Grade Theo's Trade Deadline

[Dojji]

I, along with a lot of Mariners fans, would have been stunned to see the M's deal Felix. It probably would have been easier to get Ubaldo Jimenez.

[TheKilo]

Mike Lowell is the worst defensive third baseman in the game this season.

 

Please let that sink in.

 

The worst defensive third baseman in the game.

 

I'm glad Theo made this move instead of listening to the armchair scouts who have said "He looks better lately" or "his mobility is coming back".

 

His range is all but gone, unless the ball is hit right to him he doesn't make the play. It is a much better defensive alignment to have Youk at 3rd and Kotchman at 1st in late game situations.

[ORS]

Mike Lowell is the worst defensive third baseman in the game this season.

 

Please let that sink in.

 

The worst defensive third baseman in the game.

 

I'm glad Theo made this move instead of listening to the armchair scouts who have said "He looks better lately" or "his mobility is coming back".

 

His range is all but gone, unless the ball is hit right to him he doesn't make the play. It is a much better defensive alignment to have Youk at 3rd and Kotchman at 1st in late game situations.

This.

 

His range may have improved from the beginning of the season, but that doesn't mean it's any good. He still looks like he's wearing ankle weights.

[Dipre]

This.

 

His range may have improved from the beginning of the season, but that doesn't mean it's any good. He still looks like he's wearing ankle weights.

 

Even worse, a lot of the times when coming back to the dugout after a groundout he tries to beat out, look at his face, the expression of pain is clearly visible.

[example1]

I still feel like Felix Hernandez will be on the Red Sox someday. I've had that inclination for awhile and have felt that he's the other version of Beckett: young, big and soon to be available. I'm sure he'll test FA so he should be available a year or two before that. He has 2010 and 2011 under contract but Seattle would be smart to start taking offers sooner than later. I would think that by this time next year an offer of Kelly, Bowden and Anderson could be really tempting for the Mariners and would still not affect the Sox MLB club very much.

[Dipre]

I still feel like Felix Hernandez will be on the Red Sox someday. I've had that inclination for awhile and have felt that he's the other version of Beckett: young' date=' big and soon to be available. I'm sure he'll test FA so he should be available a year or two before that. He has 2010 and 2011 under contract but Seattle would be smart to start taking offers sooner than later. [b']I would think that by this time next year an offer of Kelly, Bowden and Anderson [/b]could be really tempting for the Mariners and would still not affect the Sox MLB club very much.

 

Would be a nice place to start, right?

[example1]

Would be a nice place to start' date=' right?[/quote']

 

THIS is what depth is all about. There's top line depth (Buchholz, Kelly and Anderson) and second tier depth that is still very, very valuable. I mean Hagadone, Masterson and Price are all pretty damn nice pieces. The Sox are LOADED with guys who have the potential to be nice pieces... many of them guys that the casual fan hasn't heard of. If they are able to sign their hard-to-sign guys (Renfroe and Younginer, for example) then they will have a few more of those guys into the next few years. Sign 'em, train 'em, ship them out in groups of 5 for whichever player the FO wants. I hope that's how this plays out.

[a700hitter]

I can't imagine why the Sox would want a 26 year old who put up an .840 OPS at 24 who saw significant playing time (starter) for the Angels and Braves. He was at the center of the Teixeira trade and the 13th pick overall in 2001. They control him for two more arbitration seasons whereas LaRoche is a FA next year.

 

If he becomes what the other teams thought he would then they just scored themselves a very solid hitter. If he stays where he is they give up essentially two minor-leaguers they weren't going to have much use for to take a chance on a highly touted, still young player. Similar to the Wily Mo Pena move, except that they don't have to keep Kotchman on the MLB roster and he's actually a decent fielder.

 

I don't love Kotchman and I wouldn't have picked him personally, but I can see why the FO thinks this move helps the club overall.

I didn't say that he was a bad player. Everything in your post I already knew. Question: How does he get ABs on this team? I have heard that he is going to be a late inning defensive replacement. Do we really need to waste a roster spot for a late inning defensive replacement for Mike Lowell which would involve moving Youk across the diamond after playing the entire game at 1B. I don't see how he gets ABs on this team, so why did they get him?

