Plan B

[example1]

Through 106 IP in the Major Leagues, Wonderboy Hughes has been horrific. He has shown nothing of his dazzling minor league stuff in the bigs. Perhaps, just perhaps he is just a tad overrated?

 

Maybe. He's also 22 years old. His MiLB numbers are as good as anyone, and given his age and the success he had at that age I see plenty of reason for optimism (if I were a Yankee fan).

 

I don't know how anyone can be sure Hughes will be a TREMENDOUS starter when all indications, so far, point to Hughes not being able to get Major League hitters out on consistent basis...much like Clay Buchholz. As an aside..Clay has better stuff.

 

I certainly didn't say he I was sure he will be a tremendous starter. Re-read what I wrote:

 

There is no doubt that Hughes is a SP, and you and I have (historically) agreed that Hughes should be a tremendous starter.

 

I said that 1) there is no doubt he is a SP (whereas Joba may be a reliever or SP) and 2) Jacko and I have historically agreed that he should be a tremendous starter. Not that he will be, but given his stuff and prior performance he should be.

 

I still believe that. I think that if the Yankees moved him for anything other than a really nice player coming back they stand to be selling low on him. That said, I can understand injury concerns about him and would see that as the most significant mitigating factor to his minor league numbers. At his age I wouldn't give up on him, unless there is reason to believe his injuries will reduce his velocity.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention: I hope I'm totally, 100% wrong and that the Yankees keep relying on him and that he's one of the games biggest flops. :thumbsup:

[Dojji]

As an aside..Clay has better stuff.

 

Both Clay and Hughes have the odds on their side to "get it" eventually. A lot of starters hit the rocks early, especially if like both Hughes and Clay, they had limited AAA time. (this is a mistake I note Theo is NOT repeating with Bowden)

 

For examples, see: Zack Greinke, Jon Lester, Curt Schilling, just about every power lefty in history from Randy Johnson to Sandy Koufax to Johan Santana

[26 to 6]

Jim Rice' date=' and his avatar is Josh Beckett.[/quote']

I knew the avatar was Beckett, but until learning that Edward is Rice's middle name I thought he was referring to Jimmy Edmonds for some reason ....I didn't understand why he had HOF2009 there. lol my bad, got it now. Had a smal brainfart.

[26 to 6]

Long tenured members? Is that supposed to mean something>? Just because you shat 5,000 hideous posts onto a message board means you are worthy of some sort of preferential treatment? What the hell are you doing on a Red Sox message board? Have you been disowned by even the filth of all fandom...Yankee fans?

 

Being here longer than you doesn't entitle me to preferential treatment, but when you post somewhere long enough you develop a reputation and the people on the board become familiar with you. People here know how I feel about the Yankees and that I am the furthest thing from a bandwagon fan possible. As for why I am here, not that it really pertains to you but I enjoy the conversation here with the respectable Red Sox fans who don't have their heads up their asses and who aren't filled with anger and bitterness towards the Yankees after generations of domination ready to take it out on any Yankee fan they can. A lot of the Yankee boards I came across weren't very good frankly, so I decided to join here.

 

I see many of you bragging about having more time here..who cares? I had 2K posts at SOSH before being banned for calling one of their mods a fat, elitist pig. He was.. It is MUCH harder to get a membership and STAY there. They ban you for putting up incorrect statistics so please spare me the "I am a LONG tenured member at SoxTalk"..

oh wow, aren't you cool!

 

I am quite confident I have more baseball knowledge than anyone on this site. You can save the haughty attitude.

Haughty attitude? Look in the mirror my dude. Man is that some ego you have there.

 

And again...your screen name is deceiving since you barely saw any of the titles and are bragging about teams you knew nothing about.

My username isn't deceiving in the least. It lists the number of championships held by the Yankees and Red Sox, respactively at the time of my registration here. And how do you know what I know? Who are you to judge me on my fanhood and what you assume I don't know. Just because a lot of casual baseball fans; many of whom are Yankee fans, admittedly aren't familiar with the history of the game and their respective team doesn't mean I fall into that category. I fell in love with the game at a very young age, and although I only have 20 years on this earth I spent every extra hour of my childhood studying every facet of the game that I could. I have an in depth knowledge and understanding of many areas of the game of baseball; not only as a sport, but as a business, as an American institution, as a symbol of historical growth over the years, etc. I could tell you the most some of the most trivial details of this games history over the past 150 years.

