Grade Theo's Trade Deadline

[Dipre]

There are lots of major league OFers, and im sure that a lot were available. I would prefer to have Kotsay instead of Kotchman at this point. Kotchman will get 0 playing time. kotsay could have played against Righties if an OF goes down. He's better option than a AA Outfielder.

 

But you're not giving us specifics.

 

There was no one available as far as i;m concerned that wasn't much more than a marginal upgrade over what a Baldelli/Duncan platoon could offer.

[TheKilo]

I mean, you're really pining for Mark Kotsay?

 

.257/.291/.324./615 in 79 PA for the Sox this season?

 

Terrible. I'll bet dollars to donuts Reddick can match that line now.

[Dipre]

I mean, you're really pining for Mark Kotsay?

 

.257/.291/.324./615 in 79 PA for the Sox this season?

 

Terrible. I'll bet dollars to donuts Reddick can match that line now.

 

I'll bet dollars to pennies Reddick can put up a better line.

[a700hitter]

But you're not giving us specifics.

 

There was no one available as far as i;m concerned that wasn't much more than a marginal upgrade over what a Baldelli/Duncan platoon could offer.

There are about 120 major league OFers. I don't know which ones could have been available. You clearly don't watch many NL games. Duncan is a horror show in the OF. He's laughable. No way no how could he play RF in Fenway. It doesn't matter what his offensive numbers are. He shouldn't be issued an OFers glove. You might be able to hide him in LF at Fenway for a short period, but Bay can't play RF. Kotsay is a bona fide major league OFer. I am not putting in a big plug for him, but Kotchman can't play the OF and he will not be getting much time at 1B. He is going to collect dust.

[Dipre]

There are about 120 major league OFers. I don't know which ones could have been available. You clearly don't watch many NL games. Duncan is a horror show in the OF. He's laughable. No way no how could he play RF in Fenway. It doesn't matter what his offensive numbers are. He shouldn't be issued an OFers glove. You might be able to hide him in LF at Fenway for a short period' date=' but Bay can't play RF. Kotsay is a bona fide major league OFer. I am not putting in a big plug for him, but Kotchman can't play the OF and he will not be getting much time at 1B. He is going to collect dust.[/quote']

 

Wrong.

 

I've been following Duncan since he was a prospect for the Cards.

 

He may look like a horror show, but believe it or not, from the end of last season and most of this one his defensive stats have been pretty much average.

 

Again, if you're gonna argue that we should've gotten an OF, you should be able to at least enlighten with a couple ideas of who was available and/or fit the mold of your ideal acquisition.

[a700hitter]

I mean, you're really pining for Mark Kotsay?

 

.257/.291/.324./615 in 79 PA for the Sox this season?

 

Terrible. I'll bet dollars to donuts Reddick can match that line now.

...and over a longer period Kotsay would produce numbers closer to his career stas: .280/.336/.412/.748 and I don't think Reddick can perform at that level yet in the majors. Again, I am not a Kotsay fan, but he can play the OF and Kotchman can't. Cobwebs will form on Kotchman because he'll get so little use.

[rician blast]

Are you watching the garbage that Smoltz is giving us? He's managed to raise his 7.03 ERA already tonight. Penny sucks' date=' and Buchholz has shown nothing. [b']Halladay was the move.[/b] If all they wanted was Buchholz and Bard, he should have done it.

 

The fact that the FO didn't make such a move (which, from what I've read would have involved a lot more than Buch and Bard) may be indicative that the FO has reservations whether this is truly a championship caliber team even with Halliday.

[Dipre]

The fact that the FO didn't make such a move (which' date=' from what I've read would have involved a lot more than Buch and Bard) may be indicative that the FO has reservations whether this is truly a championship caliber team even with Halliday.[/quote']

 

Or maybe they simply think highly of a lot of the prospects Toronto was asking for.

 

Seriously, Toronto was asking for A LOT, and you can't go out and mortgage the future just because JP really didn't wanna trade Halladay.