[rician blast]

Or maybe they simply think highly of a lot of the prospects Toronto was asking for.

 

Absulotely plausible and in reality that's the easy answer.

 

But, like I said, PERHAPS the FO was equally concerned that this team could falter even with Halliday in the mix...then the trade is a lose/lose proposition.

[Dipre]

THIS is what depth is all about. There's top line depth (Buchholz' date=' Kelly and Anderson) and second tier depth that is still very, very valuable. I mean Hagadone, Masterson and Price are all pretty damn nice pieces. The Sox are LOADED with guys who have the potential to be nice pieces... many of them guys that the casual fan hasn't heard of. If they are able to sign their hard-to-sign guys (Renfroe and Younginer, for example) then they will have a few more of those guys into the next few years. Sign 'em, train 'em, ship them out in groups of 5 for whichever player the FO wants. I hope that's how this plays out.[/quote']

 

For the love of God, sign Renfroe.

[a700hitter]

You guys are acting as if it is impossible to get a 4th/5th OF if need be.

It's not impossible and they should have gotten one, because they are going to need one this week with Drew having a groin issue. That was a need that should have been addressed. A number of you posters have taken this discussion in a circle. I said that we need another OF because we barely have 3 warm bodies to put out there every night. I said that we need another OF more than we need a third first baseman. Frankly ORS, if my desire for a 5th OF is pathological when there are three OF positions then defending the acquisition of a third first baseman is idiocy. Several posters replied that none were available that would have upgraded our situation. Now, we have come full circle and the replies are stating that it's easy to pick up a 4th or 5th OFer. Which is it? None are available or we can pick one up any time? I'm getting confused. We need another OF ... now. Drew is down with a groin and those can linger. We don't need a third first baseman. I like the argument that Kotchman would be a good PH. Isn't inter-league over? How often does Tito pinch hit? Kotchman is going to rot on the bench, and if Tito works him into some sort of rotation with Youkilis, Lowell, VMArt and Tek, he had better produce because 5 guys sharing 3 positions could get ugly.

[Dipre]

It's not impossible and they should have gotten one' date=' because they are going to need one this week with Drew having a groin issue. That was a need that should have been addressed. A number of you posters have taken this discussion in a circle. I said that we need another OF because we barely have 3 warm bodies to put out there every night. I said that we need another OF more than we need a third first baseman. Frankly ORS, if my desire for a 5th OF is pathological when there are three OF positions then defending the acquisition of a third first baseman is idiocy. Several posters replied that none were available that would have upgraded our situation. Now, we have come full circle and the replies are stating that it's easy to pick up a 4th or 5th OFer. Which is it? None are available or we can pick one up any time? I'm getting confused. We need another OF ... now. Drew is down with a groin and those can linger. We don't need a third first baseman. I like the argument that Kotchman would be a good PH. Isn't inter-league over? How often does Tito pinch hit? Kotchman is going to rot on the bench, and if Tito works him into some sort of rotation with Youkilis, Lowell, VMArt and Tek, he had better produce because 5 guys sharing 3 positions could get ugly.[/quote']

 

Sweet Jesus, calm down and pull it together, man!

[a700hitter]

Absulotely plausible and in reality that's the easy answer.

 

But, like I said, PERHAPS the FO was equally concerned that this team could falter even with Halliday in the mix...then the trade is a lose/lose proposition.

How he could think that a team with decent offense and defense could falter with Beckett, Lester and Halladay heading your rotation baffles me. If he thinks we would falter with Halladay, I guess we have no hope without him?

[a700hitter]

Sweet Jesus' date=' calm down and pull it together, man![/quote']I'm upset, because I thought they would get Lee or Halladay and the Sox would be the class of both leagues. It didn't happen. We have three first basemen, one less reliever, and we are better offensively only if VMart plays in place of Tek. The Phillies are now the class of baseball. We are not. I am not optimistic about catching and holding off the Yankees and I am worried about holding on to a playoff spot.