 

So keeping in mind I was a baseball junkie and let my mind absorb as much about baseball as possible over the past 20 years, do you really think I wouldn't take the time to learn about the history of my own favorite team. You really don't think I'm very familiar with players spanning the entire course of this franchise's history. You need to step down from your high horse Mr. "I got banned from SOSH, I'm so cool" and learn a thing or two before you judge. Just because I don't put every aspect of my baseball knowledge on display here on this board, and becuase while I do tend to shy away from the overanalytical statistics and that aspect of the game doesn't mean I don't know how to interpert general stats, and it damn sure doesn't mean I'm clueless when it comes to this game and it's place in American history, because if that's what you believe you're sadly mistaken. I wear my heart for baseball on my sleeve, as I do with my love of the Yankees, and if that rubs some of you guys the wrong way then so be it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'm having a good time here at talksox though. Mods are definitely far more down to earth. Case and point' date=' I don't even know who's a moderator and who isn't.[/quote']

 

Bolded username = moderator.

 

 

 

And whoever said they thought his name was referencing Jim Edmonds... you're not alone there.

[rician blast]

Red Sox fans who don't have their heads up their asses and who aren't filled with anger and bitterness towards the Yankees after generations of domination ready to take it out on any Yankee fan they can.

 

Generally Red Sox fans do not like the type of fan you're attemtping to describe....however, speaking on behalf of Sox fans, our distaste for that sort of fan is tempered by an understanding that much of their resentment for all things Yankee is a direct result of the childish and belittling treatment they've received by arrogant, egotistical, bandwagon Yankee fans.

 

I grew up in the New Haven area...pretty much the Mason-Dixon line between Sox and Yankee fans. My neighborhood was about 60% Sox fans/40% Yankee fans. The Yankee fans were ruthless...we were subjected to constant ball-breaking by "fans" who usually couldn't name 5 players on any seasons squad. As a result, some Sox fans have built up a serious dislike for Yankee fans.

 

Personally? The more I hear a Yankee fan chirp...you know, the Buckner stuff, Bucky Dent, 26 to 7, all that garbage...the more I laugh and the more it confirms that some fans just have no f***ing life, especially since their own sense of value is derived by what other men accomplish on the field of play.

 

So while I understand why some Sox fans really get worked up about Yankee fans and their "dominance", I agree with you, there's no reason for the bitterness if they'd just step back and realize what many of those Yankee "fans" really stand for.

[Dipre]

Yeah, i think we're taking things way too seriously, so how about all of us step back, those of legal age drink a cold one, the underage drink a coke, and let's all get back to talking some baseball here.

[JimEdHOF2009]

Most of m

Generally Red Sox fans do not like the type of fan you're attemtping to describe....however, speaking on behalf of Sox fans, our distaste for that sort of fan is tempered by an understanding that much of their resentment for all things Yankee is a direct result of the childish and belittling treatment they've received by arrogant, egotistical, bandwagon Yankee fans.

 

I grew up in the New Haven area...pretty much the Mason-Dixon line between Sox and Yankee fans. My neighborhood was about 60% Sox fans/40% Yankee fans. The Yankee fans were ruthless...we were subjected to constant ball-breaking by "fans" who usually couldn't name 5 players on any seasons squad. As a result, some Sox fans have built up a serious dislike for Yankee fans.

 

Personally? The more I hear a Yankee fan chirp...you know, the Buckner stuff, Bucky Dent, 26 to 7, all that garbage...the more I laugh and the more it confirms that some fans just have no f***ing life, especially since their own sense of value is derived by what other men accomplish on the field of play.

 

So while I understand why some Sox fans really get worked up about Yankee fans and their "dominance", I agree with you, there's no reason for the bitterness if they'd just step back and realize what many of those Yankee "fans" really stand for.

 

My distaste for Yankee fans stems from the Pre-2004 Yankee fan arrogance. You would think that after 2004 and 2007 Yankee fans would be a bit more humble.. This is not the case.. Most Yankee fans still believe they are a tier above every other team and fanbase and no amount of World Series titles and/or empirical evidence will sway their opinion that they are the elite franchise...even if they sit home watching the Sox in October.. There is always an excuse.. This year it was Wang going down. Just once I would like to hear a Yankee fan say.."The Red Sox are just flat-out better". BTW, nobody was as banged up as the Red Sox down the stretch.

