Wow... Nolan Ryan Never Won Cy Young

[Keeper]

Royally screwed in '73. 383 strikeouts (most all time in the modern era) in 326 innings, 2.87 ERA, 21 wins. Finishes 2nd to Jim Palmer, who had 225 less strikeouts than Ryan and pitched 30 less innings. And believe it or not, that was the only time in Ryan's career where he even finished 2nd in Cy Young voting.

 

Could have also won in '72, '74, and '77.

 

This is a travesty.

[26 to 6]

Wow nice find. I didn't even realize. This is an absolute joke.

[Dipre]

Neither did Juan Marichal, both first-ballot HOFers, lol.

[BoSox21]

Royally screwed in '73. 383 strikeouts (most all time in the modern era) in 326 innings, 2.87 ERA, 21 wins. Finishes 2nd to Jim Palmer, who had 225 less strikeouts than Ryan and pitched 30 less innings. And believe it or not, that was the only time in Ryan's career where he even finished 2nd in Cy Young voting.

 

Could have also won in '72, '74, and '77.

 

This is a travesty.

 

But Palmer had 22 wins, almost a half run lower in ERA and a lower whip

 

Nolan Ryan never winning a Cy Young is one of those "oh yea? how bout that...." things but there are pitchers who had better seasons in every year he pitched

[Keeper]

But Palmer had 22 wins' date=' almost a half run lower in ERA and a lower whip[/quote']

 

The 22 wins is meaningless. Besides, it's only 1 more win. Palmer's team was 97-65. Ryan's team was 79-83. Ryan played on a lot of bad teams. A .526 career winning percentage doesn't tell the whole story. To me, Ryan's strikeout total is so overwhelmingly dominant, Palmer's lower ERA and WHIP are nullified.

[PATS12RULE]

The guy on top of the wins list never won a CYA either.

[Cocos Disciples]

The guy on top of the wins list never won a CYA either.

 

lulz

[BoSox21]

To me' date=' Ryan's strikeout total is so overwhelmingly dominant, Palmer's lower ERA and WHIP are nullified.[/quote']

 

Why do some people put so much stock in strikeouts? Yea, it's impressive but an out is an out. A strikeout gives you the same result as a groundout or popout.

 

Why not take into account that in '73, Palmer also walked about 50 less guys than Ryan?

[Dojji]

There are years where Ryan led the league in both strikeouts and walks. I'd have to look it up and confirm, but I'm betting Ryan is the only player to strike out 300 batters and walk 200 in the same year twice. I can't blame the writers for being a bit turned off by his effectively wild career.

 

Let's be honest: Ryan was one of the best pitchers in baseball, but the reason he was one of the best pitchers in the baseball is a combination of ungodly natural stuff and longevity, there really wasn't ever a ton of finesse there. There never really had to be. The stuff was always that good.

 

He spent pretty much his entire career trying to blow it by people and doing it successfully. Ryan is and always will be the best thrower of all time, but there are always better Pitchers with pure stuff that's only somewhat worse. So no, not really shocked that even after all he was the writers snubbed him.

[Dipre]

I loooooove Strikeouts

[Keeper]

Why do some people put so much stock in strikeouts? Yea, it's impressive but an out is an out. A strikeout gives you the same result as a groundout or popout.

 

Why not take into account that in '73, Palmer also walked about 50 less guys than Ryan?

 

From a practical standpoint, I agree with you about results. And the exorbitant amount of walks Ryan habitually had is also a fair point. But I look at it this way: how many pitchers have struck out 383 batters in a season?

 

Put it another way. I've seen a few no-hitters. Most recently, I saw Zambrano's gem. But none of them - none of them - were as exciting as Kerry Wood's 20 Ks in 1998.

 

Other than getting out of a jam by inducing a double play, the strikeout is the most electrifying thing a pitcher can do on the mound. At least I think so.

 

Let's be honest: Ryan was one of the best pitchers in baseball' date=' but the reason he was one of the best pitchers in the baseball is a combination of ungodly natural stuff and longevity, there really wasn't ever a ton of finesse there. There never really had to be. The stuff was always that good.[/quote']

 

So because he wasn't a "thinking man's pitcher" like Greg Maddux, that brings him down a notch? Having ungodly natural stuff should be glorified, not scorned at simply because you didn't have to work as hard for your outs as the other guy.

 

It looks like Cliff Lee is about to win Cy Young. And I think he deserves it. But when it's all said and done, will he even be in the same breath as Nolan Ryan? Ask yourself that, and then tell me Ryan didn't deserve a Cy Young.

[Dojji]

So because he wasn't a "thinking man's pitcher" like Greg Maddux, that brings him down a notch? Having ungodly natural stuff should be glorified, not scorned at simply because you didn't have to work as hard for your outs as the other guy.

 

It looks like Cliff Lee is about to win Cy Young. And I think he deserves it. But when it's all said and done, will he even be in the same breath as Nolan Ryan? Ask yourself that, and then tell me Ryan didn't deserve a Cy Young.

 

Your mistake here is thinking that the CYA says anything about how good a pitcher you are.

 

And what takes Ryan down not one notch, but several, is the walks.

