Postgame grumblings thread

[BoSox21]

If a team scores an average of 6 runs a game, that team will score 972 runs over the course of an entire season. It's far too unreasonable to expect that out of any team. This team has a good offense and it is good enough that it will bail out an off-night of pitching from time to time.

[das11209]

Complaints with no solutions.

 

 

Is not that the whole point of the thread?

 

Coming to the point - you and I both really wanted Mark T - that would have made an impact on the team. We could have signed Bobby A @ 5 mill. and we could have upgraded catcher position. I am sure the FO did whatever they could - but bottomline is team has not improved since last year as per as offense. We actually lost a bit with the departure of Coco.

 

Current line-up has too many question marks with Lowell, Papi, Tek, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Drew(health) etc. and we are sorta hoping for a best case scenario where everything works out. If it does not it will not be a quick fix - we might have to do some rebuilding. As far as power is concerned - we seem to agree that Manny is good riddance and Papi will never be as good as 2003-2007 - we just don't know how to replace or compensate for their production. That might make an impact on W-L columns. If our starting pitchers can deliver and our bullpen can hold small leads - we will be in good shape. If they do not - I just don't see this offense making some late comebacks and winning lots of games from behind - I guess that is just me.

[das11209]

This team has a good offense and it is good enough that it will bail out an off-night of pitching from time to time.

 

Disagree - but I hope you are right.

[BoSox21]

Disagree if you want but just because the best 3-4 combo, maybe ever, is gone doesn't make this offense a complete piece of crap

[das11209]

Disagree if you want but just because the best 3-4 combo' date=' maybe ever, is gone doesn't make this offense a complete piece of crap[/quote']

 

They are not piece of crap at all but they may not be able to bail out pitching as much as you are hoping. I am sure they will score enough to win when the pitching/defense is spot on.

[ORS]

Most teams will struggle ORS - not much doubt about that. As I said - our offense is OK only if pitching can do what it is supposed to. I gave the example of the Yankees where though they have a fantastic starting pitching - the offense can ( and will ) carry the team if the pitching falters. Our margin of error is less than them. Add to that that we are in the toughest division, the Yankees have improved ( and we have not) and Tampa does not look like they lost a bit from last year. So our benchmark should be better than the rest of the league.

 

I understand that it is not 2003 any more. I am not looking to see long balls every night - just saying what the team has to do to win that's all.

Where do you come by the part in bold?

 

Statistically, there's no case for it. The Yankee offense scored 789 runs with an RC of 832 last year. ARod will be out for the same amount of time, Teixeira (134 RC) replaces Giambi (94 RC), but then Nady needs to replace Abreu's 106 RC (doubtful). Figure things break right for them with Matsui, Posada, and Damon, and what are we talking about, 930 runs?

 

The Sox RC was 927 last year. This is with them getting a .650 OPS out of their catchers, .718 out of SS, and Ortiz being hurt half the year. Any improvement there will cover any dropoff from Youk or Pedroia not being able to replicate what they did. Bay should easily replicate the 7.6 RC/G Manny put up last year.

 

I agree that the Sox didn't do much to improve, at least not in terms of upgrades "on paper". No, any improvement will come from progression for Ellsbury and Lowrie, and/or bounce backs from Ortiz or Varitek. The potential for improvement is there, but at worst, you can say the expectation should be that they don't experience a dropoff.

 

Back to my question, where do you see them having a distinct offensive advantage?

[Cocos Disciples]

Coming to the point - you and I both really wanted Mark T - that would have made an impact on the team. We could have signed Bobby A @ 5 mill. and we could have upgraded catcher position. I am sure the FO did whatever they could - but bottomline is team has not improved since last year as per as offense. We actually lost a bit with the departure of Coco.

 

How would signing Bobby Abreu work exactly?

[David Bowie]

Disagree if you want but just because the best 3-4 combo' date=' maybe ever, is gone doesn't make this offense a complete piece of crap[/quote']

 

Not ever, do you follow baseball at all or just the red sox?

[BoSox21]

Sorry, I wasn't around to see Ruth and Gehrig but Manny and Ortiz were among the best ever.

 

Besides, don't pick two words out of my argument when they have very little to do with the conversation, you trolling bastard

[David Bowie]

Im not trolling anybody. I was being serious.

[Teddyballgame10]

They are not piece of crap at all but they may not be able to bail out pitching as much as you are hoping. I am sure they will score enough to win when the pitching/defense is spot on.

 

I agree with this. There are a lot of question marks in this lineup but if all goes well we'll be fine. I'm optimistic but the offence could be a weakness this year.