[26 to 6]

Generally Red Sox fans do not like the type of fan you're attemtping to describe....however, speaking on behalf of Sox fans, our distaste for that sort of fan is tempered by an understanding that much of their resentment for all things Yankee is a direct result of the childish and belittling treatment they've received by arrogant, egotistical, bandwagon Yankee fans.

 

I grew up in the New Haven area...pretty much the Mason-Dixon line between Sox and Yankee fans. My neighborhood was about 60% Sox fans/40% Yankee fans. The Yankee fans were ruthless...we were subjected to constant ball-breaking by "fans" who usually couldn't name 5 players on any seasons squad. As a result, some Sox fans have built up a serious dislike for Yankee fans.

 

Personally? The more I hear a Yankee fan chirp...you know, the Buckner stuff, Bucky Dent, 26 to 7, all that garbage...the more I laugh and the more it confirms that some fans just have no f***ing life, especially since their own sense of value is derived by what other men accomplish on the field of play.

 

So while I understand why some Sox fans really get worked up about Yankee fans and their "dominance", I agree with you, there's no reason for the bitterness if they'd just step back and realize what many of those Yankee "fans" really stand for.

Well said, and the feelings of those Red Sox fans is certainly more than understandable. It's one thing to be out at the Stadium for a game and to engage in that kind of banter in the spirit of fun and cheering your team on, but when it leaves there and develops in the streets, message boards, and our personal lives it really is uncalled for. And I admit, I'm somewhat guilty to an extent. When I hear a Sox fan say to me "Yankees Suck!" or something to that effect I sometimes can't help myself but to remind them of the historical differences in terms of success. But it is a rare occurrence, point being that we are all guilty of it to some extent. And to some extent it's ok, but there is a fine line that is crossed all too often.

 

Just once I would like to hear a Yankee fan say.."The Red Sox are just flat-out better". BTW, nobody was as banged up as the Red Sox down the stretch.

All things aside, including injuries and such, the 2007 and 2008 Red Sox were flat out better than the Yankees.

..happy?

 

Don't be mad that I didn't include 2004 in that statement, but I still truthfully believe that the 2004 Yankees were a better club than the 2004 Red Sox. Greanted, the Sox won the Series, overcame their defecit to the yankees and staged one of the greatest postseason performances in Baseball history, but as is usually the case the Champ is not the best all-around team, but the team that plays the best and gets hot at the right time. I wouldn't dare try to take anything away from that 2004 team and what they accomplished, but I do believe we were better. We just got beat.

 

And yeah, the Sox were beat up down the stretch, but nobody was as beat up as the Yanks were all season lol...let's remember that. We fell short but we made a nice push and kept our heads above water all season. Had to be somebody, I figure it was just our turn this time around.

 

Yeah, i think we're taking things way too seriously, so how about all of us step back, those of legal age drink a cold one, the underage drink a coke, and let's all get back to talking some baseball here.

Sounds like a plan! :thumbsup:

[Dipre]

Sounds like a plan! :thumbsup:

 

 

Glad to see you agree with me.

[Keeper]

 

Sabathia

Wang

Burnett

Pettitte

Hughes/??/

 

That to me seems like it should be the rotation.

 

What about Aceves? I haven't really seen him pitch, and he's only had 4 starts, but his numbers look pretty good.

[jacksonianmarch]

Do you love the idea of Joba in the rotation? It seems to me like the Yankees would be best served with him as the set-up man and eventually work his way into a closer role. It reminds me a lot of the Sox situation with Papelbon' date=' when they thought he would be a valuable starter but ended up keeping him in the pen. Joba is a tremendous talent with a great head on his shoulders. If they're worried about his durability it seems like he would be best used in the pen, where their depth seems a bit weak anyway. [/quote']

 

I dont like labelling guys relievers unless they've always been a reliever or unless they fail as a starter. Joba has a big frame, a big fastball and 2 plus offspeed offerings as well as pretty good command. That sounds like a starter to me. Now if he shows a propensity to get injured when we put him exclusively in the rotation, then I'm cool with him moving to the pen as a lights out reliever. But he proved last yr that he can be a shutdown starter. His numbers were sick in his first crack at starting at any level above AA

 

He had two "starts" where he transitioned from relief to starting and threw 62 and 78 pitches apiece. Once he reached the 80 pitch threshold, he was lights out.

