Disappointed in the Front Office

[Plumpamania]

I am extremely disappointed in our front office as of today. I wasn't that happy during the offseason either, but after looking at all the moves made, I'm extremely unhappy.

 

First off, I know the market was horrible. I understand that. I understand they want to put a winning combination around an aging Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Curt Schilling.

 

But the contracts handed out where horrific. Julio Lugo, I defended because of the market and of the position he plays. But he isn't worth anywhere near his paygrade. J.D. Drew is a fantastic player if he goes back to his Atlanta form, and he's still in the prime of his career, and I think that will only help his numbers. But he's a *****. Plain and simple.

 

We had a good farm system that needed some work. This offseason was a clear example that Theo Epstein wasn't given what he was promised, and that is full control of baseball operations. This offseason reeks of Larry Lucchino and his brass. They took what Epstein learned from Billy Beane and his studies of Bill James and the others, and Larry just looked at matured players that had the values that Epstein brought to the Red Sox organization.

 

If you look at the Red Sox organization before Theo Epstein arrived, the team was full of free swingers and hackers who went up to hit, not get on base. Epstein then brings in Millar, Mueller, Ortiz and Bellhorn, all undervalued players who...guess what...got on base. He rid the team of hackers like Shea Hillenbrand and others who refused to remodel their games and take more pitches and to accept a BB. And he did it all at the token of only a few million dollars. Including David Ortiz who was signed for $1,000,000.

 

Now we see a total change in philosophy all of a sudden and the Sox went spend happy with huge, long contracts. Something Theo Epstein was against since Day 1. He stated many times that he didn't like anything more than a 3 year contract and hated giving out any type of a no trade clause. However what do we see given to Lugo and Drew? The exact opposite of what Epstein wants.

 

Last off season was a pure Epstein offseason. Despite his undervaluing of a sputtering Hanley Ramirez, who hadn't done what was expected of him in AA (and we all know how he turned out for his MLB squad) and Anibal the Animal Sanchez for then a premiere SP in Josh Beckett whom was only 26 years old, and had beaten the dreaded Yankees in October before. And the trade of Andy Marte for Coco Crisp. That was a total Epstein offseason. (Including the dumb idea of trading Mirabelli, who even while aging, was more valuable for Wakefield).

 

This offseason wasn't an Epstein offseason. And that's what is pissing me off.

 

To Larry Lucchino. **** you.

 

Love Plump.

[riverside sluggers]

Matsuzaka was a bad move? Alrighty

[MANNYHOF24]

I am extremely disappointed in our front office as of today. I wasn't that happy during the offseason either, but after looking at all the moves made, I'm extremely unhappy.

 

First off, I know the market was horrible. I understand that. I understand they want to put a winning combination around an aging Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Curt Schilling.

 

But the contracts handed out where horrific. Julio Lugo, I defended because of the market and of the position he plays. But he isn't worth anywhere near his paygrade. J.D. Drew is a fantastic player if he goes back to his Atlanta form, and he's still in the prime of his career, and I think that will only help his numbers. But he's a *****. Plain and simple.

 

We had a good farm system that needed some work. This offseason was a clear example that Theo Epstein wasn't given what he was promised, and that is full control of baseball operations. This offseason reeks of Larry Lucchino and his brass. They took what Epstein learned from Billy Beane and his studies of Bill James and the others, and Larry just looked at matured players that had the values that Epstein brought to the Red Sox organization.

 

If you look at the Red Sox organization before Theo Epstein arrived, the team was full of free swingers and hackers who went up to hit, not get on base. Epstein then brings in Millar, Mueller, Ortiz and Bellhorn, all undervalued players who...guess what...got on base. He rid the team of hackers like Shea Hillenbrand and others who refused to remodel their games and take more pitches and to accept a BB. And he did it all at the token of only a few million dollars. Including David Ortiz who was signed for $1,000,000.

 

Now we see a total change in philosophy all of a sudden and the Sox went spend happy with huge, long contracts. Something Theo Epstein was against since Day 1. He stated many times that he didn't like anything more than a 3 year contract and hated giving out any type of a no trade clause. However what do we see given to Lugo and Drew? The exact opposite of what Epstein wants.