[das11209]

As I was reading the responses - I think some posters thought I have the opinion that the Red Sox should score 6 runs consistently. That's not what I meant - I was trying to say that they will consistently find it very hard to score 6 runs when they need it to secure a win. In fact though it is very early - they are 0-3 when they needed to score 6 runs to get a win and 0-4 in terms of scoring 6 runs in a game. I applogize if this came out the wrong way.

 

ORS - I saw the stats - I think the Yankee line-up is better because they do not have as many question marks as the Sox line-up has. I think they under-performed last year in terms of offense and they will pick-up a notch this year.

[diony]

ORS - I saw the stats - I think the Yankee line-up is better because they do not have as many question marks as the Sox line-up has. I think they under-performed last year in terms of offense and they will pick-up a notch this year.

 

Finally someone without RSN goggles.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Finally someone without RSN googles.

lol

[Dipre]

Finally someone without RSN googles.

 

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h184/krevster/Insult%20pics/english-motherfucker.gif

[ORS]

Finally someone without RSN googles.

It's funny how quickly you will abandon stats when they don't tell you what you want.

 

Das, please elaborate on the underperformance and the question marks. Who, by how much? What you failed to account for in your one line thoughtless* reply is that I've upgraded their perfomance by 100 runs on the season from last year, and that just gets them into the same ballpark as the Sox (at least in terms of what you should expect on the raw stats). In other words, I addressed it, but you ignored that.

 

*I call it thoughtless because it's the usual star gazing drivel you get from a casual fan, and maybe that's all you are. If so, just say so and I won't waste my time.

[Dipre]

It's funny how quickly you will abandon stats when they don't tell you what you want.

 

Das, please elaborate on the underperformance and the question marks. Who, by how much? What you failed to account for in your one line thoughtless* reply is that I've upgraded their perfomance by 100 runs on the season from last year, and that just gets them into the same ballpark as the Sox (at least in terms of what you should expect on the raw stats). In other words, I addressed it, but you ignored that.

 

*I call it thoughtless because it's the usual star gazing drivel you get from a casual fan, and maybe that's all you are. If so, just say so and I won't waste my time.

 

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p279/Bosco3379/Forums/owned.jpg

[jacksonianmarch]

ORS, I think you could make the case for both a progression or a regression from every lineup slot in the sox lineup. So assuming that the sox would at least repeat 927 runs may be a bit premature

[ORS]

The same could be said for the Yankee lineup, but I see no objection to me tacking 100 RC onto their total. Interesting.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not in every slot. The only significant time loss that you should expect to get back was 40 games by Papi and 40 games by Lowell. Drew played only 110 games last yr, but he might again repeat that due to his fragility and the fact that his back is still bothering him. And nobody can say for sure that either will return to pre-injury levels. Where, for NY, we lost a yr of Posada and 60 games from Matsui. And the replacements for both were a main cause of our drop in production. Even if we get a less powerful Matsui or Posada, both will be massively improved over our replacements. We also had probably the biggest non-injury poor performance in Cano, who is off to a big start. ARod is the only concern right now, and we'll see how strong he comes back. I'd say, we are due for a massive improvement from our 2008 levels. The sox have 2 older players coming back from injury in Papi and Lowell. But they also got career performances from Pedroia and Youkilis. You saw Ellsbury get exposed also, which from the leadoff spot wont help. They also got rid of Manny, who was a force and got Bay, who has been solid, but isnt in Manny's league. I'd still say the sox are right around 900 runs, but I think they are a bit lower than their levels from a yr ago.

 

We also get a full yr from Nady, we added Swisher and Tex yet subtract Abreu and GIambi. I wouldnt say that that is a dropoff. Regardless, both teams have their questions. Both teams have older guys in big spots. Both teams have older players coming off injury seasons. And I would be surprised if there is more than 30 runs separating our teams offenses.

[das11209]

Finally someone without RSN goggles.

 

This is a Red Sox forum - what do you expect? YES message board is way more biased and rhetorical. Gnerally I respect the posters here most of them at least backs up their views with rational and statistics.

[ORS]

Lowell is 18 months older than ARod, but he's the only one whose return level of play is in question, and he's the one that's actually had the surgery required to make him whole. Massive contradiction.

 

Posada played 51 games last year. It's an overstatement that you get him back for the whole year, and his injury should limit his games as the backstop.

 

Matsui, like Ortiz, is dealing with a wrist and knee injury in the last two years. But Ortiz may never be the same, while Matsui only may lose a little power. Massive double standard.

