Disappointed in the Front Office

[ksushi]

That was about the worst assessment ive ever heard of Lester. Its 2:44 AM, and I don't wanna get heavy into this. But loads of command work? Not good stuff? Doesn't have the junk to buckle knees, eh? So a 93 mph fastball followed by a 69 mph slow curve thats absolutely dirty isn't knee buckling? I think even 700 would have to admit he has nasty stuff. His walk rate was a little out of control, but christ have you watched him pitch? Jamie Moyer throws 81 mph, Lester throws better than 91 each FB. Don't joke around.

 

He might never be dominant, but he will be well above average. Dominant would be 20+ and sub 3. I think Lester is more than capable of 15+ and mid-3.

 

The control was off in the majors, but hes been shaky like that at the beginning after a call up at every level for some reason, so there is a lot of reason to hold out hope that he'll be very good.

[Mr Crunchy]

lester did an awful lot of tap dancing last year before he went down

too much

i loved his poise but he is far from a certainty this season

[a700hitter]

That was about the worst assessment ive ever heard of Lester. Its 2:44 AM' date=' and I don't wanna get heavy into this. But loads of command work? Not good stuff? Doesn't have the junk to buckle knees, eh? So a 93 mph fastball followed by a 69 mph slow curve thats absolutely dirty isn't knee buckling? I think even 700 would have to admit he has nasty stuff. His walk rate was a little out of control, but christ have you watched him pitch? Jamie Moyer throws 81 mph, Lester throws better than 91 each FB. Don't joke around. [/quote']He throws much harder than Moyer, but I don't know if I would term his stuff as nasty at the ML level. He's got good stuff for a young lefty.

 

The control was off in the majors' date=' but hes been shaky like that at the beginning after a call up at every level for some reason, so there is a lot of reason to hold out hope that he'll be very good.[/quote']I agree that the team and fans can be hopeful about him, but I don't think the team can rely on its hopes and not find an alternative to fill the 5th slot for this year.

[Mr Crunchy]

s***

if he didnt have as much success as he did we wouldve been out of the race a lot sooner

he won

he impressed me with his gamesmanship but he didnt look like the next steve carlton

[jacksonianmarch]

Lester's career MiLB BB/9IP is 3.8. His BB/9IP last yr in the majors was 4.76. He has a serious history of allowing the free pass. Guys with solid sinkers or guys with power stuff can afford to allow baserunners to a degree because they can either roll the double play or get the needed K. Lester has the makings of power stuff, but last yr he certainly showed he wasnt close to ready. His command was not there. The heat was not there. The curve was erratic. And THEN he had chemo and lost some body weight and strength. Top that off with stuff that isnt necessarily swing and miss stuff and you have a kid with the upside of a #5 THIS YR and a guy who will likely be a middle of the rotation starter at best when he gets his strength together and starts to mature a little.

 

Those who want to overblow what he has in terms of potential are perfectly right in their assessment as it pertains to ceiling. He has the tools to be solid. 90-93 mph fastball. Damn good curve. Average cutter. Not too shabby. But he doesnt locate them well and he gets in trouble when the curve gets very erratic. He will get hit higher than his career MiLB average as most every pitcher does, and if you couple that with a high BB rate, you have the makings of an Eric Bedard- lite.

[BSN07]

This guy plum is a tool...

 

Our team got the best SP available, the best SS available and a guy who if stays healthy will be strides better then Trot... The only thing they botched was getting an adequate closer so that Paps could stay in the rotation. But seems how there wasn't anything wonderful available at the closers position and and Closer ont he market comes witha kings ransom, they didn't do to badly.

 

We can bitch about Paps all we want but if it was really him deciding that he wanted to close then let him go for it.

[jacksonianmarch]

BSN, the point is, the sox mission was in front of them.

 

Improve the rotation. After Wakefield, Schilling and Beckett, 2 arms were needed. They added Matsuzaka. Leaving one hole open. Snyder, Gabbard, Tavarez and the bunch will still be starting a significant number of games. The depth at the SP position is terrible and removing Paps from the rotation only worsens it. Mission incomplete.

