Pin the date: When does Papi break out/get benched

[ORS]

Please, that is so weak, especially in light of what you are saying. Per your assumption, he's no good without them, and if that is the case, everyone will assume he was using, like you are, when his performance slipped. So, fear of getting caught makes him do something that makes everyone think he was anyway. How the f*** does that work? Do you ever think about the implications of what you say?

[Gom]

Please' date=' that is so weak, especially in light of what you are saying. Per your assumption, he's no good without them, and if that is the case, everyone will assume he was using, like you are, when his performance slipped. So, fear of getting caught makes him do something that makes everyone think he was anyway. How the f*** does that work? Do you ever think about the implications of what you say?[/quote']

 

Getting caught, and banned for 50 games, after being a beloved son of Boston wasn't worth it.

 

If you want to believe that he miraculously turned his career around after nearly being released, while teaming up with another steroid user, and then he comes crashing down to earth just two years later when stricter testing standards are introduced, that's your prerogative.

 

Add in the facts that he stated that he may have taken stuff when he was younger all but seals it for me.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Think of what his image in Boston would be if he was caught. He finally decided it wasn't worth the risk.

 

Stupidest f***ing thing i've read today. Serioously. Quit now.

 

 

After years of having drug testing in which he passed like 20 tests you're saying he all of a sudden quit now to not fail one? Wasn't steroid testing started in 03 or 04? Either way that's when he started to get good, and his highest home run total came a few years into testing. All that time through all that tests he was juicing up but passing tests and all of a sudden wants to stop this random year because he doesn't want to get caught? And that somehow causes a huge dropoff?

 

Don't be an idiot.

[ORS]

Getting caught' date=' and banned for 50 games, after being a beloved son of Boston wasn't worth it.[/quote']

This is only a restatement. It does not address the conflict I noted.

 

If you want to believe that he miraculously turned his career around after nearly being released, while teaming up with another steroid user, and then he comes crashing down to earth just two years later when stricter testing standards are introduced, that's your prerogative.

 

Add in the facts that he stated that he may have taken stuff when he was younger all but seals it for me.

Gom, you've been beating this drum since well before the decline or comment. It was already sealed.

 

As for what I believe, I believe there's a possibility he was using, and it's for one simple reason, because he was playing major league baseball. It's also possible that switching to team that preached a different approach to hitting allowed him to realize his full potential. Speaking of which, that full potential came between the ages of 27-31, which is the typical peak in a career curve. Furthermore, the potential existed. He was not a talentless scrub as you describe him. The fact that he was release says nothing. Manny Ramirez was put on irrevocable waivers. Johan Santana was picked up in the Rule V draft, so was Josh Hamilton. Teams f*** up all the time in their evaluations.

 

Here's what Ortiz has done in terms of ABs and HR in his career.

 

[table]Year|Age|AB|HR|AB/HR

1998|22|278|9|30.9

1999|23|25|0|inf

2000|24|415|10|41.5

2001|25|303|18|16.8

2002|26|412|20|20.6

2003|27|448|31|14.5

2004|28|582|41|14.2

2005|29|601|47|12.8

2006|30|558|54|10.3

2007|31|549|35|15.7

2008|32|416|23|18.1[/table]

 

I think you are guilty of looking only at the HR column and totally ignore the AB column. This improvement is not drastic, and while it's possible the difference is PEDs, it's just as possible he was given different instruction and direction from the organization. Especially when you look at this MiLB performance. He hit 31 HR at 2 levels as a 21 y/o.

 

Predicted Response: The MiLB was because of PEDs from the DR, and he quit doing them because he didn't want the Twin Cities to think poorly of him for doing something that wouldn't have been discovered because it wasn't against the rules at the time.

[jacksonianmarch]

I find it interesting that anyone could try and predict PED use or defend a player against PED use. It seems like a couple yrs ago, ARod, Manny and PEDs were being discussed/defended from both sides. I bet Papi did roids or HGH at some point in his career. Either in the DR, in the minors or the majors. But I wouldnt be shocked at all.

[ORS]

I'm not defending him, per se. I don't care if it turns out he did it because I came to the conclusion that nobody would surprise me if revealed a long time ago. I just think assertions, and that's what it is from Gom at this point, we've passed the accusations and he speaks of it in terms of matter of fact, require more than what has been applied in this case.

[ms_sox]

I'm not defending him' date=' per se. I don't care if it turns out he did it because I came to the conclusion that nobody would surprise me if revealed a long time ago. I just think assertions, and that's what it is from Gom at this point, we've passed the accusations and he speaks of it in terms of matter of fact, require more than what has been applied in this case.[/quote']

Exactly.

 

One could argue possible stat trends all day, with different interpretation beliefs being made about what they may or may not say about steroid use, but suspicion and possibility does not equal fact and you can't make it be so. Unless/until a player is caught via drug tests etc., we'll never know for sure.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm not defending him' date=' per se. I don't care if it turns out he did it because I came to the conclusion that nobody would surprise me if revealed a long time ago. I just think assertions, and that's what it is from Gom at this point, we've passed the accusations and he speaks of it in terms of matter of fact, require more than what has been applied in this case.[/quote']

 

You continue to try and prove to Gom how stupid he truly is. Its like trying to teach the blind how to see. It can't happen. I just gave up dealing with his antics. He's delusional and I'll continue to remind him of it.

