Johan Santana

[rician blast]

Sean, let Mean know, from me, I hope all works out. This sucks, particularly at this time of year.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Then ask yourself who had the lower ERA' date=' BB and more K's? That and if you're just gonna comapre W-L record, look at Schilling from last year, 15-7. This year he got hurt and when 9-8, despite he never fails us in the postseason, I'm comparing him to Wakefield since they are both in the same boat age wise and injury prone wise.[/quote']

 

Cheez, read my post:

 

Look' date=' we know that Santana's the better pitcher of the two. I'm just sayin' that Tim Wakefield isn't necessarily entering his last--or next-to-last--season next spring.[/quote']

 

You gave a 17-win pitcher two more years, max. The true knuckleball pitchers--Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough--are good to around age 45. Guys like Joe Niekro or Candiotti who use the knuckleball with other pitches fade around 40, but Wakefield has a good chance of lasting a few more seasons.

 

As does, of course, Johan Santana.

[cam780]

Cheez, read my post:

 

 

 

You gave a 17-win pitcher two more years, max. The true knuckleball pitchers--Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough--are good to around age 45. Guys like Joe Niekro or Candiotti who use the knuckleball with other pitches fade around 40, but Wakefield has a good chance of lasting a few more seasons.

 

As does, of course, Johan Santana.

 

I agree his arm could probably last a few more seasons my concern is his back lasting those same seasons.

 

On another note, I was wondering how people think the Santana situation is going to affect dealing Crisp? Personally, its a debate that I've gone back and forth on. I think Crisp is more valuable to this team as a fourth outfielder than as a resource for a backup catcher because I dont' see Varitek retiring for awhile and so long as he's here regardless of offensive output he will be in the lineup. If Santana isn't dealt this offseason, I tend to see him staying until midseason and being included in a package to acquire a a player that would factor in more so than a bench player but I don't know my gut has been wrong most of this current offseason.

[example1]

I agree his arm could probably last a few more seasons my concern is his back lasting those same seasons.

 

On another note, I was wondering how people think the Santana situation is going to affect dealing Crisp? Personally, its a debate that I've gone back and forth on. I think Crisp is more valuable to this team as a fourth outfielder than as a resource for a backup catcher because I dont' see Varitek retiring for awhile and so long as he's here regardless of offensive output he will be in the lineup. If Santana isn't dealt this offseason, I tend to see him staying until midseason and being included in a package to acquire a a player that would factor in more so than a bench player but I don't know my gut has been wrong most of this current offseason.

 

I would bet that the Sox have a few offers for Crisp out there and that they have a pretty good idea what they want to do. I think they'll let the Santana trade just sit out there, each variation acceptable to the Sox (ellsbury, masterson, Lowrie or Lester, Masterson, Lowrie, Crisp, +1). They are in no real hurry to get anything done; Santana would be a great addition but they are sleeping comfortably with their team currently.

[Ray10]

All I know is that I hate waiting to see if the Sox are going to get this guy or not I wish they would just get the thing done if they are going to. I can't stand waiting around to see what's going to happen.

[Thumper]

All I know is that I hate waiting to see if the Sox are going to get this guy or not I wish they would just get the thing done if they are going to. I can't stand waiting around to see what's going to happen.

 

Honestly I don't think anything will happen. Red Sox and Twins won't be able to come to terms and the deal will be cancelled.

[BSN07]

Even if we don't get Santana, this is a win for the Sox by keeping him out of NY so far.

 

 

But he could always end up there, since Hanky poo is all ready starting to back off his deadline. This guy is going to be the laughing stock of the league soon....

[riverside sluggers]

I will be surprised if Coco is the 4th outfielder on opening day

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I will be surprised if Coco is the 4th outfielder on opening day

 

Especially after his agent came out and said Coco expects to start this season.

[BSN07]

Coco probably will be traded. Theo will ship him in the deal to Minny for santana or some team will get desperate for a CF down the line and will offer Theo a nice return.

[Strotorious]

He'll probably be traded, but not any time soon. The Sox have to wait until after Santana's fate is decided, plus Crisp's value should go up once Rowand is off the market. Philadelphia makes sense since they're not expected to resign Rowand and I've heard they're interested in Tavarez. Does anyone know if the Phillies have anyone we could use?

[YAZMAN]

He'll probably be traded' date=' but not any time soon. The Sox have to wait until after Santana's fate is decided, plus Crisp's value should go up once Rowand is off the market. Philadelphia makes sense since they're not expected to resign Rowand and I've heard they're interested in Tavarez. Does anyone know if the Phillies have anyone we could use?[/quote']

 

There's a few guys here who would trade him for a cheesesteak and a couple of cold Yuenglings.

