July 21st vs. Chicago

[chacha]

What a difference a few days make!:thumbsup:

 

It's been a joy to watch.

 

Imagine, just 3 days ago, I was so pissed I broke the remote.

[schillingouttheks]

Great win. They look like their back. Keep truckin' into tomorrow!

[ORS]

Crisp is demonstrably better. Is he the leadoff hitter? Is the healthy Crisp demonstrably better than the injured Damon with his lower OBP (a hallmark for a leadoff hitter). As of yesterday, they had the same number of runs scored and HRs. Crisp had one more Stolen Base, but he was caught 4 more times. He's demonstrably better? A healthy Damon runs circles around this guy. An injured Damon is his equal. Theo, thanks for replacing the aging declining player with the younger player that is only as good as the declining player that walked away. Thanks alot. Losing his 2006 productivity is really paying off in the long run.

Only going to count the ones that are close to equivalent, huh? What about BA, SLG, Total Bases, and that kind of important benefit of having a guy play his actual position? Those don't matter? What a joke. Nice version of equivalence. Damon is spending the majority of the time as the DH, where you tend to put a big bat. He's absolutely dragging that team down by putting up a 81 OPS+ from that spot.

 

So, we're supposed to want one good year in exchange for what looks like 3 years of sucking from a spot you should have a big bat? Brilliant.

[CrespoBlows]

I love how he completely ignores Crisp's strongest contribution to the team.

 

Care to tell us above Damon's glove in contrast to Crisp?

[a700hitter]

Only going to count the ones that are close to equivalent, huh? What about BA, SLG, Total Bases, and that kind of important benefit of having a guy play his actual position? Those don't matter? What a joke. Nice version of equivalence. Damon is spending the majority of the time as the DH, where you tend to put a big bat. He's absolutely dragging that team down by putting up a 81 OPS+ from that spot.

 

So, we're supposed to want one good year in exchange for what looks like 3 years of sucking from a spot you should have a big bat? Brilliant.

So, you are concluding that he will suck for the next two years? His injured wheels have no chance of heeling in the offseason? In case you haven't noticed, a healthy Crisp has not been tearing it up this year. In fact, he's been so bad most of the year that he has been batting 7th or lower in the lineup. Like I said. A healthy Damon buries this guy. Coco looked good today with the bat though. Hopefully, it will continue. However, for all the ballyhooing about his improved fielding, he got a horrible jump today on Konerko's pop fly. Absolutely horrible. He leaned back and then froze before he took off. This is the first time that I have seen him live since April. I don't know if his bad jump was picked up on TV.

[a700hitter]

I love how he completely ignores Crisp's strongest contribution to the team.

 

Care to tell us above Damon's glove in contrast to Crisp?

Damon hasn't played the field, because the Yankees have the luxury of having Cabrera who is a much better fielder than Crisp.

[CrespoBlows]

Damon hasn't played the field' date=' because the Yankees have the luxury of having Cabrera who is a much better fielder than Crisp.[/quote']

 

[a700hitter]

Cabrera is much better. He is every bit as good if not better at chasing down flies, plus he has something called an arm. Crisk can't even accurately hit a cutoff man. At least Damon could do that. Crisp has got the weakest arm of any CF since Mickey Rivers.

[CrespoBlows]

Are games scored in OPS these days? I think runs still matter. Run production fell when Damon left and it is still down.

 

Leadoff hitters got on base more frequently than Damon did in 2006. Who ever was batting leadoff was totally irrelevant through July. That team was on pace to score more runs than the team in 2005. It would have done so, but what happened?

 

6/9 starting players went down to injury. Two others played hurt, and slumped. The other was just not that good.

 

 

 

The FO has not adequately replaced him. Who is our leadoff hitter? I forgot. We don't have one.

 

Take your pick.

 

Drew

Youkilis

Pedroia

 

All of these guys get on base at a much better rate than Damon.