[TheKilo]

...and over a longer period Kotsay would produce numbers closer to his career stas: .280/.336/.412/.748 and I don't think Reddick can perform at that level yet in the majors. Again' date=' I am not a Kotsay fan, but he can play the OF and Kotchman can't. Cobwebs will form on Kotchman because he'll get so little use.[/quote']

 

Why are you taking career stats for Kotsay into account? It's pretty clear he can no longer produce at that level.

 

He's a mid .600 OPS player with a noodle bat and an OK glove. He's not someone a team with a $100+ plus payroll should be pining for.

[Teddyballgame10]

Are you watching the garbage that Smoltz is giving us? He's managed to raise his 7.03 ERA already tonight. Penny sucks' date=' and Buchholz has shown nothing. Halladay was the move. If all they wanted was Buchholz and Bard, he should have done it.[/quote']

 

I agree Halladay was the move, but there is now way I give up Buch and Bard for him. I dont blame this on Theo I blame it on JP for being a f***ing idiot and being in denial. He should have took what we gave him. This being said I am happy we didnt give up a key prospect for V-mart and made the team better. Look at it this way, we got better, the Yankees didnt. The bottom 3 do worry me though.

[a700hitter]

Wrong.

 

I've been following Duncan since he was a prospect for the Cards.

 

He may look like a horror show, but believe it or not, from the end of last season and most of this one his defensive stats have been pretty much average.

I know that it is against the rules, but I have watched Duncan play the OF several times. I don't know if that's how you have followed him, but his average stats are hugely misleading. He plays every ball like it is a live hand grenade and those are the balls he gets to. I hope we don't have to see him in Fenway's OF to prove me right. He's a first baseman, but there was no future for first basemen on the Cards. Eric Hinske would be a huge defensive upgrade and Hinske looks like a linebacker that wandered onto the wrong field.

 

Again' date=' if you're gonna argue that we should've gotten an OF, you should be able to at least enlighten with a couple ideas of who was available and/or fit the mold of your ideal acquisition.[/quote']Okay. I give up. If I can't name which of the 120+ Outfielders were available, clearly all of them must have been untouchable and not available to be dealt. I wonder how credible it would have been if I had posted that since I had no knowledge that any OFers were available that none could've been acquired.

[TheKilo]

But you also have to make the case that every one of the 120+ outfielders is better than Chris Duncan.

 

Also, if Drew is hurt for a prolonged period of time, the Sox can go get one of these prized 120 outfielders on a waiver wire deal, much like they did with Kotsay last season and Hinske in 2006.

 

But how about waiting to make sure Drew's injury isn't that serious first?

[Dipre]

I know that it is against the rules' date=' but I have watched Duncan play the OF several times. I don't know if that's how you have followed him, but his average stats are hugely misleading. He plays every ball like it is a live hand grenade and those are the balls he gets to. I hope we don't have to see him in Fenway's OF to prove me right. He's a first baseman, but there was no future for first basemen on the Cards. Eric Hinske would be a huge defensive upgrade and Hinske looks like a linebacker that wandered onto the wrong field.[/quote']

 

But he gets to them, and catches them.

 

Play him in LF at Fenway and you severely limit the damage.

 

Okay. I give up. If I can't name which of the 120+ Outfielders were available, clearly all of them must have been untouchable and not available to be dealt. I wonder how credible it would have been if I had posted that since I had no knowledge that any OFers were available that none could've been acquired.

 

You miss my point.

 

What i meant was, what OF in your opinion was enough of an upgrade to give up young position players for?

 

Because i looked. Hard. And i honestly didn't see any.

[a700hitter]

Why are you taking career stats for Kotsay into account? It's pretty clear he can no longer produce at that level.

 

He's a mid .600 OPS player with a noodle bat and an OK glove. He's not someone a team with a $100+ plus payroll should be pining for.

It's probably just as inaccurate to pin him to his last 79 ABs.

[TheKilo]

It's probably just as inaccurate to pin him to his last 79 ABs.

 

OK, how far back should I go?

 

Should I expect him to replicate his .276/.329/.403/.732 line from last year?

 

I think we should disregard the NL numbers since the pitching is superior in the AL, and his Boston line was .226/.286/.345/.631

 

Not too different from this year's lines.

 

Not buying Kotsay as an upgrade to what we currently have.