 

Last off season was a pure Epstein offseason. Despite his undervaluing of a sputtering Hanley Ramirez, who hadn't done what was expected of him in AA (and we all know how he turned out for his MLB squad) and Anibal the Animal Sanchez for then a premiere SP in Josh Beckett whom was only 26 years old, and had beaten the dreaded Yankees in October before. And the trade of Andy Marte for Coco Crisp. That was a total Epstein offseason. (Including the dumb idea of trading Mirabelli, who even while aging, was more valuable for Wakefield).

 

This offseason wasn't an Epstein offseason. And that's what is pissing me off.

 

To Larry Lucchino. **** you.

 

Love Plump.

 

So what are you saying, you hate Epstein and Lucchino? So you hate it when the team improves and you were satisfied with last years performance. You my friend are an idiot.

[Plumpamania]

I never named Dice-K as a bad move. However, he's still an unproven commodity. Spending $30+ million on Julio Lugo isn't a good move. I don't care if he continues to put up a .350 OBP. It's just not a good move to give out that much money to a guy who's never had an .800+ OPS before. I can kind of live with JD Drew, aside from his injury history. I sort of like that move. Sort of.

 

And I don't think this offseason was much of an Epstein off season, I thought I blatantly pointed that out. Larry Lucchino seemed to be in charge this off season. I don't see Epstein signing Lugo to that horrible contract. I really do believe that the Red Sox will be an improvement for the next couple of years due to this off season. But I don't think that in the long term that these moves will have been worth the good two or thee years.

 

I'm not sure you all read what I said. I wasn't satisified with a 3rd place finish. However it was an understood with all the injuries this team had last year. We were in first place into July. I like the Drew signing, but I hate the Lugo signing. And I don't understand why we didn't spend the extra $2 million on Gagne than Piniero. Neither was a solid gimme signing. And there were other options to explore in terms for a closer. Dan Wheeler and/or Chad Qualls and/or Brad Lidge for example. I'd rather have Jorge Julio than have gone into camp with Joel Piniero leading the way.

 

Please read between the lines in posts Mannyhof24. Because you sir, are the idiot.

[castigs850]

ummm, a question if i may. Last year was an Epstein offseason while epstein had been resigned? and are you suggesting that those were good moves even after you have seen the results of them?

 

so i guess 2 questions

[riverside sluggers]

Smart trade- Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta. That was a steal of a trade for the Sox as Loretta turned in a solid stop gap year for the Sox, and was the starting All-Star 2nd baseman. Mirabelli was the worst hitter in baseball with at least 200 ABs

 

Bad trade- Cla Meredith/Josh Bard for Doug Mirabelli

 

The Andy Marte for Coco Crisp trade is looking bright on Cleveland's side of things. Marte is projected to a be a good slugging 3rd baseman for the Guardians. Meanwhile Coco is looking at 2007 as a make or break year because the Sox could be looking at better options: Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Ichiro Suzuki, and Jacoby Ellsbury

[Plumpamania]

Unfortunately it seemed as though last year that Josh Bard wasn't going to be able to catch Wakefield. We raped in terms of the Loretta/Mirabelli deal. But we were forced to get him back due to the defense the catchers were providing us with while Wakefield was on the mound.

 

I'm not sold on Marte. Crisp was projecting last year to be better than Johnny Damon. He started off the season on a tear. Then the broken finger and well, the rest has been complete s***. Crisp is only going into his age 27 year, and even with a horrible spring, I hope he bounces back. Crisp, when obtained was projected to hit 25-30 HR by his age 30 season, with reasonable defense in a corner outfield position.

 

I believe that this past offseason, we didn't address the needs properly outside of JD Drew. Sure Lugo is an offensive improvement, but is he worth $30+ million? No. Did we properly address the closer front? No.

 

However we are lucky to have Papelbon willing to go back to the pen. Sure we lose his 200 IP from the SP role, but we get a great 80 IP from the closers roll, and he'll be protecting the 200 IP from Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka. I believe Lester, with the necessary improvement in control, will be up by mid May to take the #5 spot in the rotation, with Papelbon going to the rotation in 2008.