[BoSox21]

From a practical standpoint' date=' I agree with you about results. And the exorbitant amount of walks Ryan habitually had is also a fair point. But I look at it this way: how many pitchers have struck out 383 batters in a season?[/quote']

 

How many pitchers have saved 62 games in a season? Where's K-Rod's Cy Young? The Cy Young goes to whichever pitcher had the best overall season, not to the most eye-popping individual accomplishment

 

Put it another way. I've seen a few no-hitters. Most recently' date=' I saw Zambrano's gem. But none of them - [i']none of them[/i] - were as exciting as Kerry Wood's 20 Ks in 1998.

 

Other than getting out of a jam by inducing a double play, the strikeout is the most electrifying thing a pitcher can do on the mound. At least I think so.

 

So because he wasn't a "thinking man's pitcher" like Greg Maddux, that brings him down a notch? Having ungodly natural stuff should be glorified, not scorned at simply because you didn't have to work as hard for your outs as the other guy.

 

Fine but again, the Cy Young award goes to the most effective pitcher of that season, not the guy who got the fans out of their seats the most.

 

And no one is bashing Nolan Ryan, his "ungodly natural stuff" was glorified by the fact that he is a first-ballot hall of famer

 

It looks like Cliff Lee is about to win Cy Young. And I think he deserves it. But when it's all said and done' date=' will he even be in the same breath as Nolan Ryan? Ask yourself that, and then tell me Ryan didn't deserve a Cy Young.[/quote']

 

Nolan Ryan never had a season like Cliff Lee's 2008 but Cliff Lee won't end up having a career like Nolan Ryan. Ryan's Cy Young shutout is the victim of bad luck more than anything, he had some terrific seasons but there was always at least one guy who had a better one. The Cy Young is not an award based on career merit, it's based on season merit. Lee's season stands up as one of the great ones.

 

I challenge anyone to give me a convincing argument that Ryan should have won the Cy Young in any of the years he finished top 5 in the voting.

[Dojji]

This is at least an interesting basis to argue the HoF merits of Curt "never won a CYA" Schilling. Of course 5,000 strikeouts and 7 no-hitters puts Ryan leagues ahead of Schill.

[BoSox21]

Although Ryan doesn't have the playoff legacy of Schilling

[rician blast]

Royally screwed in '73. 383 strikeouts (most all time in the modern era) in 326 innings, 2.87 ERA, 21 wins. Finishes 2nd to Jim Palmer, who had 225 less strikeouts than Ryan and pitched 30 less innings. And believe it or not, that was the only time in Ryan's career where he even finished 2nd in Cy Young voting.

 

Could have also won in '72, '74, and '77.

 

This is a travesty.

 

To be honest I'm not surprised that he never won that award as the voting is subjective, and K's alone don't do the trick.

 

In 1972 and 1977 he lost 16 games. Tough to win it with those loss totals...while Gaylord did win with 16 losses in 1972, he also had 24 wins and a 1.92 ERA.

 

You could go through the record books and find a lot of cases where the winner could be questioned.

[Keeper]

I challenge anyone to give me a convincing argument that Ryan should have won the Cy Young in any of the years he finished top 5 in the voting.

 

I already have. But if someone else would like to fight the good fight, be my guest. I'm bowing out.

[BoSox21]

I already have. But if someone else would like to fight the good fight' date=' be my guest. I'm bowing out.[/quote']

 

Yea, you're a guy who puts a tremendous amount of value in the strikeout. I'm looking for something else

[TheKilo]

[table]Pitcher|GS|IP|W|L|ERA|ERA+|H|K|BB|H/9|K/9|BB/9|K/BB|WHIP

Palmer|37|296.3|22|9|2.40|156|225|158|113|6.83|4.79|3.43|1.39|1.141

Ryan|39|326|21|16|2.87|122|238|383|162|6.57|10.57|4.47|2.36|1.227[/table]

 

If you look at the stats the writers seem to love, Palmer wins.

 

If you look at rate stats, Ryan wins.

 

I think that the extra thirty innings really pushes the envelope into Ryan's favor, a la CC Sabathia last season.

[rician blast]

[table]Pitcher|GS|IP|W|L|ERA|ERA+|H|K|BB|H/9|K/9|BB/9|K/BB|WHIP

Palmer|37|296.3|22|9|2.40|156|225|158|113|6.83|4.79|3.43|1.39|1.141

Ryan|39|326|21|16|2.87|122|238|383|162|6.57|10.57|4.47|2.36|1.227[/table]

 

If you look at the stats the writers seem to love, Palmer wins.

 

If you look at rate stats, Ryan wins.

 

I think that the extra thirty innings really pushes the envelope into Ryan's favor, a la CC Sabathia last season.

 

Palmer's 71% W% > Ryan's 57%.

 

Ryan's 16 losses vs. Palmer's 9 killed him.

[BoSox21]

If you look at the stats the writers seem to love, Palmer wins.

 

If you look at rate stats, Ryan wins.

 

I think that the extra thirty innings really pushes the envelope into Ryan's favor, a la CC Sabathia last season.

