Manny Ramirez

[User Name]

Since when is Youkie a complainer? Maybe I missed out, maybe several times, but I've always LOVED him. Him and Manny.

[msubulldogs21]

I hate Youk so i wouldnt mind seeing him go at the right price.

 

Exactly how do you hate Youkilis being a Red Sox fan? That makes little sense, especially considering what the guy means to our team both offensively and defensively.

[Gom]

Youk is a bitch.

[Cocos Disciples]

Youk is a bitch.

 

Joba is a bitchier bitch.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Ramírez appears correct about the unlikelihood of a deal. "There's nothing going on," said one industry source close to the situation.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/07/28/salvage_operation/?page=full

[Paradisecity]

Manny's situation is one of those "riddle wrapped in an enigma" type situations.

 

How do you deal with him?

How do you possibly keep him with all the s*** he pulls?

How do you get rid of such an important lineup spot?

How can you trade him for less than value when you can keep his production and get picks at the end of the year?

How do you justify keeping him when he seems to give up on the team?

 

There really is no right answer to any of these questions, but plenty of wrong answers.

 

I don't see him going anywhere, personally.

[TheKilo]

 

I hate Youk so i wouldnt mind seeing him go at the right price. All he does is complain and whine. He is a great hitter but i cant stand watching him at times. If Texiera and Youk had the same contract for the next 3 years, I would deal Youk for Tex in a heartbeat.

 

No s***, but a big part of Youkilis's value is that you don't have to pay him over $15 million/year.

 

They're not that much different, the two. Tex is better but not tremendously so.

[Beckett95]

Youk is a bitch.

 

He is, if he was on any other team then the Sox, you would all hate him. He strikesout, then throws a little fit like he is a 12 year old in little league. He complains about every single call that goes against him.

[Beckett95]

Back to Manny, everywhere i look it seems like no one is interested in Manny. Untill I read this

 

http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2008/07/manny_ramirez_has_ny_mets_atte.html

 

The Mets are done trying to make a deal for Ibanez because they dont want to give up Fernando Martinez for him. But would they deal Martinez for Manny?

 

Or Lou Marson would fill a need.

 

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Marson%20%20C&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=453974

[TheKilo]

So does David Ortiz. Do you hate him?

[Beckett95]

So does David Ortiz. Do you hate him?

 

Not like Youk though, Youk just seems like a baby IMO.

[User Name]

Would you rather just have Youkilis accept his failure and be okay with it?

[TheKilo]

Not like Youk though' date=' Youk just seems like a baby IMO.[/quote']

 

Have you watched David Ortiz over the last 2+ seasons, or are you comfortable letting your bias shine through?

[MANNYHOF24]

Manny isnt going anywhere, I think last night should remind how much having Manny/Ortiz is so worth all the headaches he brings off the field. Serioulsy, I think everyone is just going to get over this like 2005 and move on. Unless they can get an unbelieavable deal, but with the seemingly little intrest, I dont see that happening. Look we all know Manny is going to have episodes, but we have put up with it for 7 and half years, whats another two months? This team can not improve by losing Manny, period. Don't bring up team chemistry ********, this offense has a chance to to be amazing for the next two months.

[YAZMAN]

Manny stays through October. At that point, I could see him not having his option picked up.

[example1]

This is a long, speculative and kind of lame post. However, instead of complaining about whether or not Youkilis gets upset after a poor AB, let's look at some potential scenarios that could play out approaching the trade deadline.

 

1) Sox do nothing about Manny. Manny's contract and the lack of adequate replacements makes this one seem most likely.

--Upside: If the Sox make the playoffs, then none of us will mind having Manny in the lineup come October.

--Downside: Manny continues to make a mockery of the Sox FO and Tito and keeps the axe over our heads with the possibility that he'll quit on the team. He's never quit on them completely before, but that fear is not a place that the FO likes to be and the fans don't like it either. It's a weak moral position, but a strong baseball position assumin ghe continues to rake.

 

2) Sox move Manny for minor league talent.

--Upside: increased flexibility for next year, get rid of the Manny and the sideshow that he produces, allows team to gel and know who the main pieces are moving forward. This is a young team with players like Ellsbury, Masterson, Buchholz all playing "in flux" right now. It can't help to have the one sure-fire HOF player on the team (the potential best role model) bitching and moaning about the people who will be their bosses for the next few years. Chemistry is overrated, no doubt, but it does matter for something--particularly when the talent exists to make a run with or without Manny (which I think it does). Sox also get prospects to move or build for the future.