[redsoxrules]

as far as lugo and drew its too soon to say it was a bad signing , wait at least a couple of years to see how they performed

[Plumpamania]

as far as lugo and drew its too soon to say it was a bad signing ' date=' wait at least a couple of years to see how they performed[/quote']

 

Neither is that young, you can project about the same line they've had the last couple of years as both are in their primes currently. And Lugo still has never had an OPS higher than .786.

[redsoxrules]

Neither is that young' date=' you can project about the same line they've had the last couple of years as both are in their primes currently. And Lugo still has never had an OPS higher than .786.[/color']

 

a change of scenary and ballpark can make a big difference

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

I am extremely disappointed in our front office as of today. I wasn't that happy during the offseason either, but after looking at all the moves made, I'm extremely unhappy.

 

First off, I know the market was horrible. I understand that. I understand they want to put a winning combination around an aging Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Curt Schilling.

 

But the contracts handed out where horrific. Julio Lugo, I defended because of the market and of the position he plays. But he isn't worth anywhere near his paygrade. J.D. Drew is a fantastic player if he goes back to his Atlanta form, and he's still in the prime of his career, and I think that will only help his numbers. But he's a *****. Plain and simple.

 

We had a good farm system that needed some work. This offseason was a clear example that Theo Epstein wasn't given what he was promised, and that is full control of baseball operations. This offseason reeks of Larry Lucchino and his brass. They took what Epstein learned from Billy Beane and his studies of Bill James and the others, and Larry just looked at matured players that had the values that Epstein brought to the Red Sox organization.

 

If you look at the Red Sox organization before Theo Epstein arrived, the team was full of free swingers and hackers who went up to hit, not get on base. Epstein then brings in Millar, Mueller, Ortiz and Bellhorn, all undervalued players who...guess what...got on base. He rid the team of hackers like Shea Hillenbrand and others who refused to remodel their games and take more pitches and to accept a BB. And he did it all at the token of only a few million dollars. Including David Ortiz who was signed for $1,000,000.

 

Now we see a total change in philosophy all of a sudden and the Sox went spend happy with huge, long contracts. Something Theo Epstein was against since Day 1. He stated many times that he didn't like anything more than a 3 year contract and hated giving out any type of a no trade clause. However what do we see given to Lugo and Drew? The exact opposite of what Epstein wants.

 

Last off season was a pure Epstein offseason. Despite his undervaluing of a sputtering Hanley Ramirez, who hadn't done what was expected of him in AA (and we all know how he turned out for his MLB squad) and Anibal the Animal Sanchez for then a premiere SP in Josh Beckett whom was only 26 years old, and had beaten the dreaded Yankees in October before. And the trade of Andy Marte for Coco Crisp. That was a total Epstein offseason. (Including the dumb idea of trading Mirabelli, who even while aging, was more valuable for Wakefield).

 

This offseason wasn't an Epstein offseason. And that's what is pissing me off.

 

To Larry Lucchino. **** you.

 

Love Plump.

 

 

What else do you want? Theo upgraded the 2 positions that the Sox were weak at, and added a number 1 starter in his prime with the cost way below market value. Would you be happy with Larry and Theo if they would have landed Sorano, Zito, and Schmitt along with the pickups they made? Last I checked, the Bo-Sox did not need to worry about payroll and long term contracts. As long as the front office main focus is about winning, and not just the bottom line. Boston will be a blank check every off season to upgrade and fill-in holes just like the Yankees.

[Plumpamania]

What else do you want? Theo upgraded the 2 positions that the Sox were weak at' date=' and added a number 1 starter in his prime with the cost way below market value. Would you be happy with Larry and Theo if they would have landed Sorano, Zito, and Schmitt along with the pickups they made? Last I checked, the Bo-Sox did not need to worry about payroll and long term contracts. As long as the front office main focus is about winning, and not just the bottom line. Boston will be a blank check every off season to upgrade and fill-in holes just like the Yankees.[/quote']

 

 

All I'm saying is that there were smarter moves than give JULIO f***IN LUGO, someone who never had an .800 OPS $30+ million.

