

 

I didn't take any shots at your political views. I only noted where I think the current political regime is headed-- a global government that sacrifices the sovereignty of the US. You were a big B.O. supporter during the campaign, so I was wondering I how you felt about their direction. How do you process that as a disapproval of compassion etc.? That's a little bit wacky. How many charities are there to which you contribute your time and resources? I do quite a bit of charity work, and I generously contribute cash and property to a number of charities.

[yankees228]

26-6, I'm not saying that the ticket prices are fair. All I'm saying is that this is the society we live in, and that's just how things are going to be. Because of this, there is no use complaining. As long as the Yankees continue to field winning teams, their ticket prices will continue to be quite high.

 

Which do you prefer: Yankee success or lower ticket prices?

[TheKilo]

It means nothing. The Yankees are 80 million away from the Red Sox. The Red Sox are 77 million above the Padres. Big deal.

 

But that's exactly the f***ing point, Gom. To the Yankees, the Red Sox might as well be the f***ing San Diego Padres.

 

I mean, holy s***. How hard is this to grasp? No one is saying the Yankees aren't playing by the rules. All people are saying is the Yankees benefit the most from the rules that are currently in place, and will continue to do so.

 

The Yankees do not play on a level playing field with anyone else. The Red Sox have peers at their salary level. The Yankees cannot say that. Because of this fact, I feel that the championship the Yankees just won could feel hollow to some Yankee fans, which is why I asked the initial question.

 

STRAWMAN ALERT!!!

Show me again ONE time I never acknowledged payroll disparity. I always have. I am glad I root for a team that is willing to put money out there rather than in their pockets as according to Forbes. The Red Sox put approximately 26 million in their pockets.

 

4th highest payroll. 5th place finish. Consistent.

 

You're not going to get any argument about the Yankees are willing to spend theory.

 

Now..show me one Red Sox fan who acknowledges your payroll disparity over the other 28 teams this decade. One second. ORS has acknowledged it. Show me another.

 

Sorry, this is the system of baseball. You're blaming the Yankees for winning. Wow. I've made this argument before. If you think it needs changing, your issue should be with Selig, not the Yankees. You take advantage of the same situation, just not to the extreme we take it to. Acknowledged...again. For the umpteenth time. At least ORS admits that odds are, if there is a hard cap, his team will be nowhere nearly as successful as it has been. He's ok with this.

 

The Red Sox benefit from no salary cap. I'd like to you acknowledge, just once, that the Yankees advantage is so significant, so profound, that it renders the Red Sox advantage over most of the teams in this league irrelevant. I mean, the Sox could take on the salaries of the entire Colorado Rockies team and still be less than New York.

 

How does that strike you as OK? Honest question.

 

I am not. I don't care that my team enjoys an advantage. I pay more money for my upper deck seats than 85% of all tickets in EVERY stadium. My team's ownership puts that money in a winning product, year after year. I've always stated it.

 

What you really should ask yourself is why your Red Sox ownership has dropped payroll from 143 million in 2007 [your last championship by the way] to 121 million this year.

 

Oh...they must have LOST money. They never sell out that park.

 

At least our ownership puts the money in the team. Your ownership puts the money in their pocket while crying about ours...and convincing their fan base to cry about us, while laughing all the way to the bank with your money.

 

Now that, my friend, is the definition of f***ing pathetic.

 

How about you go read my posts at the time the Yankees acquired Tex last offseason, and tell me what I think about the Sox not spending money. I'll wait.

 

This is the typical Red Sox fan's ******** after we win. I'm used to it.

 

Don't forget to pour yourself a frosty, ice cold mug of shut the f*** up.

 

Gom, did you just hear the bolded expression for the first time the other day? It's not funny, will never be funny, and people who think it's funny are f***ing retarded.

 

I'll wait for you to tell me how it's OK that the Yankees spend money because they dropped payroll slightly last season.

[yankees228]

TK, what do you suggest?

[TheKilo]

In terms of what? I'd like to see a cap but I know it's not realistic. I'd simply like tpo hear a Yankee fan say that their advantage is so prevalent, so massive, that it allows them to play on a level no one else can achieve.

 

I'd like a Yankee fan to simply admit that yes, the system benefits their team more than any other, and it's not even close.

[yankees228]

In terms of what? I'd like to see a cap but I know it's not realistic. I'd simply like tpo hear a Yankee fan say that their advantage is so prevalent' date=' so [i']massive[/i], that it allows them to play on a level no one else can achieve.

 

I'd like a Yankee fan to simply admit that yes, the system benefits their team more than any other, and it's not even close.

 

I've already admitted. However, the Yankees deserve credit for helping to create that advantage. Part of it comes naturally to them, but they deserve some credit for all the revenue they bring in.

 

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the Yankees pay for their spending, in the form of a luxury tax.

[TheKilo]

The luxury tax is worthless because it is clear it's not a deterrent to spending.

[yankees228]

The luxury tax is worthless because it is clear it's not a deterrent to spending.

 

Well, that's not necessarily true. For the most part, you're right, but if it wasn't a deterrent, Carlos Beltran would be playing center field for the Yankees right now.