[ORS]

It's not impossible and they should have gotten one' date=' because they are going to need one this week with Drew having a groin issue. That was a need that should have been addressed. A number of you posters have taken this discussion in a circle. I said that we need another OF because we barely have 3 warm bodies to put out there every night. I said that we need another OF more than we need a third first baseman. Frankly ORS, if my desire for a 5th OF is pathological when there are three OF positions then defending the acquisition of a third first baseman is idiocy. Several posters replied that none were available that would have upgraded our situation. Now, we have come full circle and the replies are stating that it's easy to pick up a 4th or 5th OFer. Which is it? None are available or we can pick one up any time? I'm getting confused. We need another OF ... now. Drew is down with a groin and those can linger. We don't need a third first baseman. I like the argument that Kotchman would be a good PH. Isn't inter-league over? How often does Tito pinch hit? Kotchman is going to rot on the bench, and if Tito works him into some sort of rotation with Youkilis, Lowell, VMArt and Tek, he had better produce because 5 guys sharing 3 positions could get ugly.[/quote']

Try reading what I posted again and let me know if you really think I'm saying your desire for 5th outfielder is pathological.

 

We already have one. Reddick. Your refusal to accept giving a prospect a chance, ever, under any circumstances, in the history of history, over a veteran, which appears to mean you are familiar with his name having seen it on Sportscenter over the last 5+ years, no matter how s***** that veteran's play has become, is what's pathological. Kotsay over Reddick? Really?

[das11209]

Time to move past trade deadline and talk waivers.

 

Reagrding another OF - I wonder if the Nats will put Dunn on waivers and we get a chance to get him. I am still a big Dunn fan and was hoping they will make a run at him after they failed to get Tex. Considering Ortiz's decline and Bay is almost out of the door - I will not mind signing Dunn at all in long term. Dunn will be a good replacement for Manny at least in terms of power ( unfortunately - also may be in terms of outfield defense). Again - Power is a big need of this team in post Manny/Ortiz era - we are just hoping Lars pans out and he is not making any splash this year.

 

Anything else we might be interested in? I think a 4th/5th starter will be nice - but not sure if we will get anything good.

[ORS]

Dunn should be a DH, and quite frankly, I think ours is better. Prior to his injury last year he was better, and since recovering from the slump he was in to start the year, he's been better. So, since he'd have to take the field, I don't get the appeal of a Dunn-type player. It's not like we are talking about a complete hitter, like Manny was. Dunn's a TTO hitter with horrible defense. Too many negatives for his lone positive, IMO.

[a700hitter]

Try reading what I posted again and let me know if you really think I'm saying your desire for 5th outfielder is pathological.

 

We already have one. Reddick. Your refusal to accept giving a prospect a chance, ever, under any circumstances, in the history of history, over a veteran, which appears to mean you are familiar with his name having seen it on Sportscenter over the last 5+ years, no matter how s***** that veteran's play has become, is what's pathological. Kotsay over Reddick? Really?

I don't like Kotsay. I go crazy when I see him coming to bat in a big spot. I'm not going to let this become a a Reddick vs. Kotsay debate, because that is not my point. We had Kotsay who is an OFer. Now, we have a third first baseman that we don't need. Do we really want AA Reddick being rushed to the majors. It's not a good argument that he couldn't suck worse than Kotsay. If Reddick isn't ready, why start the major league clock running on him?

 

As for this:

Your refusal to accept giving a prospect a chance, ever, under any circumstances, in the history of history, over a veteran, which appears to mean you are familiar with his name having seen it on Sportscenter over the last 5+ years, no matter how s***** that veteran's play has become, is what's pathological.

If you are going to use inflammatory insulting characterizations, please try to be accurate. I tend to favor veterans, as do most GM's, because they are better performers, but you claim that I never want to give a prospect a chance. Really? I have been enthusiastic about lots of prospects throughout the years-- Papelbon, Ellsbury, Bard, Lowrie among others. I have repeated this discussion with you several times. Yet, you continue dismissively paint my opinions with this broad brush in your usual obnoxious way. f*** off with your insults. It adds nothing to the discourse.

[Ellsy]

It'd be nice if we could find a REASONABLE end-of-the-rotation starter on waivers and then go ahead and dump either Smoltz or Worth-a-Penny.