 

58.1IP 54H 17ER 20BB 66K 2.62ERA 1.27WHIP 10.2K/9IP. Those are ace type numbers at his first crack in the rotation. It isnt that he failed as a starter. He just got hurt probably from ramping up too quickly and being yanked around from pen to rotation to pen. If handled properly, I fully expect him to be a top tier starting pitcher. He's got the size. He has the stuff and he has the mentality. Gotta give him the shot

 

 

 

Use him in high leverage situations, because the leverage in innings 1-5 usually isn't as high and can be handled by a more 'average' pitcher. He will make up much of the value he loses with fewer innings if he is literally winning games for them in the 7th and 8th innings of close games.

 

Sabathia

Wang

Burnett

Pettitte

Hughes/??/

 

That to me seems like it should be the rotation. There is no doubt that Hughes is a SP, and you and I have (historically) agreed that Hughes should be a tremendous starter. Keeping him on the bench of in AAA doesn't do much for his trade value or his development and confidence as a Yankee. He was 'ready' to start in 07 and going into 08, so proving himself at AAA seems like a waste of his talent. Let him start, let him work his s*** out in the #5 hole and if needed have the offense carry him.

 

I agree with the premise that there should be only one young kid in the rotation mostly from a durability standpoint. But as documented above, I think that guy should be Joba. Hughes impressed me with how he bounced back, but I am concerned about the new onset wildness. I think he could benefit from a yr being the injury starter in the bigs and getting the ball every 5 days in Scranton. Build the innings, work on stuff and command, and in 2010, after Pettitte goes away, have him take his rightful slot in the rotation

[jacksonianmarch]

What about Aceves? I haven't really seen him pitch' date=' and he's only had 4 starts, but his numbers look pretty good.[/quote']

 

Aceves is an interesting guy who I think would be better served in the NL. He's big, he's 26 and he has solid stuff, but he isnt a strikeout pitcher. He's more of the durable horse kind of guy who gets a lot of contact. I like his long term prospects as a back end starter who can throw 200+IP, but I dont think the interim with him will be pretty in a loaded ALE in mostly hitters parks and due to his propensity for allowing contact. I like him as the #6 starter if Joba and Hughes are in the rotation, but he didnt earn a MLB slot IMO

[jacksonianmarch]

Ah and Ed, the sox were better in 2008, no question. They handled injuries better than we did, mostly because their MLB ready farm products were well, ready. Lester steps in as an ace with Schill being out. Lowrie outperforms Lugo. Pedroia and Youk step up their game.

 

But, healthy, I think we would have given you a run for your money. And I am of the belief that we are better in 2009 than the sox are. But this is all a game of speculation since injuries likely will be a real problem.

[26 to 6]

I agree. Although I feel our team is best served at this point with Joba in the pen, due to his success as a starter last year he deserves to have the chance to start in the rotation on a permanent basis. If he falters and shows signs of breaking down or a lack of durability we can move him to the pen and still get great contributions from him. But I'm also alright with the idea that if the bullpen struggles, regardless of his performance as a starter, we can send him to the 8th inning out of necessity. It may hamper his development, but assuming everyone else in the rotation is healthy and producing I think we would have to consider it in the best interest of the team and attaining the goal of championship # 27.

 

I agree with the premise that there should be only one young kid in the rotation mostly from a durability standpoint. But as documented above, I think that guy should be Joba. Hughes impressed me with how he bounced back, but I am concerned about the new onset wildness. I think he could benefit from a yr being the injury starter in the bigs and getting the ball every 5 days in Scranton. Build the innings, work on stuff and command, and in 2010, after Pettitte goes away, have him take his rightful slot in the rotation

Again, I agree. Sounds good to me. Given the concerns of CC and Burnett, Joba's innings limits, and Wang coming back from an injury I think we should definitely try to fill that other slot with someone who can eat innings, regardless of age. I agree with everything you say on Hughes, and I do expect him to be a top of the rotation starter at some point, if the reason for excluding him from the rotation is because of a concern over durability and how many innings he can pitch, then in following that idea we would have to shy away from Sheets should we fail to come to terms with Pettitte.