 

Improve the bullpen. Added Donnelly, Okajima, Romero, and Pineiro. None seem to be big upgrades, but may help hold the pen together marginally better than last yr. Needed one more big arm out of the pen, and didnt get it. Mission incomplete.

 

Improve the offense. Added Lugo and Drew. Still have pitiful CFer and C but nothing you can do But they got the best that was available. Mission acomplished.

 

They improved, but the sox still have some issues. Some people dont like parts of the team falling together in season and some people want to have a bulletproof team on paper come opening day. Doesnt always happen. The sox had a good offseason, but may be regretting it later on in DL Drew does his sabbatical to the DL or the sox MR/5th starter implodes like it did last yr. Thats why they play the season.

[ORS]

Jacko, I missed the part where Papelbon is neither starting or relieving. Whichever category he falls in gets a complete, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

Paps in the bullpen. Last yr, the middle relief has an era in the low 5's. I thought they needed to bring in a legitimate setup man, and they brought in guys who are either vastly unknown, declining, or coming off terrible yrs. It could complete itself by midseason, no doubt. The potential is there. But anyone can shoot holes at the middle relief right now. Closer role is locked, stocked and loaded. But middle relief is my beef.

[BSN07]

And if we beefed up the middle relief or Long man or set up guy wouldn't be up to your standards LOL No team is bullet proof, but I'll take an above average pitching staff(upgrade from last year even if the only addition is Matsuzaka) an above avg. lineup( not solid 1-9 but 1-5 is better then most teams 6-9 is the question mark, but has enough upside to be palatable) our D took a hit at SS but the Offensive production pretty much counters that, RF Drew should be comparable to Nixon with a vast Offensive improvement, Or BP is avg at best, with the chances of it being comprable or being a major problem, and like you put it, the closer's role is locked and loaded. I'll take all of that over alot of other teams. Like you also said, a team doesn't have to be 100% solid on opening day, you can work on it threw out the season like most teams in any sport have too.

 

When we were having the open try outs for the Closer's role Jacko you stated that having the try out would cost us valuable games at the beginning of the season and the AL East, well our MR maybe in the same shape as it was then we have a lock down guy for the 9th now so I imagine you will stat that our chances of being up there with the Yanks is as good as ever. And don't give me the 5th starter crap either LOL

[TheKilo]

Plump's got a point. I'm as staunch a defender of the FO as there is and I honeslty don't know if they know what they are doing anymore.

 

I don't care...as long as the team is competitive. If the Sox struggle this year, I won't be happy about it.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

That was about the worst assessment ive ever heard of Lester. Its 2:44 AM' date=' and I don't wanna get heavy into this. But loads of command work? Not good stuff? Doesn't have the junk to buckle knees, eh? So a 93 mph fastball followed by a 69 mph slow curve thats absolutely dirty isn't knee buckling? I think even 700 would have to admit he has nasty stuff. His walk rate was a little out of control, but christ have you watched him pitch? Jamie Moyer throws 81 mph, Lester throws better than 91 each FB. Don't joke around. [/quote']

 

I never said he didn't have good stuff...I said he doesn't have the stuff that Paps has. He doesn't. 93...which is giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think...is not the type of fastball that's going to blow guys away anymore. Sure, it's a good FB, but the jump from 93 to 96-97 is HUGE...and those mid to high 90's fastballs are the ones getting blown by guys. From the lines and stats that I've seen, he's been throwing his fastball consistently in the upper 80's, hitting 90 very rarely this spring. Granted, the guy's coming back from freaking cancer, so hopefully, he's not at full-strength yet.

 

My whole point in that previous post was that, IMO, he doesn't have the stuff to get by PURELY on his stuff. He's going to have to work at his command and changing speeds and what not to be a crafty guy. He's got good stuff...I'm not going to argue with that. But TONS of guys have "good stuff"...there's a reason that there are far more guys with "good stuff" than there are "good pitchers". He's got work to do before I'm fully confident in him, that's all I'm saying.