[WhiskeyBreath]

What! You are questioning how VMart will be used? This is obviously a great move. Everyone is saying so. So what that we already have an All Star first basemen with a good back up and a gold glove third baseman who gets backed up by our All Star first baseman. So what that we have a starting catcher and Papi at DH. This is a fantastic move. Whether you sit Papi' date=' Youkilis, Lowell or Tek, VMart is much better than any of them. Of course, I am being sarcastic. Drew has come up with one of those injuries which might linger, [b']but we don't have a productive OF who can fill in for a couple or three games in a row.[/b] We don't have a major league SS, and we have 3 SP's that can't go more than 5. Big improvement.

 

Baldelli has doen that this year.

[ORS]

If you are going to use inflammatory insulting characterizations, please try to be accurate. I tend to favor veterans, as do most GM's, because they are better performers, but you claim that I never want to give a prospect a chance. Really? I have been enthusiastic about lots of prospects throughout the years-- Papelbon, Ellsbury, Bard, Lowrie among others. I have repeated this discussion with you several times. Yet, you continue dismissively paint my opinions with this broad brush in your usual obnoxious way. f*** off with your insults. It adds nothing to the discourse.

If your desire is accuracy, can we drop the mild tone of "tend to favor" and characterize it correctly? There is no "tend to favor" with you. Despite your professed enthusiasm, I can recall no situation where you preferred the prospect as an option. Your preference rate is 100%. This isn't "tending", it's doctrine. So, f*** off with your doctrine. What it adds to the discourse is already assumed by all familiar with your "tending".

[BSN07]

Mike Lowell is the worst defensive third baseman in the game this season.

 

Please let that sink in.

 

The worst defensive third baseman in the game.

 

I'm glad Theo made this move instead of listening to the armchair scouts who have said "He looks better lately" or "his mobility is coming back".

 

His range is all but gone, unless the ball is hit right to him he doesn't make the play. It is a much better defensive alignment to have Youk at 3rd and Kotchman at 1st in late game situations.

Couldn't agree more.

I still feel like Felix Hernandez will be on the Red Sox someday. I've had that inclination for awhile and have felt that he's the other version of Beckett: young' date=' big and soon to be available. I'm sure he'll test FA so he should be available a year or two before that. He has 2010 and 2011 under contract but Seattle would be smart to start taking offers sooner than later. I would think that by this time next year an offer of Kelly, Bowden and Anderson could be really tempting for the Mariners and would still not affect the Sox MLB club very much.[/quote']

I had the same feeling about Beckett. I'm starting to get the feeling about Felix as well:D

THIS is what depth is all about. There's top line depth (Buchholz' date=' Kelly and Anderson) and second tier depth that is still very, very valuable. I mean Hagadone, Masterson and Price are all pretty damn nice pieces. The Sox are LOADED with guys who have the potential to be nice pieces... many of them guys that the casual fan hasn't heard of. If they are able to sign their hard-to-sign guys (Renfroe and Younginer, for example) then they will have a few more of those guys into the next few years. Sign 'em, train 'em, ship them out in groups of 5 for whichever player the FO wants. I hope that's how this plays out.[/quote']

Sounds like a plan:thumbsup:

It's not impossible and they should have gotten one' date=' because they are going to need one this week with Drew having a groin issue. That was a need that should have been addressed. A number of you posters have taken this discussion in a circle. I said that we need another OF because we barely have 3 warm bodies to put out there every night. I said that we need another OF more than we need a third first baseman. Frankly ORS, if my desire for a 5th OF is pathological when there are three OF positions then defending the acquisition of a third first baseman is idiocy. Several posters replied that none were available that would have upgraded our situation. Now, we have come full circle and the replies are stating that it's easy to pick up a 4th or 5th OFer. Which is it? None are available or we can pick one up any time? I'm getting confused. We need another OF ... now. Drew is down with a groin and those can linger. We don't need a third first baseman. I like the argument that Kotchman would be a good PH. Isn't inter-league over? How often does Tito pinch hit? Kotchman is going to rot on the bench, and if Tito works him into some sort of rotation with Youkilis, Lowell, VMArt and Tek, he had better produce because 5 guys sharing 3 positions could get ugly.[/quote']

 

Chris Duncan and/or Josh Reddick could probably do as good as any 5th OF that was/is available IMO.

[BSN07]

It'd be nice if we could find a REASONABLE end-of-the-rotation starter on waivers and then go ahead and dump either Smoltz or Worth-a-Penny.