[CrespoBlows]

Cabrera is much better. He is every bit as good if not better at chasing down flies' date=' plus he has something called an arm. Crisk can't even accurately hit a cutoff man. At least Damon could do that. Crisp has got the weakest arm of any CF since Mickey Rivers.[/quote']

 

[ORS]

Well, in case you haven't noticed as has been reported, a healthy Crisp developed a bad habit in his swing mechanics coming off the injury as compensation. That was corrected in early June. Look at the last two months....

 

[table]Month|BA|OBP|SLG

June|.330|.362|.455

July|.276|.364|.552[/table]

 

That's almost two months of .308/.363/.494 (and this isn't including today). It's too early and unlikely to call this what to expect going forward. And I agree, we need the Damon deal to play all the way out to determine the merits of that non-signing. But you are flat out wrong. A healthy Damon, which is unlikely to happen with any regularity anymore (it's his legs and he's a speed guy = not good), does not bury this guy. We've seen about two straight months of the Coco we saw at the beginning of last year, and that guy is Damon's equal.

[a700hitter]

Leadoff hitters got on base more frequently than Damon did in 2006. Who ever was batting leadoff was totally irrelevant through July. That team was on pace to score more runs than the team in 2005. It would have done so, but what happened?

 

6/9 starting players went down to injury. Two others played hurt, and slumped. The other was just not that good.

Damon stayed healthy the entire year and kept the Yankees in the race, plus he hit more HRs than any Red Sox not named Manny or Ortiz. Maybe he could have helped us.

[CrespoBlows]

Damon stayed healthy the entire year and kept the Yankees in the race' date=' plus he hit more HRs than any Red Sox not named Manny or Ortiz. Maybe he could have helped us.[/quote']

 

I wonder if Yankee Stadium had anything to do with that.

[ORS]

Cabrera is better in CF than Crisp? By what measure? The superterrific 700 "I watched Melky make a nice play and Crisp make a bad one so listen to me" metric? Unless you are watching every inning both of them play in the field, noting starting position, jump, distance covered, and extra bases limited, then it's just more hogwash to fellate Damon with.

 

By THT's ZR, BP's Rate2, and UZR/gm, they are equals.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Damon stayed healthy the entire year and kept the Yankees in the race' date=' plus he hit more HRs than any Red Sox not named Manny or Ortiz. Maybe he could have helped us.[/quote']

 

Yeah, we totally removed one of our best power bats from the lineup for the light hitting Crisp. Except that, Crisp hit 6 more homers than Damon the year before we swapped them. Oops.

[a700hitter]

I wonder if Yankee Stadium had anything to do with that.

How many of Damon's HRs did you see last year? Living in NY, I saw every one of them. The stadium maybe and I stress maybe gave him 3 or 4 HRs. He was blasting shots into the upperdeck and the bleachers. He hit 11 on the road and 13 at home. He also hit 3 against the Sox at Fenway, but only 1 at Yankee stadium. Nice stab at a guess, but you are way wrong on this one.

[a700hitter]

Cabrera is better in CF than Crisp? By what measure? The superterrific 700 "I watched Melky make a nice play and Crisp make a bad one so listen to me" metric? Unless you are watching every inning both of them play in the field, noting starting position, jump, distance covered, and extra bases limited, then it's just more hogwash to fellate Damon with.

 

By THT's ZR, BP's Rate2, and UZR/gm, they are equals.

Yeah, that's the one. My eyes don't lie to me, and I have watched a lot of both of these guys. Is there a stat that will show if Crisp can throw the ball to 2nd base on the fly? As for stats, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Yeah' date=' that's the one. My eyes don't lie to me, and I have watched a lot of both of these guys. Is there a stat that will show if Crisp can throw the ball to 2nd base on the fly? As for stats, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.[/quote']

 

If we're going to go by that metric, how about when Crisp threw out Pierzynski yesterday?

[ORS]

What a banal answer. Totally trite and predictable.

[CrespoBlows]

How many of Damon's HRs did you see last year? Living in NY' date=' I saw every one of them. The stadium maybe and I stress maybe gave him 3 or 4 HRs. He was blasting shots into the upperdeck and the bleachers. He hit 11 on the road and 13 at home. He also hit 3 against the Sox at Fenway, but only 1 at Yankee stadium. Nice stab at a guess, but you are way wrong on this one.[/quote']

 

Let's ignore park factors in exchange for what a700hitter saw.