[a700hitter]

But he gets to them, and catches them.

 

Play him in LF at Fenway and you severely limit the damage.

When you see him play the OF you will agree with me.

 

 

You miss my point.

 

What i meant was, what OF in your opinion was enough of an upgrade to give up young position players for?

 

Because i looked. Hard. And i honestly didn't see any.

I'd rather have Kapler on the roster than Kotchman. I'm not saying that he is better or more valuable than Kotchman, but what role will Kotchman have? I can't imagine that kapler would cost much. Kapler is an OFer. Duncan is not, no matter what the stats say. Kapler would be an upgrade over what we have now which is nothing. Baldelli can't play two days in a row. Missing two games for Drew is not a rare occurrence in his career. We don't need a third first baseman. That makes no sense at all.

[Dipre]

When you see him play the OF you will agree with me.

 

 

I'd rather have Kapler on the roster than Kotchman. I'm not saying that he is better or more valuable than Kotchman, but what role will Kotchman have? I can't imagine that kapler would cost much. Kapler is an OFer. Duncan is not, no matter what the stats say. Kapler would be an upgrade over what we have now which is nothing. Baldelli can't play two days in a row. Missing two games for Drew is not a rare occurrence in his career. We don't need a third first baseman. That makes no sense at all.

 

Have you not realized my man-crush for Pujols?

 

I watch a lot of Cards games, man, the only thing i'm trying to tell you is that Duncan looks a lot worse than he actually is.

 

And about Kotchman:

 

My money's on him getting flipped on the waiver period.

[a700hitter]

OK, how far back should I go?

 

Should I expect him to replicate his .276/.329/.403/.732 line from last year?

 

I think we should disregard the NL numbers since the pitching is superior in the AL, and his Boston line was .226/.286/.345/.631

 

Not too different from this year's lines.

 

Not buying Kotsay as an upgrade to what we currently have.

Any OFer would be an upgrade, because we don't have a viable OF replacement right now. Baldelli can't play two or three games in a row. We have 3 first basemen. That's at least one too many. I'd swap Kotchman for just about any OFer, because Kotchman will not be used. He is a wasted roster spot.

[a700hitter]

Have you not realized my man-crush for Pujols?

 

I watch a lot of Cards games, man, the only thing i'm trying to tell you is that Duncan looks a lot worse than he actually is.

I think you must only be watching Pujols when the cards are on. Duncan is so bad that he is the son of the coach who is the best friend of the manager and he still got sent to the minors and then traded to a team where he has no shot at playing time.

 

And about Kotchman:

 

My money's on him getting flipped on the waiver period.

I hope you are right, because he'll have to help the grounds crew at Fenway if he wants to contribute to the Red Sox.

[TheKilo]

Any OFer would be an upgrade' date=' because we don't have a viable OF replacement right now. Baldelli can't play two or three games in a row. We have 3 first basemen. That's at least one too many. I'd swap Kotchman for just about any OFer, because Kotchman will not be used. He is a wasted roster spot.[/quote']

 

Kotchman will be used as a late inning defensive replacement, like Mientkiewicz was in 2004.

 

I just don't understand the panic for a 5th OF. I really really don't.

[a700hitter]

Kotchman will be used as a late inning defensive replacement, like Mientkiewicz was in 2004.

 

I just don't understand the panic for a 5th OF. I really really don't.

Does Youkilis need a late inning defensive replacement? He's better than Kotchman. The problem with the OF is that you have one OFer Drew who has had injury problems throughout his career. Right now he has one of those nagging things. This could last a game or two, but would anyone be shocked if he missed a couple of weeks? He's way ahead of his games played pace that he has established over his career. Baldelli can't play more than twice a week. Who plays the remaining games?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Does Youkilis need a late inning defensive replacement? He's better than Kotchman.

 

But are Lowell and Martinez better than Kotchman?

[a700hitter]

But is Lowell better than Kotchman?

Lowell is still a pretty good fielder, and his mobility is coming back. His defense certainly doesn't warrant taking up a roster spot with a guy to be a late inning defensive replacement. Mientkievicz was a defensive replacement for Kevin Millar who will never be on a ballot for a gold glove.