 

However, it is designed to help make other teams competitive. You can't blame the Yankees if those teams pocket the money.

[Dipre]

26.9 million is a pittance compared to the Yankees' spending power.

[yankees228]

Also, TK, while I agree with your premise that the Yankees operate from an enormous advantage, do you also agree that the Yankees have helped to create that advantage?

 

EDIT: By accomplishing something that had never been done.

[TheKilo]

As ORS said the Yankees should not be given much credit simply because they operate in the world's largest media market. I also do not believe that the Yankees are the sole driving force behind the record revenues that the league is raking in.

 

A combination of a tremendous financial advantage and luck from operating in the largest media market, in addition to having the taxpayers foot the bill for an unnecessary new stadium allowed them to drop half a billion dollars on free agents, all of which were key contributors to the world championship this season.

 

"The Red Sox do it too, although not as much" is not an excuse that holds water with me and yet it is the crutch most Yankee fans turn to when discussing this topic.

[yankees228]

As ORS said the Yankees should not be given much credit simply because they operate in the world's largest media market. I also do not believe that the Yankees are the sole driving force behind the record revenues that the league is raking in.

 

A combination of a tremendous financial advantage and luck from operating in the largest media market, in addition to having the taxpayers foot the bill for an unnecessary new stadium allowed them to drop half a billion dollars on free agents, all of which were key contributors to the world championship this season.

 

"The Red Sox do it too, although not as much" is not an excuse that holds water with me and yet it is the crutch most Yankee fans turn to when discussing this topic.

 

So you're not going to give the Yankees any credit for helping to create this advantage, by doing something that had never been done before, and, quite possibly, will never be done again? There is a reason why the Mets do not operate with the same advantage as the Yankees, even though they're in the same market.

[TheKilo]

Sure, they get credit for establishing the YES network. But again, it's not something they are capable of doing if they are in a market like San Diego or Kansas City.

 

Just like the Sox wouldn't have NESN if they were in those same markets.

[yankees228]

Sure, they get credit for establishing the YES network. But again, it's not something they are capable of doing if they are in a market like San Diego or Kansas City.

 

Just like the Sox wouldn't have NESN if they were in those same markets.

 

That wasn't what I was referring to. One of the main reasons they've been able to create this financial machine (which includes establishing the YES Network), is because of the unbelievable amount of success they had from 1996-2001. No one had come remotely close to reaching such heights since the introduction of free agency, and, quite likely, no one will come close again.

[Optimist]

The Yankees earn the most money, they spend the most money. They worked to build themselves a huge advantage, on and off the field, and they use that advantage to put together the best team. You can whine about "buying" championships, the concept is laughable at best, money alone does not produce results. Honestly, everyone can complain and whine, but Yankees are a model franchise. Their roster is loaded with homegrown talent, pieces which were essential to this year, and when they've needed to fill a major hole on the roster, they're willing to go all out to get it. They don't let the team suffer competitively for a few years before finding a cheap solution. They don't cry poverty, while pocketing profits. They don't have a billionaire owner who sells the team's best to the highest bidder as soon as their price tag goes too high. If I was a fan of a team like that, or a team pretending to be in that situation, I'd be angry at the owner...not the Yankees for using their resources to the full possible extent to provide the best possible product on the field. Give me the choice of an expensive team winning it all or one with a "fair" payroll doing anything less, I'll choose the former 11 times out of 10. And you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't...saying you wouldn't, well that'd be pretty "hollow."

 

But, seriously, you guys need to move on. Doesn't look good when Yankee fans are focused on 2010 and you guys are still complaining about this year.

[TheKilo]

The Yankees are not filled with homegrown talent. They have Cano, Robertson, Chamberlain, Cabrera, Gardner and Hughes.

 

That's it.

[Optimist]

The Yankees are not filled with homegrown talent. They have Cano, Robertson, Chamberlain, Cabrera, Gardner and Hughes.

 

That's it.

 

 

Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, and Posada say hello. The Yankees developed these players and they've managed to keep them because of their success. And some strong homegrown talent (Soriano, etc.), and financial capabilities, lead to A-Rod coming here.

 

Why is it that Red Sox fans think the title "homegrown" expires? It does not.

[TheKilo]

Because they were free agents, and signed as such.

 

Pettitte, Rivera, Jeter, and Posada all signed lucrative free agent contracts to stay with the New York Yankees.

[bsox0407]

Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, and Posada say hello. The Yankees developed these players and they've managed to keep them because of their success. And some strong homegrown talent (Soriano, etc.), and financial capabilities, lead to A-Rod coming here.

 

Why is it that Red Sox fans think the title "homegrown" expires? It does not.

 

Why do you talk in sweeping generalizations like an *******? He is talking about up an coming not about players who have been in the league since the late 90s and early 2000s.

[Optimist]

Those four players were developed by the Yankee farm system and the Yankees have retained them. That's homegrown to me. Might just have to agree to disagree on that.

[bsox0407]

He is talking about up an coming not about players who have been in the league since the late 90s and early 2000s.

 

Those four players were developed by the Yankee farm system and the Yankees have retained them. That's homegrown to me. Might just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

PLZ READ ABOVE.