 

The Riptide Rimjobs, who play on the Moon, have recently signed Johnny Damon to a four year contract. Damon will be sure to see his power numbers take a serious spike, as every flyball is a home run.

 

Johnny Damon starts the season 4-4 with 4 HR's.

 

"Park Factors are a BS stat, that I don't need, because I saw Damon hit those HR's. They would have been out in every park. Theo is making this up. Ballwashers can't get over that Damon is better than Ted Williams."

[a700hitter]

I have to say that I really get a big kick out of arguing with Red Sox fans that a Yankee player is better than a Red Sox player. It's quite funny that you guys treat me as if I am biased in favor of the Yankee players. That notion is so ludicrous that it really makes me laugh. I have despised everything with pinstripes for longer than most of you have been alive. I hate it if a Yankee player is better than his Red Sox counterpart. I live for the day when Mo Rivera becomes Heathcliff Slocumb. Maybe, just maybe you guys are letting your fandom bias your opinions? When I was an adolescent and young adult, I was a fan of the players every bit as much as I was a fan of the team. I'd argue Red Sox players over Yankee players all day long. Now, I am a fan of the uniform and not much for the individual players. I guess that's why I am more critical than some of you. Also, living in NY and watching just about every Yankee game gives me a fairly good basis for my opinions. The game is played by individuals not statiscs. Gary Sheffield has just about as many steals as Coco Crisp, but my eyes tell me that Crisp is faster, regardless of the statistics.

[example1]

Damon stayed healthy the entire year and kept the Yankees in the race' date=' plus he hit more HRs than any Red Sox not named Manny or Ortiz. Maybe he could have helped us.[/quote']

 

I guess I don't get why you're so stuck on Damon leaving? They have lost a number of players, but Damon is the one you are most upset about, even now that Crisp is as advertized. Can't you let it go? damon was good for one year after the deal. The Sox really blew it last year by not being able to sign damon to a one year deal. From here on out, however, most teams would take Crisp. I bet you the Yankees would take Crisp right now.

[a700hitter]

Let's ignore park factors in exchange for what a700hitter saw.

 

The Riptide Rimjobs, who play on the Moon, have recently signed Johnny Damon to a four year contract. Damon will be sure to see his power numbers take a serious spike, as every flyball is a home run.

 

Johnny Damon starts the season 4-4 with 4 HR's.

 

"Park Factors are a BS stat, that I don't need, because I saw Damon hit those HR's. They would have been out in every park. Theo is making this up. Ballwashers can't get over that Damon is better than Ted Williams."

I invite you to pull video of Damons 13 Yankee stadium HRS last year and find me more than 3 or 4 that would not have been out of Fenway. If you can't find me more than 4, then stop being a smug *******. I think upper deck Yankee stadium RF HRs just might go out of Fenway... do you think?

[example1]

I have to say that I really get a big kick out of arguing with Red Sox fans that a Yankee player is better than a Red Sox player. It's quite funny that you guys treat me as if I am biased in favor of the Yankee players. That notion is so ludicrous that it really makes me laugh. I have despised everything with pinstripes for longer than most of you have been alive. I hate it if a Yankee player is better than his Red Sox counterpart. I live for the day when Mo Rivera becomes Heathcliff Slocumb. Maybe' date=' just maybe you guys are letting your fandom bias your opinions? When I was an adolescent and young adult, I was a fan of the players every bit as much as I was a fan of the team. I'd argue Red Sox players over Yankee players all day long. Now, I am a fan of the uniform and not much for the individual players. I guess that's why I am more critical than some of you. Also, living in NY and watching just about every Yankee game gives me a fairly good basis for my opinions. The game is played by individuals not statiscs. Gary Sheffield has just about as many steals as Coco Crisp, but my eyes tell me that Crisp is faster, regardless of the statistics.[/quote']

 

So, you feel it is in the uniform's best interest to have us believe that Damon is clearly better than the current guy who wears our uniform? By all means, root for anyone who is in a Sox uniform, but please, feel more free to root for guys in a sox uniform who also have the statistics to back it up.