[das11209]

The Minneapolis Star Tribune's La Velle E. Neal III said he was told Saturday, by a well-placed source, that the Twins "have had a lot of good dialogue lately with the Red Sox."

 

Indications are that the Red Sox and Mets have been chatting the most with the Twins regarding Johan Santana, though the Yankees probably still aren't completely out of it. There's been nothing to suggest the Mariners or Rangers have continued talks or that the Angels ever got into the mix in the first place. It's still possible that something will happen next week.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I wonder if the Red Sox can work with the Mets and Twins on a three team deal. Send Johan Santana to the NL and bring Jose Reyes to Boston. I'm not going to think about a possible trade scenario...I'm just wondering if they could figure it out.

 

Send Julio Lugo and Johan Santana to the Mets. Bring Jose Reyes to the Red Sox. Both teams group a good number of prospects to the Twins.

[BSN07]

I wonder if the Red Sox can work with the Mets and Twins on a three team deal. Send Johan Santana to the NL and bring Jose Reyes to Boston. I'm not going to think about a possible trade scenario...I'm just wondering if they could figure it out.

 

Send Julio Lugo and Johan Santana to the Mets. Bring Jose Reyes to the Red Sox. Both teams group a good number of prospects to the Twins.

 

Sounds like something creative. It would depends on who we would ship out.

 

I'll make a guess at the deal....

 

Minny gets,

Coco,Lowrie,Masterson,Humber/Pelfrey,Masterson/Bowden(maybe both), Gomez.

 

Sox get,

Reyes, + a RP or prospect

 

NYM get,

Santana, Lugo

 

 

I think everyone would make out pretty well on a deal that looks like this or some variation of it

Just a guess guys...

[example1]

I don't see how the Sox could hope to piggyback on that deal, given that the Mets and Twins would be giving up Reyes, Humber/Pelfrey and Santana respectively, while the Sox merely give up Lugo, Coco, Lowrie, Masterson and Bowden. Add Lester or Ellsbury and it might make more sense.

 

removed bit about Kazmir

 

I think it is about time the Mets started bringing back the NL to respectability. There is no reason the NL can't have a strong team that is willing to try to blow other teams out of the water.

[BSN07]

I don't see how the Sox could hope to piggyback on that deal, given that the Mets and Twins would be giving up Reyes, Humber/Pelfrey and Santana respectively, while the Sox merely give up Lugo, Coco, Lowrie, Masterson and Bowden. Add Lester or Ellsbury and it might make more sense.

 

Let's hope the Mets aren't looking at putting Scott Kazmir in this deal or that would kill any chance the Sox have of getting in.

 

I think it is about time the Mets started bringing back the NL to respectability. There is no reason the NL can't have a strong team that is willing to try to blow other teams out of the water.

 

Did I miss something or is this a joke like the thread that was a joke?

[BSN07]

Actually if anything the sox would be getting the light end of the deal, (deal mention previously) They would be trading Coco,Lugo,Lowrie,Masterson/Bowden for Reyes. i think they would probably want something else in the deal.

 

From Minny stand point, a package of Coco,Gomez,Humber/Pelfrey/both, Masterson/Bowden/both is probably the best deal yet.

 

NYM down grade at SS, but they recieve the best LH SP in the game.

 

I don't see Lester in a deal like that, because we wouldn't be getting a SP back in the deal.

[example1]

Did I miss something or is this a joke like the thread that was a joke?

 

Sorry man, didn't look into the thread and haven't caught up much the past few days. I was lead astray. I'm an idiot.

 

The Mets' chances of topping the Sox package is pretty low without the inclusion of a young MLB established player like Reyes. They have other pieces that are tempting but I think with 'extra' names like Masterson, Bowden, and Lester floating around, along with guys like Crisp, the Sox have a deeper pool to draw from.

 

Dually edited.

[cam780]

I don't think the Mets have any interest in dealing Reyes and I don't think the Red Sox would have any interest in him. Ellsbury can do everything that he does well for less money. I also don't think the Sox have any interest in helping any other team get Santana.

 

If we're looking to fit multiple partners you have to start with need and I'm finding it hard to come up with the right match. I'm not ruling out a three team deal. I just don't think Reyes would help this team as much as he would help the Twins.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I also don't think the Sox have any interest in helping any other team get Santana.

 

If we're looking to fit multiple partners you have to start with need and I'm finding it hard to come up with the right match. I'm not ruling out a three team deal. I just don't think Reyes would help this team as much as he would help the Twins.