 

And while after watching Matsuzaka, I think he's the real deal. But to call him an Ace SP before any real MLB game has been played, I don't think so. Also something to think about as well for the 6 year contract, is Asian pitchers always do better their first full year in MLB, and decline after that.

[castigs850]

so the ENTIRE offseason was a complete disgrace just because of Lugo, the deal is so bad that it offsets everthing else they have done?

[Plumpamania]

so the ENTIRE offseason was a complete disgrace just because of Lugo' date=' the deal is so bad that it offsets everthing else they have done?[/quote']

 

Drew I liked even with the injury history, but he's the exact opposite kind of player that Trot Nixon was in terms of desire and the way they play. Matsuzaka has proven nothing since we have yet to see him in a MLB regular season game. I'm saying that I don't think we upgraded enough this offseason and didn't spend our money wisely.

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

All I'm saying is that there were smarter moves than give JULIO f***IN LUGO, someone who never had an .800 OPS $30+ million.

 

And while after watching Matsuzaka, I think he's the real deal. But to call him an Ace SP before any real MLB game has been played, I don't think so. Also something to think about as well for the 6 year contract, is Asian pitchers always do better their first full year in MLB, and decline after that.

 

 

Who would you sign for $30 million? If Gary Matthews Jr. is worth 10 million a year for 5 years, who can you get to play SS for $30? Shortstop needed an upgrade, and the Sox upgraded.

 

Your assessment on Dice-K is not fair. There are no standards to measure the guy because all Japanese players need 10 years of service before being granted FA, or they can be posted by their Japanese clubs.(you can thank Nomo for this one) Most pitchers coming from Japan will be in their late 20s to early 30s after 8-10 years of service and having been worked into the ground with high pitch counts. Dice-K is special, he was a pro at 18, and he mows down batters because of his command. Not because he is blowing away Japanese hitters with a straight 100mph fastball. His command translated at every level he pitched on, and the sick part is he is still getting better. Ohh, and him having a rubber arm helps too.

 

His contract is a very good deal. If Mench is worth 11 million a year for over 5 years then Dice-K is a steal at 6 years 52 million. The posting fee paid by Boston will be easily recouped with the revenue generated with his signing.

[Plumpamania]

Who's Mench first off all. The last I checked: Mench, Kevin OF Milwaukee, was never getting paid 11 million a year over 5 years.

 

Second, Matsuzaka doesn't throw 100 MPH. That's a stupid statement.

 

Thirdly, sure the rubber arm helps, but we could say it's a bad thing that he has that many miles on his arm at such a young age.

 

Now your Matthews point. You're going off a horrible move (much worse than anything Lucchino has induced this offseason), to make this horrible move sound good/right? That's 2 wrongs, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

And how is my assessment really unfair? Has he ever thrown one pitch in a MLB game that we can judge him off of? Or can we go by his dominance of Japanese hitters (in which the two best ones in recent history already play in MLB for almost if not all of his career in the Japanese Leagues) and the MLB lackies that play in Japan? Not to mention that the Japanese Leagues strike zone is considerably bigger than the MLB strike zone. Now I don't think Matsuzaka was a bad move. But we can't call him an ace by any means until he does something during the MLB regular season.

 

I don't see the blind faith some of you guys have in the moves made this offseason. Never once did I say that upgrading offensively was a bad thing. Never. What I did said is that $30 million for a SS who's career OPS high was .786 (again never had an OPS of .800 or higher). Not properly addressing the Closer role properly is another reason I'm disappointed. This offseason was a pure Lucchino march, not the Epstein Show.

 

If you can prove me statistically wrong that Lugo is a good signing do it. But I doubt you can.

[ORS]

I think the Lugo signing reaction is a bit overboard. I'm not sure how much weight you can put into his LA time because of a couple of factors. One, it's a new league with unfamilar pitchers. Two, he didn't get consistent playing time.

 

I also think it's pretty safe to say that had he remained in the familiar AL East he would have easily swatted out a .800+ OPS. He was at .870+ when he got traded. That doesn't mean I think he'll repeat that level, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect ~.800, and that's miles better than what we got out of SS the last two years.