 

Nady+Teixeira is about equivlent to Giambi+Abreu on paper. I agree it's no dropoff, but it's no sure improvement either, yet you are calling for massive improvement.

 

That leaves Cano, who I agree should be better than last year, but this is no sure bet, just like it's no sure bet that Pedroia and Youkilis can't repeat what they did last year, yet this assumption is gospel to you. Hell, your criteria for optimism with Cano is on their side too, as both have started the year well. But it only counts for Hollywood, right?

 

And, again, with little roster turnover and some give and take on their question marks, the most reasonable assumption is the Sox are about the same. I've conceded and said the Yankees improve by 100 runs, and you still aren't happy.

 

I've taken nothing, given a ton, this puts them at equal, and you still maintain they are clearly better. This is why I'm such a dick to you. Your view on the return from an injury, the possibility of repeating good performance, the likelihood of a rebound, etc, etc, etc, all of it is solely dependent on one thing and one thing only, which uniform the player wears. It gets old.

[jacksonianmarch]

Meh. Your points are all well and good. But what you refuse to consider, albeit with your rosy red glasses on, is that the significant dropoff in offensive performance was mainly due to the lack of quality replacements from a yr ago. Molina played 100 games last yr and put up a .576OPS. Even if Posada isnt up to his usual .850 or so OPS, he will automatically be better offensively. Now add in a full yr of Matsui, Nady, and Swisher while subtracting Abreu is an upgrade. Dont try to mask it. Take those glasses off ORS. Tex>Giambi. Upgrade. Cano of 09 should be better than the Cano of 08. ARod is on pace for late April. Even if he is only at a .900OPS range, he'll still be extremely useful.

 

Lets take a look at something here.

 

1. Jeter vs Ellsbury--->Jeter all the way

2. Damon vs Pedroia--->Pedroia, albeit not as much as one would expect (.869 vs .836)

3. ARod vs Papi----> ARod

4. Tex vs Youkilis---> based on 08, push, based on career, Tex

5. Matsui vs Drew---> Drew, when he plays

6. Posada vs Bay--->Bay

7. Nady/Swisher vs Lowell---> I'd take our offensive duo vs the sox 3B

8. Cano vs Varitek---> Cano

9. Gardner vs Lowrie---> Push, both are technically in their first full yrs in the bigs

 

Looks pretty even to me.

[diony]

You should compare them by position.

[ORS]

I believe I said they should be about even in my response to das when he was moaning about how the Yankees had a significant offensive advantage. Thanks for all this rhetorical bluster where we get back to my original point.

 

Also, you can only play 3 people at LF, RF, and DH. Last year, for the most party, you did it with Abreu, Damon, Matsui+Nady. This year you'll do it, for the most part, with Nady, Damon, Matsui and Swisher off the bench. Abreu is the best offensive player in that group, how is removing him a clear upgrade?

[jacksonianmarch]

Eh, missed that. I am trying to prove an equality argument. I didnt see that you advocated for such

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, Abreu is not the best offensive player of the bunch. He wasnt the best offensive OFer on his own team. Nady was. And Swisher's history prior to 2008 would suggest he could replace Abreu offensively as well.

[das11209]

It's funny how quickly you will abandon stats when they don't tell you what you want.

 

Das, please elaborate on the underperformance and the question marks. Who, by how much? What you failed to account for in your one line thoughtless* reply is that I've upgraded their perfomance by 100 runs on the season from last year, and that just gets them into the same ballpark as the Sox (at least in terms of what you should expect on the raw stats). In other words, I addressed it, but you ignored that.

 

*I call it thoughtless because it's the usual star gazing drivel you get from a casual fan, and maybe that's all you are. If so, just say so and I won't waste my time.

 

ORS - I get to my conclusions from observation and intution - so I am probably a casual fan. We still have some of them in the site(VA Sox Fan comes to mind).

 

Not that there is anything wrong with statistics - I enjoy all those posts..

[ORS]

Also' date=' Abreu is not the best offensive player of the bunch. He wasnt the best offensive OFer on his own team. Nady was. And Swisher's history prior to 2008 would suggest he could replace Abreu offensively as well.[/quote']

Don't pull that half a season in Pittsburg BS and come back with what Swisher "could" do at his best. You know Abreu is consistently a more productive player than either of them.

[riverside sluggers]

With Lowrie in a 1 for 18 skid, I think Tito should do a minor tweak. Tek bat 8th, Lowrie 9th. At this point I trust Tek more with RISP than Lowrie. For a guy that has a good strike zone eye, he's having too much strikeouts. The kid is pressing too hard. Lugo must be sitting pretty right now