[Dipre]

You continue to try and prove to Gom how stupid he truly is. Its like trying to teach the blind how to see. It can't happen. I just gave up dealing with his antics. He's delusional and I'll continue to remind him of it.

 

Owned. Hard.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You continue to try and prove to Gom how stupid he truly is. Its like trying to teach the blind how to see. It can't happen. I just gave up dealing with his antics. He's delusional and I'll continue to remind him of it.

pot meet kettle

 

 

You, Gom, and D'ohny are talksox's Three Stooges. 26 to 6 is Shimp.

[Dipre]

pot meet kettle

 

 

You, Gom, and D'ohny are talksox's Three Stooges. 26 to 6 is Shimp.

 

As true (and funny) as that statement may be, at least Jacko, Diony and 26 contribute more than insults, ******** and annoyance to the site.

 

I suggest Gom grows up and switch his panties for a pair of big boy boxers.

[Gom]

LOL! I love this thread.

 

Jacko, the clueless idiot, can't find an ally anywhere.

 

Look...there is no proof. I know this. It's just the circumstances of the evidence points strongly to it. Would it stand up in a court of law? No way.

 

I think Orza tipped off the players. I also think that Manny was taking the whole time. It was just that he got caught now. Testing has gotten better, more stringent, and there is a genuine attempt to catch the rule-breakers.

 

I respect ORS's opinion. He realizes that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence but no proof. That, to me is fine. I mean, come on...Posada is so blatantly obvious, with his body breaking down and a great season at 37 years old?

 

The game is dirty, and it's high time they cleaned it up. However, I think it's ridiculous to ever assume that Ortiz, at 32 will ever rebound. If he doesn't it's kind of obvious.

 

I sincerely hope he does, though. I really hope I'm wrong, in spite of the fact I'm a Yankee fan. It's just bad for baseball when the superstars are all cheaters.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

As true (and funny) as that statement may be, at least Jacko, Diony and 26 contribute more than insults, ******** and annoyance to the site.

 

I suggest Gom grows up and switch his panties for a pair of big boy boxers.

D'ohny isn't creative enough to come up with a legit insult. But his posts are overflowing with the ******** and annoyance.

[Gom]

As true (and funny) as that statement may be, at least Jacko, Diony and 26 contribute more than insults, ******** and annoyance to the site.

 

I suggest Gom grows up and switch his panties for a pair of big boy boxers.

 

I'm out for the night, dinner and drinks with the woman.

 

Diaper...make sure you call ahead and tell your cousin not to overcook my steak. Can't find good help these days....

[Dipre]

I'm out for the night, dinner and drinks with the woman.

 

Diaper...make sure you call ahead and tell your cousin not to overcook my steak. Can't find good help these days....

 

Sure you can.......

 

Your lawn-mowing skills are a tribute to excellence.

[BoSox21]

I'm out for the night, dinner and drinks with the woman.

 

dont stay out too late. escort rates go up after 11

[jacksonianmarch]

His cousin wont overcook your steak so long as you drive your taxi to the right restaurant and get him there on time. There might even be a tip in it for you.

[Dipre]

The forum unites against Gom.

 

Poetic justice......something Jorge Luis Borges would write about.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sometimes opposing forces must join to rid a common enemy.

[Cocos Disciples]

I love this board. Just sayin'.

[BoSox21]

divided along uniform lines, united along distaste for imbeciles

[example1]

LOL! I love this thread.

 

Jacko, the clueless idiot, can't find an ally anywhere.

 

 

I'll be Jacko's ally. The thing that Jacko does that you don't is that he states his opinions as opinions. You state things and then talk about how you are able to see above the clouds of partisanship. You, above all others, can see above any bias that people may have and have some sort of metaphysical knowledge of how things actually work.

 

Jacko is wrong, a lot, but at least he acknowledges he's subjective just like the rest of us. Your god-like perspective, coupled with constantly reminding everyone that you believe you have a god-like perspective, is what makes so many people want to prove you wrong.

 

Look...there is no proof. I know this. It's just the circumstances of the evidence points strongly to it. Would it stand up in a court of law? No way.

 

I think Orza tipped off the players. I also think that Manny was taking the whole time. It was just that he got caught now. Testing has gotten better, more stringent, and there is a genuine attempt to catch the rule-breakers.

 

I agree with you here.

 

I respect ORS's opinion. He realizes that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence but no proof. That, to me is fine. I mean, come on...Posada is so blatantly obvious, with his body breaking down and a great season at 37 years old?

 

Agreed

 

The game is dirty, and it's high time they cleaned it up. However, I think it's ridiculous to ever assume that Ortiz, at 32 will ever rebound. If he doesn't it's kind of obvious.