 

On top of all that, his contract isn't even that bad. The guy over at SoSH who worked (works?) for the Sox, Eric Van, as a statistical analyst runs a $$/VORP WIN thread every year, and Lugo beat the market significantly, if I recall correctly. He's getting what he's getting because the market went crazy this year.

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

Who's Mench first off all. The last I checked: Mench, Kevin OF Milwaukee, was never getting paid 11 million a year over 5 years.

 

Second, Matsuzaka doesn't throw 100 MPH. That's a stupid statement.

 

Thirdly, sure the rubber arm helps, but we could say it's a bad thing that he has that many miles on his arm at such a young age.

 

Now your Matthews point. You're going off a horrible move (much worse than anything Lucchino has induced this offseason), to make this horrible move sound good/right? That's 2 wrongs, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

And how is my assessment really unfair? Has he ever thrown one pitch in a MLB game that we can judge him off of? Or can we go by his dominance of Japanese hitters (in which the two best ones in recent history already play in MLB for almost if not all of his career in the Japanese Leagues) and the MLB lackies that play in Japan? Not to mention that the Japanese Leagues strike zone is considerably bigger than the MLB strike zone. Now I don't think Matsuzaka was a bad move. But we can't call him an ace by any means until he does something during the MLB regular season.

 

I don't see the blind faith some of you guys have in the moves made this offseason. Never once did I say that upgrading offensively was a bad thing. Never. What I did said is that $30 million for a SS who's career OPS high was .786 (again never had an OPS of .800 or higher). Not properly addressing the Closer role properly is another reason I'm disappointed. This offseason was a pure Lucchino march, not the Epstein Show.

 

If you can prove me statistically wrong that Lugo is a good signing do it. But I doubt you can.

 

Opps, I ment Gil Meche of KC.

 

Irabu threw 100mph in Japan, and we all know how well he did here.

 

The Matthew deal was bad, but it was because of deals like that that drove up the price for players like Lugo.

 

Hmm, people looked at Labron James' game while he was in highschool and thought his game will lead him to being a superstar in the NBA. Dice-K pitching in a League that is closer to the Majors then highschool basketball is to the NBA. Just because you have not seen it doesn't make it a reach.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think everyone will agree that Lugo and Drew arent the ideal candidates for what the sox wanted. But they were the best available.

 

If you want to harp on the FO, harp on the fact that they are putting a 26 yr old once in a long time talent in harm's way. Harp on the fact that they have no solid contiingency plan in their pitching staff. They didnt shore up the bullpen to allow Paps to stay in the rotation and they didnt get another reliable starter in the event Papelbon had to go back to the pen.

[Cocos Disciples]

The market is unbelievably bloated. Anyways, Gary Matthews Jr, Gil Meche and other friends got paid more than Julio Lugo. I'd say Lugo is better than both of them. This offseason, the Red Sox really improved. Last year they were a mediocre team, this year they look A LOT better. If that isn't a good job, what is?

[jacksonianmarch]

they are still a flawed team. But so is every team. I think too many people are stacking teams up to the 2004 level and to their surprise, this team is lacking in comparison. If everything goes right, this team is dynamite. In reality, this will be a good team with the potential to be very good.

[BoSox21]

the best any team can do is to load up as best they can for the season and then see how things go. and depending on how things go, you do what you can to fix the cracks that inevitably show up over the course of a 162-game marathon

 

id say the Sox fared damn well in the off-season. they spent the money the market required them to spend and addressed their weaknesses

[a700hitter]

First off' date=' I know the market was horrible. I understand that. I understand they want to put a winning combination around an aging Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Curt Schilling.[/quote']So, aging is now 31. He probably only has another 6 or 7 good years left.

 

J.D. Drew is a fantastic player if he goes back to his Atlanta form' date=' and he's still in the prime of his career, and I think that will only help his numbers. But he's a *****. Plain and simple.[/color']

This move was made by Theo, who tried to get him after 2004, and he was forced to make a move to make up for the blunder of letting Damon walk.