[jacksonianmarch]

And if we beefed up the middle relief or Long man or set up guy wouldn't be up to your standards LOL No team is bullet proof, but I'll take an above average pitching staff(upgrade from last year even if the only addition is Matsuzaka) an above avg. lineup( not solid 1-9 but 1-5 is better then most teams 6-9 is the question mark, but has enough upside to be palatable) our D took a hit at SS but the Offensive production pretty much counters that, RF Drew should be comparable to Nixon with a vast Offensive improvement, Or BP is avg at best, with the chances of it being comprable or being a major problem, and like you put it, the closer's role is locked and loaded. I'll take all of that over alot of other teams. Like you also said, a team doesn't have to be 100% solid on opening day, you can work on it threw out the season like most teams in any sport have too.

 

When we were having the open try outs for the Closer's role Jacko you stated that having the try out would cost us valuable games at the beginning of the season and the AL East, well our MR maybe in the same shape as it was then we have a lock down guy for the 9th now so I imagine you will stat that our chances of being up there with the Yanks is as good as ever. And don't give me the 5th starter crap either LOL

 

this move definitely increases their win total this yr. But at the same time, it opens up the health issues with Paps.

 

But if Paps was even being kicked around in the closers role this yr, they should have gotten another starter.

[Soxfan1]

Matsuzaka was a bad move? Alrighty

It was a bad move. No way in hell any team puts this much money on a unproven pitcher unless their main competition goes after him. If it wasn't blind bidding, or the sox knew the Mets had the second bid, he would be playing in NY.

[riverside sluggers]

It was a bad move. No way in hell any team puts this much money on a unproven pitcher unless their main competition goes after him. If it wasn't blind bidding' date=' or the sox knew the Mets had the second bid, he would be playing in NY.[/quote']

 

Ok if it were up to you what would the 5 man rotation be, with your preference of Matsuzaka not in a Boston uniform

[RobZombie]

He might never be dominant, but he will be well above average. Dominant would be 20+ and sub 3. I think Lester is more than capable of 15+ and mid-3.

 

I like John Lester's chances but lets be realistic here. John Lester has never had any sustained success above AA. Plus he's coming off a serious illness that really tuckers you out for a year or so. He's a good guy to gamble on, but penciling him in to be well above average is a bit much.

 

As far as the original post goes.

 

Did they get good players who are better than the players they replaced?

 

Yes.

 

Did they pay too much and sign Lugo, Drew, and possibly Matsusaka for too long? Maybe.

 

I think an argument can be made that when you have the resources and fan base that the Sox have, you have to overpay to improve your team.

[Soxfan1]

Ok if it were up to you what would the 5 man rotation be' date=' with your preference of Matsuzaka not in a Boston uniform[/quote']

(No Order)

 

Schilling

Beckett

Wakefield

Papelbon

Lester/Use Matz money to get a starter for 1-2 years till Lester is back to Normal.

Also dish out for someone like Gagne or trade for Cordero.

[ORS]

Soxfan, how about a name for that someone that is keeping Lester's spot warm? In the little bit I've seen in ST, Matsuzaka has better stuff and control than anyone who was available in the FA market. I have a feeling they've been scouting this guy for a long time and knew this about him well before any of us ever heard of him (and I remember hearing about him in '04). They bid so high because they didn't want to risk losing him, not because they didn't want him in NY.

[dicek1220]

I am extremely disappointed in our front office as of today. I wasn't that happy during the offseason either, but after looking at all the moves made, I'm extremely unhappy.

 

First off, I know the market was horrible. I understand that. I understand they want to put a winning combination around an aging Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Curt Schilling.

 

But the contracts handed out where horrific. Julio Lugo, I defended because of the market and of the position he plays. But he isn't worth anywhere near his paygrade. J.D. Drew is a fantastic player if he goes back to his Atlanta form, and he's still in the prime of his career, and I think that will only help his numbers. But he's a *****. Plain and simple.