 

What about Aceves? I haven't really seen him pitch, and he's only had 4 starts, but his numbers look pretty good.

Aceves was reallly good in his limited time in the bigs last year. After plucking him out of the Mexican League after 6 years prior to last season he went through the system pretty quickly, and successfully. Through 140.2 Minor League innings pitched he compiled a 2.63 ERA through his 25 games (23 starts). He struggled a little bit after reaching AAA, posting a 4.12 and 42 hits given up through his 43.2 innings pitched in Scranton. But he came up and did a nice job filling in. I like this guy a lot, but like Jacko said he's more of a depth guy. I'm not sure his ceiling is much higher than where he's already at, but he's a good guy to have around. Has great control, can throw any pitch in any count and really knows how to pitch.

 

I wondered why he wore 91 for a while, but after doing a wikipedia search on him it appears he grew up a big Chicago Bulls fan and his favorite player was Rodman.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree. Sheets upside is way higher than Pettitte's. But we arent looking for an ace. We're looking for a guy we can reliably expect to hand the ball to a reliever after the 6th on an every 5 day basis. We have that with CC and with a healthy Wang. But when looking at most of the successful teams, they have both successful and durable rotations. Right now, I cannot say that. Add Pettitte and you have 3 guys who should make it past 200IP before you even get to Burnett (who did it last yr) or Joba

[a700hitter]

It may hamper his development' date=' but assuming everyone else in the rotation is healthy and producing I think we would have to consider it in the best interest of the team and attaining the goal of championship # 27.[/quote']I am looking forward to the resounding thud when this well-stocked over-paid team crashes and burns like last seasons Tigers.

[diony]

I agree. Although I feel our team is best served at this point with Joba in the pen' date=' due to his success as a starter last year he deserves to have the chance to start in the rotation on a permanent basis. If he falters and shows signs of breaking down or a lack of durability we can move him to the pen and still get great contributions from him. [b']But I'm also alright with the idea that if the bullpen struggles, regardless of his performance as a starter, we can send him to the 8th inning out of necessity.[/b] It may hamper his development, but assuming everyone else in the rotation is healthy and producing I think we would have to consider it in the best interest of the team and attaining the goal of championship # 27.

 

So if he's giving you 6 great innings every 5 days, you want to send him to the pen to pitch 1 inning each 1-2 days? :dunno:

[jacksonianmarch]

last season's tigers were billed as an offensive juggernaut. Teams built around solid pitching are the only ones to consistently make the playoffs. The Tigers lost Bonderman and Rogers to injury. Verlander started off terribly. Robertson completely crashed and burned. And Willis lost everything. Not to mention their best reliever went down for most of the season, Todd Jones lost any semblance of being useful and Rodney was hit or miss. Their pitching got decimated and they were awful. That can happen to anyone, and if it happens to us, we will crash and burn. But it will just as likely, if not more likely could happen to you guys (depending on if we get Pettitte).

[a700hitter]

last season's tigers were billed as an offensive juggernaut. Teams built around solid pitching are the only ones to consistently make the playoffs. The Tigers lost Bonderman and Rogers to injury. Verlander started off terribly. Robertson completely crashed and burned. And Willis lost everything. Not to mention their best reliever went down for most of the season' date=' Todd Jones lost any semblance of being useful and Rodney was hit or miss. Their pitching got decimated and they were awful. That can happen to anyone, and if it happens to us, we will crash and burn. But it will just as likely, if not more likely could happen to you guys (depending on if we get Pettitte).[/quote']But the Sox didn't go out and spend $400 million on the top 3 free agents.

[diony]

But the Sox didn't go out and spend $400 million on the top 3 free agents.

 

The Sox spent less but the injury risk is way higher. In fact, Smoltz is not even healthy right now and Penny got 3/4 arm left.

[a700hitter]

The Sox spent less but the injury risk is way higher. In fact' date=' Smoltz is not even healthy right now and Penny got 3/4 arm left.[/quote']But the FO for the Yankees certainly has very high expectations for their FAs considering the huge investment, which will make the thud of their crash far more resounding.