 

Jose Reyes is a premier talent in the league and I can be positive the Red Sox would love to add him. That being said it's not realistic but I wanted to throw it out there cause it's fun to think outside the box.

 

As far as helping a team aquire Santana I don't think they would have a problem if a chip is involved that can help the team. I mean what a way to stick it to the Yankees right? Help the Mets gain an ace pitcher while we walk off with an extremely talented shortstop. My first choice would be to add Johan Santana but if the trade isn't there to be made they may want to consider getting another team involved to move Santana away from the AL.

[BSN07]

if the Sox got someone in the deal they wanted, I could see them helping a team get Santana. Especially if it gets him out of the AL and off the Yankees roster.

[BSN07]

Sox- Reyes,Pelfrey

Mets- Santana, Lugo

Twins- Coco,Lowrie,Masterson/Bowden,Pelfrey,Gomez

 

Everyone makes out on a trade like this...

 

Sox get a electric young SS with big upside+ a solid MRP.

Mets get Santana and a solid SS.

Twins get a huge package of prospects and a solid CF.

[ORS]

Pelfrey moonlights?

[BSN07]

Pelfrey moonlights?

 

hahaha whoops ment Humber...

[das11209]

Let's say ( God forbid) Santana trade works out like A-Rod trade in 2003. We make lot of noise - ultimately the Yankees get him. In that case - I feel OK with our rotation as well as the bullpen. We could use another big bat in the line-up but that's not gonna happen. The two positions I am not happy about is back-up catcher and the bench. Last year - our platoon of Hinske, Cora and WMP was probably one of the worst in the league. This year - how about we go with Carter, Lowrie and Crisp instead( I know Crisp is not happy with his situation). If Lowrie can play 2B and SS from bench - I will dump Cora's ass somewhere else if possible. Anyone agrees/disagrees?

 

Edit - Brandon Moss should be in the mix - and I don't mind Kielty either as a pinch hitter mostly against lefties.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Let's say ( God forbid) Santana trade works out like A-Rod trade in 2003. We make lot of noise - ultimately the Yankees get him. In that case - I feel OK with our rotation as well as the bullpen. We could use another big bat in the line-up but that's not gonna happen. The two positions I am not happy about is back-up catcher and the bench. Last year - our platoon of Hinske, Cora and WMP was probably one of the worst in the league. This year - how about we go with Carter, Lowrie and Crisp instead( I know Crisp is not happy with his situation). If Lowrie can play 2B and SS from bench - I will dump Cora's ass somewhere else if possible. Anyone agrees/disagrees?

 

Edit - Brandon Moss should be in the mix - and I don't mind Kielty either as a pinch hitter mostly against lefties.

 

1) Crisp as a fourth outfielder: agree. Crisp might not like it, but that's where he's needed if Boston retains him. As a fourth outfielder, he's available for pinch running, a skill needed more often by Boston than pinch hitting. Also, Ellsbury hasn't demonstrated that he won't need a platoon partner: his MLB sample is small, and he had trouble at times with LHP in MiLB, including a 129-point OPS split with Boston, a 170-point split at AAA and a much bigger split in his small sample at AA.

 

2) Kielty appears to have been a fit with Boston, and it might be his best offer. I'd take him back.

 

3) I really like Jed Lowrie, but I'd keep Alex Cora and start Lowrie at AAA, moving him around to get him used to a utility role. It's hard gauging minor league players' defense, but Lowrie's range factor as a SS at AA was terrible in 2007--we're talking 2004 Nomar Garciaparra bad. I don't doubt that Lowrie can hit .260/.350/.400 in MLB, even after his recent struggles this offseason. What worries me is that he can't field his position.

 

4) Chris Carter is ready for MLB. He'll never field better than he can today, but at least he's playing first base, not shortstop.

[rician blast]

4) Chris Carter is ready for MLB. He'll never field better than he can today' date=' but at least he's playing first base, not shortstop. [/quote']

 

I'm not convinced that he won't improve defensively.

 

Arm strength and speed are the 2 tools most difficult (impossible in many cases) to improve. However, fielding can be improved, although it is not a given and it does take dedication.

 

Look at Wade Boggs...the thing many teammates were impressed most by was his transformation from, at best, a mediocre 3B to a proficient one...and it was a matter of hard work as opposed to great reflexes or natural ability.

[ksushi]

Chris Carter has never hit outside the PCL and will never be an everyday major leaguer for any substansial peroid of time.

[jacksonianmarch]

In terms of Lowrie, you significantly decrease his worth if he becomes a UTIL guy.