 

--downside: it puts the success of the 2008 Red Sox in jeopardy and will make the nation freak out (a la 2004 with Nomar's departure). No guaranteed success in 08.

 

3) Sox move Manny or another player to make a strong 08 run

 

Upside: I would trust the FO to make the talent valuation and believe they would get something to help the team. Sox could improve their team and get someone to hold down the team in the future (Teixeira? Holliday? Dunn?).

 

Downside:

Teixeira--would require either trading Youkilis, or moving him to LF (if they are able to move Manny), would further limit their position flexibility and their defensive strength.

 

Dunn--has no real spot unless Manny is moved

 

Holliday--probably isn't available anyway at this time. Will cost a lot and will not be moved directly for Manny so multiple pieces will be needed.

 

 

--Personally, I think the Sox may just want to overpay on both ends of this deal. If they know who they want tthen they shouldn't stop without getting him. If it means moving Manny for pennies on the dollar (and moving his money elsewhere) that's fine with me. The Sox have a deep MLB team, and a deep farm system. I wonder where guys like Lin, Carter, Anderson, Kalish, Moss, Reddick, etc., ultimately fit on this team with the MLB depth of corner OFs, corner IFs and the Sox current depth in CF.

 

Would it make sense to deal whatever it takes to get a guy like Matt Holliday? Move Manny to the mets for some RP help and decent but not deal-breaking prospects, provide some loot for the rest of this year, and be thankful that he turned the Red Sox from an also-ran in the AL East to one of the most popular teams in Major League baseball worldwide. He'd probably still be a net-plus for the franchise, even if they didn't get completely even return. Swing those 'specs plus an abundence of other talent for Holliday and cement the middle of the lineup for the next 5 years or so. It's wishful thinking, but I would imagine that COL would have it's price for Holliday, even if he is one of the games best hitters and they would not be getting any piece of Manny.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Ortiz

Holliday

Lowell

Drew

Youkilis

Varitek

Lowry/Lugo

 

If the Sox can not trade much for Miguel Tejada then maybe they should do that and hit him 8th.

 

 

---------------------------------

 

There are a lot of possibilities, probably many that I listed aren't realistic. However, it's better than discussing whether or not YOukilis is a bitch. He's a good player, the starting 1B on the all star team with an OPS above 900 who won a GG.

 

If the Sox feel that only a bat like Holliday will do, then they should cash in their "great farm system" chips and get the guy they want to replace Manny and not worry as much about what they get back for Manny specifically (perhaps longer term talent). Does that seem rash? Maybe, but Manny feels like a thorn in the Sox' side and he will be gone after this season no matter what at this rate.

 

I'd love to see what others think are possibilities instead of complaining about Youkilis.

[ORS]

I think they finish this year with Manny, and they should. In the last few days we've seen how much of an impact having the Dominican Duo can have on the offense, and this is without them both going bonkers with the long ball, which can and will happen. Manny is auditioning for a new contract right now. He knows his option isn't getting picked up, and he knows there are questions about his professionalism at this point. I think the chances he pulls something immature and tanks on his team are slim. He's got his last big contract, one that he wants (why else would he be so upset about the options), to consider.

 

For next year, it may be worth it to give Brandon Moss a look as an everyday outfielder. He's hit well in his time with the big club this year with limited regular playing time. He's looking like he has legit 25 HR power, and he'll play much better defense in LF (or RF with Drew upgrading LF). The downside is he will make the middle of the order very LH, but with some creative lineup construction and Youk coming into his own in terms of power, they may be able to mix it up some.

 

Try that to start the year. If it's not working out, look to pick up Holliday at the deadline, because Colorado will be looking to maximize return as he approaches his FA offseason.

 

That, or beat the Yankee offer to sign Dunn.

[CalvnHobs6]

Gammons rips Manny a new one on ESPN Insider:

 

Manny's all about the money

 

Monday, July 28, 2008

 

Everyone in the clubhouse knows the names. Joba Chamberlain (twice), Felix Hernandez (twice), Edinson Volquez, Justin Verlander -- pitchers that Manny Ramirez didn't feel quite right to face, be it a knee, a hamstring, his contract or the pitcher's velocity, and those he left for someone else in the Red Sox "family" to face.

 

Everyone knows what this latest soap opera is about. It's about Manny being only about Manny -- not the team that will have paid him $168 million when this season's over, not "teammates" he leaves to answer for him, not winning or any competitive motivation.