[example1]

I can't imagine why the Sox would want a 26 year old who put up an .840 OPS at 24 who saw significant playing time (starter) for the Angels and Braves. He was at the center of the Teixeira trade and the 13th pick overall in 2001. They control him for two more arbitration seasons whereas LaRoche is a FA next year.

 

If he becomes what the other teams thought he would then they just scored themselves a very solid hitter. If he stays where he is they give up essentially two minor-leaguers they weren't going to have much use for to take a chance on a highly touted, still young player. Similar to the Wily Mo Pena move, except that they don't have to keep Kotchman on the MLB roster and he's actually a decent fielder.

 

I don't love Kotchman and I wouldn't have picked him personally, but I can see why the FO thinks this move helps the club overall.

[ORS]

Buchholz + Anyone not named Bard, and I think they should have done the deal. If Bard was a sticking point for Toronto, then it was smart to pass. Papelbon has been a ticking BSL all season. Bard is looking like good insurance should they need someone else to finish out games down the stretch and in October.

 

Speaking of insurance, this is why Kotchman makes sense. Like Kilo has mentioned, he's an ideal bench player. Not only does he play good D at his position, he also stikes out seldomly. He'll make a great PH. Which is nice, but what he really does is provide insurance for the ticking clock that is Lowell's hip. If you, and you know who I'm talking to, are going to get up on the soapbox and moan about an OF should Drew go down, at least be honest and apply that same concern to Lowell. Failure to acknowledge this benefit makes it look like bitching for the sake of bitching. Yes, Martinez can play 1B full-time if Lowell goes down, but then we don't have a backup C.

 

Not only is it a similar concern, but it is one that can't be addressed through our minor league system. Our best and closest to ready minor league prospect can play all three OF positions. We don't really have anyone showing signs of readiness at the CIF. It's hilarious, but totally unsurprising, that it's being suggested that Reddick can't replace Kotsay right now. Kotsay f***ing sucks. Full stop. I can understand favoring some experience over giving a prospect a shot, but this is beyond reason. It's pathological.

[BSN07]

B+

 

Like the V-Mart deal. CK for Laroche I agree is a lateral move.

 

 

 

If you count the Lugo trade it's and A.

[MANNYHOF24]

I like the V-mart trade, but my only concern is that a cut back on playing time for Lowell, Varitek and Ortiz could cause problems in the club house. Tito job has certainly got a lot harder in the last few weeks. That being said, this deal definitely improves the club and I'm excited to see what this team can do down the stretch.

[Dojji]

Does Youkilis need a late inning defensive replacement? He's better than Kotchman. The problem with the OF is that you have one OFer Drew who has had injury problems throughout his career. Right now he has one of those nagging things. This could last a game or two' date=' but would anyone be shocked if he missed a couple of weeks? He's way ahead of his games played pace that he has established over his career. Baldelli can't play more than twice a week. Who plays the remaining games?[/quote']

 

frankly, a700 is dead on. This IS the big unresolved issue on the roster and it is about the one area where Kotsay did any good here. We really can't count on Baldelli to be on call and I sure as heck don't want to waste Reddick on the bench.

 

Also a LIDR for a gold glover makes little sense so I don't see the need for Kotchman unless Mike Lowell goes on the DL, and Lowell's been looking a bit better lately. I don't see why we really needed Kotchman and would happily swap him for a young OF with some speed and flelxibility.

 

One of the players who's intrigued me over the years is Ryan Church. He's pretty much a poor man's JD Drew and I could see him thriving in a bench platoon role.

[BSN07]

You guys are acting as if it is impossible to get a 4th/5th OF if need be.

[BSN07]

“We engaged, in previous days, we had some things working, things we were really excited about, and a couple that got really close, but didn’t happen,’’ Epstein said. “That’s par for the course in deadline season. We shot big on a couple things, a deal that could provide maximum impact. We were very aggressive in use of our own prospects, those deals got close . . . Maybe the foundation is laid for the offseason.’

’

 

A+ for Effort though.

 

He was said to have made a half dozen offers to Seattle for Felix. Wonder how close they got? Maybe this is the deal that has the groundwork laid....drool....