 

We had a good farm system that needed some work. This offseason was a clear example that Theo Epstein wasn't given what he was promised, and that is full control of baseball operations. This offseason reeks of Larry Lucchino and his brass. They took what Epstein learned from Billy Beane and his studies of Bill James and the others, and Larry just looked at matured players that had the values that Epstein brought to the Red Sox organization.

 

If you look at the Red Sox organization before Theo Epstein arrived, the team was full of free swingers and hackers who went up to hit, not get on base. Epstein then brings in Millar, Mueller, Ortiz and Bellhorn, all undervalued players who...guess what...got on base. He rid the team of hackers like Shea Hillenbrand and others who refused to remodel their games and take more pitches and to accept a BB. And he did it all at the token of only a few million dollars. Including David Ortiz who was signed for $1,000,000.

 

Now we see a total change in philosophy all of a sudden and the Sox went spend happy with huge, long contracts. Something Theo Epstein was against since Day 1. He stated many times that he didn't like anything more than a 3 year contract and hated giving out any type of a no trade clause. However what do we see given to Lugo and Drew? The exact opposite of what Epstein wants.

 

Last off season was a pure Epstein offseason. Despite his undervaluing of a sputtering Hanley Ramirez, who hadn't done what was expected of him in AA (and we all know how he turned out for his MLB squad) and Anibal the Animal Sanchez for then a premiere SP in Josh Beckett whom was only 26 years old, and had beaten the dreaded Yankees in October before. And the trade of Andy Marte for Coco Crisp. That was a total Epstein offseason. (Including the dumb idea of trading Mirabelli, who even while aging, was more valuable for Wakefield).

 

This offseason wasn't an Epstein offseason. And that's what is pissing me off.

 

To Larry Lucchino. **** you.

 

Love Plump.

 

I disagree with most everything you said. You said that last season was a "Theo"-like offseason. That was the offseason which the sox traded Andy Marte (who we acquired from Atlanta for Renteria) for Coco Crisp. I know Crisp had injuries, but Renteria had a tremendous year. We got Crisp because we let Johnny Damon go, who had a career year in New York. Either way, the Sox came out on the losing end in both trading for Coco and letting Damon go.

 

The Sox also that season traded Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. A year later, Ramirez is one of the top shortstops in the NL and is expected to keep growing. Sanchez threw a no hitter and looks like a potential top of the rotation starter. The sox on the other hand, got a 5+ era from Beckett and a good year from Mike Lowell.

 

In addition, the Sox resigned catcher Jason Varitek and put a no trade close into his contract.

 

So the offseason in which the Red Sox trade away their top prospect, acquire a guy in Crisp who is not great at getting on base, and sign an aging catcher to a 4 year deal with no trade clauses is an EPSTEIN-like offseason??? It's actually the complete opposite. And that might have something to do with the fact that HE WASN'T EVEN THE GM LAST OFFSEASON. And in the end, these moves lead the sox to finish in 3rd place in the AL East last season.

 

Now what you're saying is that this offseason the Red Sox swayed away from Theo's original strategies as a GM. Ok, let's see, since Theo has come back as GM:

 

To start off, the Red Sox have, according to experts, one of the best draft in the majors.

 

Then they sign a guy in JD Drew who, if there is one thing he always does, is get on base. Next they sign Lugo, a guy Theo has always been high on, who is another guy who can get on base and also bat leadoff.

 

Next they sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, a 26 Japanese phenom, to a 6 year deal in which Matsuzaka gets paid 8 mil. a year (3 mil. less per year than Gil Meche).

 

They then make a number of bullpen moves, acquiring guys like Piniero, Okijima, and Donnelly.