 

We had a good farm system that needed some work. This offseason was a clear example that Theo Epstein wasn't given what he was promised' date=' and that is full control of baseball operations. This offseason reeks of Larry Lucchino and his brass. They took what Epstein learned from Billy Beane and his studies of Bill James and the others, and Larry just looked at matured players that had the values that Epstein brought to the Red Sox organization.[/quote']There is no one in the farm system that will make an impact for the next 2 or 3 years, and we don't have many of those. Was the FO supposed to settle for 3rd place finishes and more lackluster seasons like 2006 until they are ready?

[Plumpamania]

[/color]So' date=' aging is now 31. He probably only has another 6 or 7 good years left. [/quote']

 

With his body type, please see: Vaughn, Mo: Fielder, Cecil.

 

This move was made by Theo, who tried to get him after 2004, and he was forced to make a move to make up for the blunder of letting Damon walk.

 

I don't believe in making up moves, but the Drew deal is the one of the two (Lugo the other) that I can live with.

 

There is no one in the farm system that will make an impact for the next 2 or 3 years, and we don't have many of those. Was the FO supposed to settle for 3rd place finishes and more lackluster seasons like 2006 until they are ready?

 

Not saying that. But you can't count Papelbon as part of that farm system anymore. The only two guys we have, if you want to count Lester as a prospect still, is him, and Ellsbury. (I don't count Pedroia/Papelbon and Lester as parts of the farm still). We have some good youth, but if you want to compare to Phil Franchise, Humberto Sanchez and some of the other arms over on the other side, we don't compare in that respect. The Yankee have the best pitching prospects (depth, and the best in Hughes) in baseball.

 

All I'm saying is that we didn't address the biggest issue, which was our pitching staff, properly. And I hate Julio Lugo.

[a700hitter]

With his body type' date=' please see: Vaughn, Mo: Fielder, Cecil.[/color']

I don't agree at all with this comparison. Ortiz makes an effort at staying in shape. Those other guys were bags of s***. If you haven't noticed, he moves remarkably well for a big man.

[jacksonianmarch]

the weight will still be a factor on his knees. But he isnt as huge as Mo was. And the guy doesnt see the field until interleague. His s***** fielding will actually cause his career to last longer. If he was a good fielder, he'd have a lot more wear and tear on him trying to play the field.

[Plumpamania]

I don't agree at all with this comparison. Ortiz makes an effort at staying in shape. Those other guys were bags of s***. If you haven't noticed' date=' he moves remarkably well for a big man.[/quote']

 

I agree, for a big man he's got some moves. But he's still well overweight. I mean I'd love for him to be strong til age 37, when his contract is over. But I don't see him keeping up his pace like Ramirez is. When Ortiz does fall, it will be quick. And I hope to God I'm wrong.

[ksushi]

You didn't really make an arguement in that first post there. You hate the signings, but you like Drew and Lugo? What free-swinging hackers did they bring in?

 

How can you not like the tenacity of our FO going out and getting it done on Matsuzaka? In my opinion our FO has been doing some ballsy stuff, putting Papelbon in the 'pen is huge. Once Lester is ready, that move is gonna look big because our rotation is just as deep with Lester as with Papelbon.

[a700hitter]

Lester is going to have to develop better command if he is going to hold down a rotation spot. He can't be put on equal footing with Papelbon. Papelbon attacks the strike zone. Lester does not. If we put a 4 - 5 inning pitcher out there every 5 th day, the bullpen will be exposed, and Papelbon will get overworked. They need to find a legit #5, and not run out one idiot after another to the mound every fifth day like they did last year.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

He can't be put on equal footing with Papelbon. Papelbon attacks the strike zone. Lester does not.

 

You're right. Lester would get murdered if he attatcked the zone like Paps does...he doesn't even remotely have the stuff that Papelbon has. I like Lester a lot, I really do...but he has a LOT of work to do before I'm fully confident in him. He has LOADS of command work to do in addition to command while changing speeds and what not so he can be more of a finesse pitcher. He doesn't have the junk to buckle people (not that I've seen, anyways) or the velocity to blow it past people...I see him as the Jamie Moyer type eventually. I don't think he'll ever be dominant, but he'll win games by keeping you in them.