[Dipre]

The Sox spent less but the injury risk is way higher. In fact' date=' Smoltz is not even healthy right now and[b'] Penny got 3/4 arm left.[/b]

 

I'd like to see where you get your medical records so i can see just how far ahead of the Sox medical team you are in terms of evaluating the length of a players' arm.

 

I supposed you compared it to the other?

 

Just sayin'.

[26 to 6]

So if he's giving you 6 great innings every 5 days' date=' you want to send him to the pen to pitch 1 inning each 1-2 days? :dunno:[/quote']

It depends on the success of the rest of the rotation. If everyone is healthy and winning ballgames but our bullpen keeps blowing the lead and we subsequently lose the game than yes. if Joba is the only bright-spot in our rotation and say Burnett is on the DL, CC is getting shelled around, Wang is .500 with an ERA above 4 then you would have to keep him there. It all depends on the specific circumstances surrounding the situation.

[diony]

It depends on the success of the rest of the rotation. If everyone is healthy and winning ballgames but our bullpen keeps blowing the lead and we subsequently lose the game than yes. if Joba is the only bright-spot in our rotation and say Burnett is on the DL' date=' CC is getting shelled around, Wang is .500 with an ERA above 4 then you would have to keep him there. It all depends on the specific circumstances surrounding the situation.[/quote']

 

A rotation with Joba Chamberlain is better than any without him.

 

Who's going to replace him? Aceves?

[jacksonianmarch]

But the Sox didn't go out and spend $400 million on the top 3 free agents.

 

Meh, who cares. Once the games start, the money will be old hat. All that matters is the performance. And if the sox fail, I have a feeling there will be quite a resounding thud heard over here

[26 to 6]

A rotation with Joba Chamberlain is better than any without him.

 

Who's going to replace him? Aceves?

You can have the best rotation in the world, but if the bullpen blows your leads and as a result you lose the game that area needs to be addressed. I agree with what you're saying, but for the sake of winning and the team being as good as it can be it is something that would have to be considered should it come to that. We shouldn't even be arguing about this now, we don't know how good the pen is gong to be yet, nor do we know how the starters are going to perform. Lets let the season play out a little bit first.

 

As for who would replace him, that's not really a question that can be answered at this point. we need to see who we get to fill out the roster, who's pitching where, and who's pitching well at the time of any hypothetical transition. It could be anyone from Hughes to Aceves to Giese to Jason Johnson, to even god forbid Kei Igawa. Ian Kennedy, Sergio Mitre, etc. Hughes would probably get first cracks, but if he's already up either filling out the number 5 spot or filling in for an in injured starter then my guess would be whoever is pitching best at the time.

[jacksonianmarch]

26, we had the second best bullpen in baseball last yr. That was with only having Marte in it for half the yr and having Ohlendorf in there for the first half. Also, we have Melancon and Robertson, two guys who I think will have a significant impact in the pen this yr. We have the reinforcements for the pen.

[Dipre]

You can have the best rotation in the world, but if the bullpen blows your leads and as a result you lose the game that area needs to be addressed. I agree with what you're saying, but for the sake of winning and the team being as good as it can be it is something that would have to be considered should it come to that. We shouldn't even be arguing about this now, we don't know how good the pen is gong to be yet, nor do we know how the starters are going to perform. Lets let the season play out a little bit first.

 

As for who would replace him, that's not really a question that can be answered at this point. we need to see who we get to fill out the roster, who's pitching where, and who's pitching well at the time of any hypothetical transition. It could be anyone from Hughes to Aceves to Giese to Kei Igawa, to even god forbid Jason Johnsonn. Ian Kennedy, Sergio Mitre, etc. Hughes would probably get first cracks, but if he's already up either filling out the number 5 spot or filling in for an in injured starter then my guess would be whoever is pitching best at the time.

 

Fixed that for ya

[a700hitter]

Meh' date=' who cares. Once the games start, the money will be old hat. All that matters is the performance. And if the sox fail, I have a feeling there will be quite a resounding thud heard over here[/quote']The expectation of the Yankees FO has been raised significantly. If they finish out of the $ this season, Cashman will have plenty of time to write a book. If the Sox finish out of the $, the FO will have plenty of $ to go after the new crop of FAs. Certainly, they know thta they have not significantly improved their team. No one will lose a job over signing Penny, Smoltz or Baldelli. The Yanks' FO on the other hand will be more than slightly distraught if they crash and burn.