 

No. Manny being Manny means Manny wanting money. He doesn't want to wait for the Red Sox to exercise the right he gave them for the first $168M, the right to decide at the end of the season whether to pick up his option for 2009 at $20M. The Red Sox fulfilled their end of the contract; now he doesn't want to fulfill his obligation, the same way he watched his teammates fade in 2006.

 

He knows that this winter -- when he's 36, turning 37 next May -- he has a better chance of scoring the four-year, $100M deal he has told teammates he can get than he will after the 2010 season, when he'll be 38 turning 39. He doesn't want to have to sweat for two years at a measly $20M, and everyone knows that he couldn't care less how he gets that $100M, even if it means sitting out and leaving "family" fighting it out without him.

 

Manny is right. The Red Sox are tired of him. They are not going to pick up the option for 2009 and spend one more year as his prisoner. What he wants is to go to another team, on which he can put up big numbers for two months and either get that new contract, or go out on the market. Rationally, one would think he could do that in Boston -- first help the Red Sox into the postseason, then hit the market.

 

But that assumes rationality is in play.

 

Scott Boras intervened and helped the fine/anger-management solution after Ramirez shoved traveling secretary Jack McCormick. And Boras right now is trying to help Manny understand that it is in his best interest to, in Boras' words, "fulfill his current obligation," and put up the free-agent numbers here in Boston, where he has David Ortiz to take the heat Manny ignores, with five All-Stars in the lineup around him.

 

Oh, we all hear the analysis of how much the Red Sox need him. That is, if he doesn't bag it, which he was willing to do until John Henry and Tom Werner joined with Theo Epstein and Terry Francona on Friday, enraged at him for skipping Chamberlain, and forced him to take an MRI for the knee affliction known as Felix-Joba-itis.

 

But over the weekend, when they had one of those rare important series, with the Yankees charging on the outside, Red Sox management and players got a taste of what the series, the pennant and winning mean to him. Manny is right: Enough is enough. But management has to worry that if he gets booed he'll quit. Or that if Manny is criticized, he'll sit.

 

They are trying to get other teams interested. In the clubhouse, they talk about maybe getting Pat Burrell from the Phillies and reuniting Manny with Charlie Manuel. The Sox have let teams know they'll take care of Ramirez's remaining money if they'll provide young talent, which, considering what Manny can do for the Mets or Phillies or Dodgers, is a nice free-home demonstration; he won't have had time to "tire" of owners who pay him as much as the entire Florida Marlins team.

 

Ortiz, Mike Lowell, Alex Cora and other players are trying to help Manny focus and play in Boston; he works out with Lowell and Cora regularly, and some days he listens as they try to get him to connect the dots between the concepts of performance and pay. Maybe it'll work, and even if they do not win the World Series, they can rationalize that what they got for eight years and $168M was a pair of world championships and years of sellouts. They can rationalize that Manny essentially was The Fens' version of "Damn Yankees," and they'd probably say it was worth it to sell their souls to end that 86-year thing. But the interest rate on those payments of $20M and their souls is getting a tad steep.

 

Then the Red Sox move on and try to find another left-field bat. In the meantime, they may have to spend the rest of the year wondering if Manny Ramirez cares to play, whether the opposing pitcher is on his wish list.

 

Manny clearly has decided that he has already fulfilled his obligation to the first eight-year contract, and wants the next $100M right now. In the real world, this is a form of blackmail. In the clubhouse, where Francona and his teammates have allowed him to live by his own rules knowing that his production is Cooperstown material, many are exhausted by his disdain for the game, for winning and for any form of authority.

 

What Henry, Werner and Larry Lucchino should do is call a press conference and announce extensions for Francona and Epstein for all they have had to swallow because Manny Ramirez can hit. Then they can watch and see if a 36-year-old DH whose production in 2007 and 2008 has fallen below his 1998-2006 levels will go out and prove he's worth four years and $100M and ride off into the sunset snubbing his nose at the people who paid him $168M.

 

If he doesn't understand that these two months are vital to his next $100M, fine. If there isn't a reasonable trade to be made, fine.

 

After years of his public defenders rationalizing that the Red Sox can't win without him, if they can't win with him, so be it. At least the Red Sox can feel clean and sober.

 

A group of Red Sox watched the Yankees take early batting practice Friday, and they complimented the way Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu and Johnny Damon show up every day. "Say what you want about A-Rod," said one, "but he plays every day and he plays his behind off."

 

Rodriguez opted out of his contract after an MVP season. What Ramirez is doing is trying to opt out in the middle of his contract during the season.