 

Here's where you and I (and ORS) disagree. You seem to be of the opinion that the ONLY reason Ortiz was ever successful was because of steroids. Those of us who have watched him enough realize that not only did he have tremendous power and physical tools (with or without any PED usage, he was gifted physically), but he also developed a really, really good eye. This may have been something he had when he was with the Twins, but like so many other players who have come to the Sox recently, he really, really showed his superior plate control as a Sox player. ORS argues that this may be because he thrived with their coaching style.

 

Hell, the Twins sat Ortiz regularly because they prefered Meinkewitz (sp?) and his glove to Ortiz's patience. They encouraged him to be a singles hitter and likely prefered that he not strike out looking. The Red Sox, in contrast, seem to make their players comfortable with the idea of striking out if their approach at the plate is appropriate. Thus players take more pitches and have a lot more patience at the plate, and ultimately see more pitches.

 

I sincerely hope he does, though. I really hope I'm wrong, in spite of the fact I'm a Yankee fan. It's just bad for baseball when the superstars are all cheaters.

 

Whether he bounces back and whether he cheated are two different things. I'm willing to bet that at some point Ortiz used PEDs. What you don't like is when players stop using and they fall off a cliff. I can understand that, I don't like it either.

 

I tend to think that Ortiz is in a horrible slump that may or may not be associated with PED usage. I think he will hit HRs again and will get it figured out to some degree... but that's just me. Perhaps he has hit his last HR ever. :dunno:

 

Of course, somehow he managed to hit 3 HRs in spring training and reports say that he's still hitting them out in BP, so it's not like between last year and now he simply cannot do it anymore.

 

Meanwhile, A-Rod returns and looks bigger than ever and is smashing HRs again. I could see A-Rod just saying "f*** it, I've already been caught, what more could go wrong if I use (and pay someone lots of money to help me avoid getting caught)?"

[rician blast]

I'm out for the night, dinner and drinks with the woman.

 

 

Don't forget the air pump and emergency patch kit...just in case she springs a leak in the Burger King parking lot.

[YanksHater213]

Lucchino was at our school today, speaking for graduation, and he gave the president of my school some sort of bat or something, and some kid said kinda loud near the front that he should give it to Ortiz instead so he stops sucking for lack of a better term/not remembering the exact wording. Lucchino was flustered a bit to say the least.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Lucchino was at our school today' date=' speaking for graduation, and he gave the president of my school some sort of bat or something, and some kid said kinda loud near the front that he should give it to Ortiz instead so he stops sucking for lack of a better term/not remembering the exact wording. Lucchino was flustered a bit to say the least.[/quote']

Whoever said that has balls, I'll give 'em that.

[a700hitter]

I'm out for the night, dinner and drinks with the woman.

 

Diaper...make sure you call ahead and tell your cousin not to overcook my steak. Can't find good help these days....

Don't forget to allow time for the beating.

[Teddyballgame10]

I think Gom is a much better poster than Jacko, Jacko thinks morons like Hughes and Wang are good when at least Gom can admitt they suck. I think Gom is less bias but thats just me.

 

Thats not to say I think they are both good posters and listen to thme both.

[Teddyballgame10]

Anyway do I think Ortiz was on Roides?, yea its possible he was and possible he wasn't. A man of his physic can break down quickly whether he was or wasn't on roids. Yea he came to Boston and broke out all of a sudden, it could be for a number of reasons, sterorids, better coaching, better lineup, w.e. He is clearly off them now so he is definitely one of those guys we will never know for sure. I am going to say innocent until proven guilty because that is how we work in this country. Gom has a great point about Posada but as much as I hate the Yankees I'm going to say the same thing. I love baseball to much and I'll give mostly anyone the benefit of the doubt except players that retired before testing started exept for Bonds. McGuire, that whole crew. I even gave A-Rod the benefit of the doubt most of the time (you can see this in earlier posts). Anyway I hope Oritz and Puljoles are clean for the sake of the game.

 

Nevertheless the futre of the game lays in the hands of players like Braun, Wright, Pedroia and Longoria.

[example1]

I think Gom is a much better poster than Jacko, Jacko thinks morons like Hughes and Wang are good when at least Gom can admitt they suck.

 

There are lots of people who think Wang and Hughes are good pitchers at their core. Just because Wang is injury prone and sucks this season for whatever reason doesn't mean he won't be sticking it up the Sox collective asses in the next few months or years. Same goes for Hughes.

[Dipre]

I think Gom is a much better poster than Jacko, Jacko thinks morons like Hughes and Wang are good when at least Gom can admitt they suck. I think Gom is less bias but thats just me.

 

Thats not to say I think they are both good posters and listen to thme both.

 

You made both Jacko and Gom look like geniuses with the coherence factor of your post.

 

That is extremely difficult to do.

 

And FYI, Wang is an above-average pitcher and Hughes has the chance to turn into one as well, they're just not as good as Jacko makes them out to be, but everyone's biased towards their team's players/prospects.