 

I don't feel like I"m that attached to particular players, though there is a cetain core of this team that is likeable and fun to watch (Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, Papelbon, etc.,). Those guys have all established their upside with the Red Sox. Players like Lugo and Crisp and Drew really haven't. So when Manny and Ortiz or Varitek struggle I am more critical of their performance, knowing what they are capable of when most of the other variables are the same (i.e., in the AL, against certain regularly-seen pitchers, in various parks, under the 'pressure' of Boston). When a guy like Lugo or Renteria or WMP come along I don't feel like I can be very critical of their overallvalue until they are a majority of the way through their contract and they have had time to play. I think that just makes good sense. You wouldn't put a definitive label on the first 6 months of a President's first term, so why be overly critical of the players.

 

I think it is easy to think that we can see talent. I don't think we can see talent. I think we see the results of talent. All players are capable of doing something special at any paritcular time, but doing the little things right, while also occasionally coming through big is the type of thing that only statistics can really paint clearly. They allow two people (with their biases and individual views) to judge the same body of work in a semi-objective way.

 

I appreciate your long term dedication to the Red Sox a700. The passion is the same in many of us, the individual backgrounds and personal philosophies are not.

[a700hitter]

I guess I don't get why you're so stuck on Damon leaving? They have lost a number of players' date=' but Damon is the one you are most upset about, even now that Crisp is as advertized. Can't you let it go? damon was good for one year after the deal. The Sox really blew it last year by not being able to sign damon to a one year deal. From here on out, however, most teams would take Crisp. I bet you the Yankees would take Crisp right now.[/quote']It's not Damon. It is his Red Sox production that they have not replaced. I don't want the 2007 version of Damon although it is still comparable to Crisp. My point is that the FO has not gotten a reliable leadoff hitter for this team resulting in much lower production for the entire lineup. The leadoff guys are called table setters for a reason. Crisp is doing much better. He is finally lining balls consistently just like I saw him doing in ST 2006. Oh, I am sorry ORS and Mr. Blows. I forgot that my in person observations mean nothing. To you bloop hits and screaming liners are all the same on a stat sheet anyway. Example, sorry for the digression, but as good as Crisp is doing recently, our own management does not seem to think he is a good leadoff hitter, and #8 hitters don't have the same impact on team offensive production as leadoff hitters, but I am sure ORS has some stat that shows #8 hitters and head groundskeepers contribute to as many wins as leadoff hitters.

[CrespoBlows]

I invite you to pull video of Damons 13 Yankee stadium HRS last year and find me more than 3 or 4 that would not have been out of Fenway. If you can't find me more than 4' date=' then stop being a smug *******. I think upper deck Yankee stadium RF HRs just might go out of Fenway... do you think?[/quote']

 

Do some research. I can imagine if you were around in the 1600's, you'd refuse to believe that gravity existed.

 

"I don't see gravity, my eyes don't lie to me. Gravity was invented to make _____ (fill in the name of gutty, gritty lancer) look bad."

 

Look at the park factors for left handed hitters at Fenway. Then look at them at Yankee Stadium. Fenway hasn't been above 100, since 1996, Yankee Stadium is usually in the range of 135-150.

 

When Damon takes a shot at a HR, he is a dead pull hitter. Do you have any idea how short Yankee Stadium is to RF? 314 feet. The upper deck hangs almost right above the lower deck. I'm watched a few of those "monsterous" shots you are touting. I'm guessing that none of them traveled further than 360 feet. The majority of them, landed right into the first row of the upper deck. Hardly a moon shot.

 

Have you seen any ball at Fenway carry at all? There are no prevailing winds to push any ball out to RCF.

 

You want to take a shot to how many HR's have been hit out by Red Sox LHB this year? Eight. Forgive me, if I'm not in awe of Johnny Damon's Yankee Stadium produced power.