 

So far, it looks like since that "Theo-like" offseason, the Red Sox have been making far more "Theo-like" moves then they had during the 2005/2006 offseason. Theo, as you said, wants good pitching, guys who get on base, and a strong farm system. Since he's been back, I'd say it's safe to say he's been trying to do that. I agree that the Red Sox overpaid Lugo and Drew and didn't improve the bullpen enough. But to say that this is not a "Theo-like" offseason is retarded.

[Soxfan1]

I disagree with most everything you said. You said that last season was a "Theo"-like offseason. That was the offseason which the sox traded Andy Marte (who we acquired from Atlanta for Renteria) for Coco Crisp. I know Crisp had injuries, but Renteria had a tremendous year. We got Crisp because we let Johnny Damon go, who had a career year in New York. Either way, the Sox came out on the losing end in both trading for Coco and letting Damon go.

 

The Sox also that season traded Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. A year later, Ramirez is one of the top shortstops in the NL and is expected to keep growing. Sanchez threw a no hitter and looks like a potential top of the rotation starter. The sox on the other hand, got a 5+ era from Beckett and a good year from Mike Lowell.

 

In addition, the Sox resigned catcher Jason Varitek and put a no trade close into his contract.

 

So the offseason in which the Red Sox trade away their top prospect, acquire a guy in Crisp who is not great at getting on base, and sign an aging catcher to a 4 year deal with no trade clauses is an EPSTEIN-like offseason??? It's actually the complete opposite. And that might have something to do with the fact that HE WASN'T EVEN THE GM LAST OFFSEASON. And in the end, these moves lead the sox to finish in 3rd place in the AL East last season.

 

Now what you're saying is that this offseason the Red Sox swayed away from Theo's original strategies as a GM. Ok, let's see, since Theo has come back as GM:

 

To start off, the Red Sox have, according to experts, one of the best draft in the majors.

 

Then they sign a guy in JD Drew who, if there is one thing he always does, is get on base. Next they sign Lugo, a guy Theo has always been high on, who is another guy who can get on base and also bat leadoff.

 

Next they sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, a 26 Japanese phenom, to a 6 year deal in which Matsuzaka gets paid 8 mil. a year (3 mil. less per year than Gil Meche).

 

They then make a number of bullpen moves, acquiring guys like Piniero, Okijima, and Donnelly.

 

So far, it looks like since that "Theo-like" offseason, the Red Sox have been making far more "Theo-like" moves then they had during the 2005/2006 offseason. Theo, as you said, wants good pitching, guys who get on base, and a strong farm system. Since he's been back, I'd say it's safe to say he's been trying to do that. I agree that the Red Sox overpaid Lugo and Drew and didn't improve the bullpen enough. But to say that this is not a "Theo-like" offseason is retarded.

Nice intro post.

 

I'm leaving. I'll answer sometime tomorow.

[Mr Crunchy]

from a competetive stand point matsusaka was proclaimed the best pitcher in the market this offseason

how these scouts can decide on this is beyond me but he was considered by the baseball people as the man to get.

 

sure

i had serious doubts as does anyone who remembers cy checo and irabu etc

i loved schmidt in san fran and i coveted a lefty stud like zito since we lost bruce hurst

that said

financially speaking the team cannot lose

they will pimp this guy out world wide and will market his ass as if he were jesus christ himself

there are 19?? different people involved in the sox ownership group i believe

i would think they explored the gains vs. costs before they dropped 100M on him

 

now the 5

i am perplexed as to how they build a 200M team without considering the closers role

big hole and in a big spot,this isnt the 5th outfielder we're discussing

 

it is what it is and as it stands im glad paps gets the ball

hes proven and hes tuffer than a 2.00 steak

we lose 100 innings in the process of moving him back

those innings are being turned over to the unreliables like gabbard snyder etc but i say give the ball to the jules

tavares pitched like cy young last september when we were done plus hes got that all american face that will be as marketable and desired as jeters face

 

if we can get 150ip out of this spot with a 5.00 era i dare say we're in great shape to win the division considering we got schill kato becks and a 175-200ip in wakefield to round out the rotation and hopefully a healthy healed and rested jon lester coming back around the break if not sooner