 

I have a feeling Smoltz is heading to the Pen when Wake returns. Either him or Buchholz. There isn't going to be any good pitching that passes through waivers. Too many contenders could use them. If worst came to worst, they could always sign a guy like Paul Byrd. I think Bowden and Tazawa get some spot starts down the stretch as well.

[diony]

Taking out Reddick from AA, where he's developing and getting regular ABs and rush him to the majors to be a 5th OF? Oh sure, go for it. :thumbsup:

[BSN07]

Taking out Reddick from AA' date=' where he's developing and getting regular ABs and rush him to the majors to be a 5th OF? Oh sure, go for it. :thumbsup:[/quote']

 

He would I assume be a last resort. I think Duncan gets a chance before him. And don't forget Brian Anderson. I'd say that's 3 good options for a 5th OF they have in house.

[Spudboy]

Pardon. I hate to interrupt the fun.

 

Some here may recall that I was a proponent of acquiring V-Mart several weeks ago. At the time, my rationale was simple. His versatility.... switch hitter (with some pop), 1st base, catcher, and occasional DH. He is still relatively young, and is reasonably priced as far as his existing contract goes. I'm glad that we got him. I would prefer to have Gonzalez, but not at such a huge price as was being required by Towers.

 

I just don't understand the circuitous route the Sox took to get him. They went out and got LaRoache and as a consequence, DFA'ed Kotsay. Now, after getting V-Mart, they unload LaRoache for Kotchman.

Why was this necessary? What was the plan? Couldn't we just have kept Kotsay (OF,1st) and dealt to get V-Mart? Some kind of roster move would have had to ensue. Maybe Kotsay is dumped anyway.

 

I understand why LaRoache was dealt for Kotchman. I just think we would have been better off holding onto Kotsay for a back-up OF.

 

Whatever.

 

I don't think any of these moves puts the Sox over the hump to get to the playoffs. It looks like it will be a struggle to take the Wild Card, let alone overtake the Yankees.

[BSN07]

Pardon. I hate to interrupt the fun.

 

Some here may recall that I was a proponent of acquiring V-Mart several weeks ago. At the time, my rationale was simple. His versatility.... switch hitter (with some pop), 1st base, catcher, and occasional DH. He is still relatively young, and is reasonably priced as far as his existing contract goes. I'm glad that we got him. I would prefer to have Gonzalez, but not at such a huge price as was being required by Towers.

 

I just don't understand the circuitous rout the Sox took to get him. They went out and got LaRoache and as a consequence, DFA'ed Kotsay. Now, after getting V-Mart, they unload LaRoache for Kotchman.

Why was this necessary? What was the plan? Couldn't we just have kept Kotsay (OF,1st) and dealt to get V-Mart? Some kind of roster move would have had to ensue. Maybe Kotsay is dumped anyway.

 

I understand why LaRoache was dealt for Kotchman. I just think we would have been better off holding onto Kotsay for a back-up OF.

 

Whatever.

 

I don't think any of these moves puts the Sox over the hump to get to the playoffs. It looks like it will be a struggle to take the Wild Card, let alone overtake the Yankees.

 

At the time of the Laroche deal I'm sure they didn't think they would be acquiring V-Mart. It wasn't until Garko was traded that the Guardians became "sellers". As soon as Lee went and the AG/Halladay talks stalled, I'm sure the Sox went back and worked on the deal for V-Mart. I think at the time the deal was so good for Laroche they had to take it. It was good insurance if the AG talks fell through.

[Spudboy]

At the time of the Laroche deal I'm sure they didn't think they would be acquiring V-Mart. It wasn't until Garko was traded that the Guardians became "sellers". As soon as Lee went and the AG/Halladay talks stalled' date=' I'm sure the Sox went back and worked on the deal for V-Mart. I think at the time the deal was so good for Laroche they had to take it. It was good insurance if the AG talks fell through.[/quote']

 

Sounds reasonable.

[TheKilo]

The fact that people are still pining for Mark Kotsay is hilarious to me.

[Dipre]

The fact that people are still pining for Mark Kotsay is hilarious to me.

 

The fact that diony attacks the decision to bring up Reddick practically guarantess he'll be starting next year at the AS game.