[ORS]

It's not Damon. It is his Red Sox production that they have not replaced. I don't want the 2007 version of Damon although it is still comparable to Crisp. My point is that the FO has not gotten a reliable leadoff hitter for this team resulting in much lower production for the entire lineup. The leadoff guys are called table setters for a reason. Crisp is doing much better. He is finally lining balls consistently just like I saw him doing in ST 2006. Oh' date=' I am sorry ORS and Mr. Blows. I forgot that my in person observations mean nothing. To you bloop hits and screaming liners are all the same on a stat sheet anyway. Example, sorry for the digression, but as good as Crisp is doing recently, our own management does not seem to think he is a good leadoff hitter, and #8 hitters don't have the same impact on team offensive production as leadoff hitters, but I am sure ORS has some stat that shows #8 hitters and head groundskeepers contribute to as many wins as leadoff hitters.[/quote']

It's not Damon? Then who have you been clamoring for? You can't fantacize about some ideal player that doesn't exist. Give me a name, or this is just a ruse because Damon is not the answer given his performance this year. What a sad attempt at backpeddaling out of this argument.

 

And, for someone who gets so touchy about smugness, you certainly have no problem throwing it around. But, that's ok, I expect it. I mean, it's not like you'll take the time to read what modern statistics are all about, so since you can't use them, you ridicule them. Whatever, it's your loss.

[a700hitter]

So' date=' you feel it is in the [i']uniform's[/i] best interest to have us believe that Damon is clearly better than the current guy who wears our uniform? By all means, root for anyone who is in a Sox uniform, but please, feel more free to root for guys in a sox uniform who also have the statistics to back it up.

Our opinions here have no effect on the team's performance one way or the other, so I don't know what point you are making.

I don't feel like I"m that attached to particular players' date=' though there is a cetain core of this team that is likeable and fun to watch (Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, Papelbon, etc.,).[/quote'] Likeability is not a factor that I consider. I enjoy watching some players more than others because of the way they play the game, but I don't make any connection with likeability.

When a guy like Lugo or Renteria or WMP come along I don't feel like I can be very critical of their overallvalue until they are a majority of the way through their contract and they have had time to play. I think that just makes good sense. You wouldn't put a definitive label on the first 6 months of a President's first term, so why be overly critical of the players.I think it is easy to think that we can see talent. I don't think we can see talent. I think we see the results of talent. All players are capable of doing something special at any paritcular time, but doing the little things right, while also occasionally coming through big is the type of thing that only statistics can really paint clearly. They allow two people (with their biases and individual views) to judge the same body of work in a semi-objective way.

I don't agree with this. It doesn't take more than a few games of watching WMP in RF or LF to know that he is a defensive liability. It doesn't take a lot of games to realize that Youkilis is slow and that he clogs the base paths. You don't need to see Lowell or Gonzo alot to know that they are really good fielders. ORS, is the uptick in Lowell's errors proof that he is not a good fielder, or maybe it is indicative that his fielding is in a decline due to age?

 

I appreciate your long term dedication to the Red Sox a700. The passion is the same in many of us' date=' the individual backgrounds and personal philosophies are not.[/quote']Philosophy? I didn't know that I had a philosophy. I just thought I was a fan who has watched a lot of baseball over 40 years and formed certain opinions. Has advanced statistical analysis and calculus become a requirement of fandom? You may think you have a philosphy, but what you call a philosophy is really just your opinion.

[CrespoBlows]

It doesn't take a lot of games to realize that Youkilis is slow and that he clogs the base paths.

 

That clinches it.

 

This guy is Joe Morgan, Dusty Baker, or Steve Phillips.

 

Hey Dusty, why the f*** did you bat Neifi Perez and Corey Patterson at the top of the lineup?

[a700hitter]

You want to take a shot to how many HR's have been hit out by Red Sox LHB this year? Eight. Forgive me' date=' if I'm not in awe of Johnny Damon's Yankee Stadium produced power.[/quote']Mr. Blows, I guess Damon just doesn't have much respect for Park Factors since a healthy Damon hit 3 in Fenway last year in a visitors uniform. Maybe the prevailing winds were much different? Perhaps there was some sort of strange wind current blowing out to RF in Fenway when he was at bat last season. Maybe it was El Nino?