 

What the Red Sox hope is that he listens to Boras and his teammates and fulfills the obligation he signed. And then there's a train, either way, leaving every day. And buyer beware of a man who chooses to be judged by numbers and salary, with no regard for character or integrity.

[CalvnHobs6]

I can't quite put my finger on what my issue is with Holliday....

 

Home AB: 1256

Away AB: 1214

Home HR: 81

Away HR: 40

Home RBI: 294

Away RBI: 163

Home AVG: .365

Away AVG: .278

Home OBP: .429

Away OBP: .342

Home SLG: .664

Away SLG: .450

Home OPS: 1.093

Away OPS: .792

[Jayhawk Bill]

I can't quite put my finger on what my issue is with Holliday....

 

Home AB: 1256

Away AB: 1214

Home HR: 81

Away HR: 40

Home RBI: 294

Away RBI: 163

Home AVG: .365

Away AVG: .278

Home OBP: .429

Away OBP: .342

Home SLG: .664

Away SLG: .450

Home OPS: 1.093

Away OPS: .792

 

Yes, but, in fairness, 2004-2005 had disproportionate impact on that split.

 

Matt Holliday in Fenway would be a similar batter to JD Drew, IMO. That's not what people think when they see his Colorado stats, but it's still valuable.

[example1]

Yes, but, in fairness, 2004-2005 had disproportionate impact on that split.

 

Matt Holliday in Fenway would be a similar batter to JD Drew, IMO. That's not what people think when they see his Colorado stats, but it's still valuable.

 

Wouldn't he have the distinct advantage of being right-handed though?

 

I would be more than happy to add another JD Drew type bat to the Sox lineup. I would expect Holliday to have a home field advantage in Fenway like he does in Coors (not as strong, but noticable like many other Sox players) and to take advantage of a strong lineup for some inflated numbers. I would expect 30/110 from Holliday in Boston, with Manny-esque OBP and AVG numbers. not bad. :dunno:

[ORS]

Not only is Fenway unlikely to hurt his home numbers due to handedness and park configuration, but his primary road parks will become more hitter friendly.

 

By ESPN's park factors, which appear to be calculated per season, not as 3 year aggregates. In the past 3 complete seasons, the AL East road parks for the Sox averaged a 10th place finish in HR factor. Of the 12 seasons (3 years, 4 teams), 6 were in the top-10. The NL West road parks for Holliday averaged a 17th place finish, with only 2 seasons in the top-10.

[BSN07]

The NL West parks are as pitcher friendly as they come. You put Holliday in the Sox lineup where he will have adequate protection unlike Colorado, he could put up big numbers. Look what coming to the Sox did for Lowell. Holliday could be a doubles machine, and put up good HR totals. I still say the ship Manny to NYM for a prospect and relief arm, then take the prospect and add a few more in and send them to Colorado for Holliday and Fuentes. Manny is gone, we get an adequate RH power hitter for the future, and a LH RP for this years stretch run.

 

Bowden,Kalish,Moss,+NYM prospect asnd possibly one more lower level prospect from the Sox. Thats a pretty nice haul for the Rox.

[ORS]

Bowden' date='Kalish,Moss,+NYM prospect asnd possibly one more lower level prospect from the Sox. Thats a pretty nice haul for the Rox.[/quote']

Sure is, and it makes absolutely no sense to give it up now when there's a good chance you can get him for just money and your first round draft pick.

 

While a replacement for Manny will be required for the '09 team, you don't have to have to give up that much talent to do it right now.

 

EDIT: Especially not when the COF class is looking to be deep in the '09 offseason. Bay, Dye, and Ordonez will all hit the market provided they aren't extended or traded/signed.

 

This is if they decide to try Moss out next year.

 

If they elect to go for an immediate replacement, Dunn, Burrell, and Vlad will be available this offseason.

[example1]

The NL West parks are as pitcher friendly as they come. You put Holliday in the Sox lineup where he will have adequate protection unlike Colorado, he could put up big numbers. Look what coming to the Sox did for Lowell. Holliday could be a doubles machine, and put up good HR totals. I still say the ship Manny to NYM for a prospect and relief arm, then take the prospect and add a few more in and send them to Colorado for Holliday and Fuentes. Manny is gone, we get an adequate RH power hitter for the future, and a LH RP for this years stretch run.

 

Bowden,Kalish,Moss,+NYM prospect asnd possibly one more lower level prospect from the Sox. Thats a pretty nice haul for the Rox.