 

theres uncertainty for sure but i think our best team has paps closing out

 

if we go thru the circle jerk of the 4-5 spots as we did last year this season is toast

[jacksonianmarch]

I disagree with most everything you said. You said that last season was a "Theo"-like offseason. That was the offseason which the sox traded Andy Marte (who we acquired from Atlanta for Renteria) for Coco Crisp. I know Crisp had injuries, but Renteria had a tremendous year. We got Crisp because we let Johnny Damon go, who had a career year in New York. Either way, the Sox came out on the losing end in both trading for Coco and letting Damon go.

 

The Sox also that season traded Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. A year later, Ramirez is one of the top shortstops in the NL and is expected to keep growing. Sanchez threw a no hitter and looks like a potential top of the rotation starter. The sox on the other hand, got a 5+ era from Beckett and a good year from Mike Lowell.

 

In addition, the Sox resigned catcher Jason Varitek and put a no trade close into his contract.

 

So the offseason in which the Red Sox trade away their top prospect, acquire a guy in Crisp who is not great at getting on base, and sign an aging catcher to a 4 year deal with no trade clauses is an EPSTEIN-like offseason??? It's actually the complete opposite. And that might have something to do with the fact that HE WASN'T EVEN THE GM LAST OFFSEASON. And in the end, these moves lead the sox to finish in 3rd place in the AL East last season.

 

Now what you're saying is that this offseason the Red Sox swayed away from Theo's original strategies as a GM. Ok, let's see, since Theo has come back as GM:

 

To start off, the Red Sox have, according to experts, one of the best draft in the majors.

 

Then they sign a guy in JD Drew who, if there is one thing he always does, is get on base. Next they sign Lugo, a guy Theo has always been high on, who is another guy who can get on base and also bat leadoff.

 

Next they sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, a 26 Japanese phenom, to a 6 year deal in which Matsuzaka gets paid 8 mil. a year (3 mil. less per year than Gil Meche).

 

They then make a number of bullpen moves, acquiring guys like Piniero, Okijima, and Donnelly.

 

So far, it looks like since that "Theo-like" offseason, the Red Sox have been making far more "Theo-like" moves then they had during the 2005/2006 offseason. Theo, as you said, wants good pitching, guys who get on base, and a strong farm system. Since he's been back, I'd say it's safe to say he's been trying to do that. I agree that the Red Sox overpaid Lugo and Drew and didn't improve the bullpen enough. But to say that this is not a "Theo-like" offseason is retarded.

 

 

correction: If there is one thing JD Drew does, it is suck up a paycheck while being in the trainer's office.

[Mr Crunchy]

i spent the lat 90 days shittin on drew

i am now prepared to adore his ass

[jacksonianmarch]

i spent the lat 90 days shittin on drew

i am now prepared to adore his ass

 

you goin gay crunch?

[Mr Crunchy]

if he hits 30 100 .300??

im prepared to do the right thing for the team mj

[a700hitter]

if he hits 30 100 .300??

im prepared to do the right thing for the team mj

You are a hardcore fan Crunchy.:thumbsup:

[jacksonianmarch]

haha.

 

I would think JD would be right around .270-.280 but the homers will drop with death valley in RF. The most important number will be 140. If he plays 140 games, he will be a solid acquisition.

[a700hitter]

haha.

 

I would think JD would be right around .270-.280 but the homers will drop with death valley in RF. The most important number will be 140. If he plays 140 games, he will be a solid acquisition.

I am starting to think that Drew will be on the field more than Crisp, who always seems to be banged up.

[Mr Crunchy]

crisp was on the rise till he f***ed his finger up

how that plays on his head will be huge

 

luca

im bad,real bad when it comes to this f***ing team

 

outside of the few superstars i never would overspend for an outfielder

drew could make theo look silly or very very bright

[jacksonianmarch]

If Drew plays more games than Coco this yr, then Theo should look for new employment.