 

Yea but can you really argue that Ryan was robbed? Did the writer's perform a huge injustice to the history of the game by voting Jim Palmer over Nolan Ryan? I don't think so, just like you can't really argue Beckett was robbed last year

[TheKilo]

Palmer's 71% W% > Ryan's 57%.

 

Ryan's 16 losses vs. Palmer's 9 killed him.

 

I agree, although wins are one of the worst possible stats you can use to judge a pitcher's worth.

 

Yea but can you really argue that Ryan was robbed? Did the writer's perform a huge injustice to the history of the game by voting Jim Palmer over Nolan Ryan?

 

I don't think Ryan was "robbed" per se...as the statistics were close enough that you can make a convincing argument for both, I just think you can make a better argument with Ryan's 1973 season than you can do with Palmer's.

 

I don't think so, just like you can't really argue Beckett was robbed last year

 

In 1973, the pitcher that was more like Beckett last year won, so I'm not sure I see your point.

[BoSox21]

My only point is that it was close either year, close enough that it could've gone to either Palmer or Ryan in '73 and Sabathia or Beckett in '07 that there wouldn't have been an outcry either year

[TheKilo]

My only point is that it was close either year' date=' close enough that it could've gone to either Palmer or Ryan in '73 and Sabathia or Beckett in '07 that there wouldn't have been an outcry either year[/quote']

 

I agree, but I feel the writers got it right in 2007 but not in 1973.

 

You asked for a more convincing argument than strikeouts...how about a lower H/9 Average and a better K/BB average?

 

Thirty additional innings, or 10% of Palmer's workload, should be considered as well.

[BoSox21]

I agree, but I feel the writers got it right in 2007 but not in 1973.

 

You asked for a more convincing argument than strikeouts...how about a lower H/9 Average and a better K/BB average?

 

Thirty additional innings, or 10% of Palmer's workload, should be considered as well.

 

I agree with 2007 as well, Sabathia rightfully won it.

 

The lower H/9 is negated by the fact that Palmer had a lower WHIP.

 

And the K/BB average ties directly to the insane amount of strikeouts he had cause going by the BB/9, Ryan allowed a full walk more and I've already given the Ryan camp the strikeout argument

 

I've never paid much attention to the innings cause there are so many other factors to consider such as injury history, the manager and the bullpen. Ned Yost wouldn't have made Sabathia pitch so many innings in 2008 if he was staying with the team so should Sabathia be credited for that?

[TheKilo]

I agree with 2007 as well, Sabathia rightfully won it.

 

The lower H/9 is negated by the fact that Palmer had a lower WHIP.

 

And the K/BB average ties directly to the insane amount of strikeouts he had cause going by the BB/9, Ryan allowed a full walk more and I've already given the Ryan camp the strikeout argument

 

You want to know why strikeouts are viewed in a higher regard? They are a sure out for the pitcher, he does not have to rely on his defense.

 

Palmer had to lean more on his defense than Ryan did. While there is something to be said about pitching to contact, it's clear Ryan did more for his own cause than Palmer for his.

 

I've never paid much attention to the innings cause there are so many other factors to consider such as injury history, the manager and the bullpen. Ned Yost wouldn't have made Sabathia pitch so many innings in 2008 if he was staying with the team so should Sabathia be credited for that?

 

If he put up an additional 10% of the workload and still maintained very similar rate stats, a la CC last season and Ryan in 1973? Yes, I do give him credit for that.

[BoSox21]

You want to know why strikeouts are viewed in a higher regard? They are a sure out for the pitcher, he does not have to rely on his defense.

 

Palmer had to lean more on his defense than Ryan did. While there is something to be said about pitching to contact, it's clear Ryan did more for his own cause than Palmer for his.

 

True, but a pitcher should expect his major league defense to make the routine plays in the same way a hockey team forces the opposition to take shots from certain areas on the ice, trusting their goalie to make the routine save

 

If he put up an additional 10% of the workload and still maintained very similar rate stats, a la CC last season and Ryan in 1973? Yes, I do give him credit for that.

 

Fine, but Baltimore had a far more effective bullpen than California that year so should it be held against Palmer that his manager opted to turn games over to his very capable bullpen that year?

[TheKilo]

True' date=' but a pitcher should expect his major league defense to make the routine plays in the same way a hockey team forces the opposition to take shots from certain areas on the ice, trusting their goalie to make the routine save[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

Fine, but Baltimore had a far more effective bullpen than California that year so should it be held against Palmer that his manager opted to turn games over to his very capable bullpen that year?

 

I don't think it's a knock on Palmer more than it is an advantage for Ryan.

[BoSox21]

I don't think it's a knock on Palmer more than it is an advantage for Ryan.

 

Fair enough, I don't think I have anything more to say on the subject

[SCM33]

I always thought Nolan Ryan was overrated (.526 wp, 292 losses, a shitload of walks).....but I never knew he never won a Cy Young, pretty amazing. Even more amazing, he was only in contention (top 10) for the award 8 seasons in a 27 year career.

 

Clemens was in contention 12 times in 24 seasons, and won 7 Cy Youngs. Really remarkable.