 

I'm just afraid that the Rox would need to get more MLB ready talent than that package, if at least in name recognition. Add Crisp or Ellsbury to the mix (weren't they interested in Crisp in the past?) and maybe Masterson and we'd be getting closer to something they may want for Holliday. If I were the Rockies I would have no interest in moving Holliday without a very nice package coming back.

 

Ellsbury + Bowden + NYM prospect for Holliday? Add more to get Fuentes back?

 

It's a huge package from BOS perspective, but getting Holliday at 28, getting rid of Manny and being able to solidify the lineup for another 7 years (with some reasonable Holliday extension) would be just what the Dr ordered in this situation.

 

I'm never one for moving big pieces, especially not of Ellsbury and Bowden's caliber. However, I think the Sox did the right thing in moving Hanley and Anibel for Beckett and Lowell (Lowell as the throw-in) and the Sox are lucky enough to have Coco to play CF for the forseeable future, they don't need a "leadoff" hitter (a la Ellsbury), thought it would be preferable. Coco can hit at the bottom of the order with Pedroia and Youk at the top. If Coco gets injured they can move Drew to CF and play Moss in RF.

 

It would be preferable to move Coco to Ellsbury, so perhaps throwing in Bard or Lars would mitigate that.

 

I don't know how I feel about it, but it seems to me this would be a now and future move so it might be worth overpaying to get the guy they WANT, rather than a Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn, who would be nice but not actual replacements for Manny.

 

Lineup would be:

 

Pedroia

Youkilis

Ortiz

Holliday

Lowell

Drew/Moss

Varitek/Cash

Lugo/Jed

Coco

 

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Lester

Wakefield

Buchholz

 

Timlin

Delcarmen

Masterson

Aardsma/Hansen

Lopez

Oki

Fuentes

Papelbon

 

It would also open up some spots for Lin, Kalish or Reddick in the OF in the near future.

 

Pipedream? Yes.

 

However, now might be one of the few times the Sox would be willing to overpay to get his highly paid complaining ass out of the clubhouse.

[ORS]

Uh, Pat the Bat would put up better numbers than Manny is capable of right now. His home park is a bandbox, but he tends to take the ball out to LF when he goes deep. Fenway, best I can tell, is pretty good for RH pull hitters.

[Gom]

I don't think teams are as high on your prospects as you are. The same holds true for us, but Ellsbury has taken a MAJOR hit this season. Bowden isn't that high on a lot of GMs list either. If you want Holliday, you'd have to talk Buchholz, Masterson, and/or Lowrie. Some sort of combo, anyways.

[example1]

Uh' date=' Pat the Bat would put up better numbers than Manny is capable of right now. His home park is a bandbox, but he tends to take the ball out to LF when he goes deep. Fenway, best I can tell, is pretty good for RH pull hitters.[/quote']

 

Pat would definitely put up good numbers, but I don't trust him as a middle-of-the-order bat for the next 5-6 years. Do you? (not a rhetorical question).

 

Looking at his stats, Bat has had some really good seasons. Perhaps he would be an adequate replacement... solidly around .900 OPS every year, though PHI has something to do with that. My sense (not backed up by the numbers necessarily) is that he's pretty inconsistent. Over the course of seasons, however, he's obviously a good option. He could be an Abreu-esque pick up for the Sox... not the biggest bat in the lineup, but a nice addition to the 6-7-8 hole. This would allow Drew to hit 3-4 or 5 and would obviously cost less than getting Holliday.

 

The question is whether Manny will be a good-faith participant this year or not.

[BoSox21]

but Ellsbury has taken a MAJOR hit this season.

 

how so? because he's a rookie who is going through a slump like a vast majority of rookies do? do you need to be reminded how abysmal Dustin Pedroia was before he became one of the best hitters in the AL?

 

he's still batting around .265 and remains one of, if not the most dangerous base-runner in baseball not to mention his above-average defensive ability

[example1]

I don't think teams are as high on your prospects as you are. The same holds true for us' date=' but Ellsbury has taken a MAJOR hit this season. Bowden isn't that high on a lot of GMs list either. If you want Holliday, you'd have to talk Buchholz, Masterson, and/or Lowrie. Some sort of combo, anyways.[/quote']

 

Ellsbury's value has taken a hit but Buchholz's hasn't? I don't think that's right. I think most GMs would still view them both very highly and that we're going to see a lot more out of Ellsbury this year.

 

You may be right about Bowden, but he seems to do well putting up good numbers even if his stuff isn't as spectacular as Buchholz's. He's worth a shot, for sure.