Papelbon is the closer according ESPN

[CrespoBlows]

some guys cannot handle it. See: Arthur Rhodes.

 

That's not fair. Rhodes finally got the ball when he was 34 years old.

 

In order to fully determine is ability to be a closer, we needed to see him in his prime.

[CrespoBlows]

After about 10 minutes of thought on the subject, my reaction is that this team (in my eyes) went from playoff contender to WS contender. Look, it was only a matter of time before Pap went back to the pen if the team didn't have a closer by mid season. My call was the All-Star break, but hey, even better he start the year there.

 

By ALL accounts, Pap's shoulder is in the best shape strengthwise it's ever been. So why not? He's not against this move and he's only making 400k/year. If he really thought he might be injured by this move do you think he'd risk the millions he's bound to get in the future as a starter? He may be a hick, but he's not stupid.

 

I think Lester is on the A Train to the Majors in a couple of months so Snyder (not Tavarez) should get the call to hold down the 5 spot until then. Good move because it was going to happen anyway.

 

What did you think Papelbon was going to do as a starter this year?

[RedSoxRooter]

What did you think Papelbon was going to do as a starter this year?

 

Actually, I thought he'd be dominant for 5 innings a game then be gassed by the 6th. The man was not going to throw 200 innings if you saw the way he's pitched so far in spring training. He was pitching like a closer in all of his innings. I was actually more worried about his arm being blown out as a starter to be honest.

 

He only knows one speed and that is full throttle. He couldn't possibly keep that up for 200 innings. Papelbon may be 'too fuking intense' to be a starter right now. A little age may help with that though.

 

And remember, this move may not be forever. Should the Sox find a decent closer next year then Pap may still get his shot at the rotation and be only 27.

[CrespoBlows]

Actually, I thought he'd be dominant for 5 innings a game then be gassed by the 6th. The man was not going to throw 200 innings if you saw the way he's pitched so far in spring training. He was pitching like a closer in all of his innings. I was actually more worried about his arm being blown out as a starter to be honest.

 

He only knows one speed and that is full throttle. He couldn't possibly keep that up for 200 innings. Papelbon may be 'too fuking intense' to be a starter right now. A little age may help with that though.

 

And remember, this move may not be forever. Should the Sox find a decent closer next year then Pap may still get his shot at the rotation and be only 27.

 

:lol:

 

The greatest point ever made in Talksox history.

[a700hitter]

I don't think it is a panic move. Clearly, the kid wanted to resume the role. It was going to be hard for him to recapture the magic, the aura, the sheer intimidation that he brought to the mound in the 9th inning. He knew that and he relished the adrenaline rush. Let's face it. He a one of a kind closer-- a Mo Rivera, Joe Nathan-type closer. Look for Clemens to be in the rotation by mid-season.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't think it is a panic move. Clearly' date=' the kid wanted to resume the role. It was going to be hard for him to recapture the magic, the aura, the sheer intimidation that he brought to the mound in the 9th inning. He knew that and he relished the adrenaline rush. [/quote']

 

Papelbon has the desire to succeed anywhere he pitches. It's the reason he was so good during his minor league career, and why he showed flashes of being an ace in 2005. You really believe he was going to lose desire to pitch, just because it was the fifth inning? C'mon, you can do better than that.

 

Look for Clemens to be in the rotation by mid-season.

 

He won't be anywhere else other than Houston in 2007.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon has the desire to succeed anywhere he pitches. It's the reason he was so good during his minor league career' date=' and why he showed flashes of being an ace in 2005. You really believe he was going to lose desire to pitch, just because it was the fifth inning? C'mon, you can do better than that.[/quote']I never said that he would lose his desire to pitch. He's said it previously in interviews that he would miss the adrenaline of closing. So, I don't know what point you are making or trying to disprove. He said this just today:

"This is something I want to do for the rest of my career," he said. "It has nothing to do with Timlin's health or us not having a closer or my shoulder. I broke into the league as a closer. They drafted me as a closer. In college, I learned to pitch in the bullpen. It's where my heart is."

 

 

 

He won't be anywhere else other than Houston in 2007.

If you want to join in the action with Jackson, you can be my bitch along with Jackson if he comes to Boston.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Alright alright...

 

So I freaked out when I first heard this move when it was delivered by my future wife Erin Andrews during the Sox/Phils game today. After giving it some serious serious thought...I've decided that, assuming it's not a panic move health-wise, I really like the idea. I feel far more confident about 9th innings now...actually, I shouldn't even say more confident, because that indicates that I had SOME confidence previously, which I most certainly did not.

 

Am I scared to death as to what kind of bed-s***ing JT is going to do every fifth day? Yea, kind of. But at the same rate, I'm really excited about what this offense can do, and don't think the Sox will have to worry about winning many 2-1 or 1-0 games. These guys will put runs on the board, making it unneccessary for JT to be nasty on an everyday basis...or s***...even an any day basis. If he's halfway competent, he'll win his fair share of games. And he's only a stopgap, IMO, until Lester is ready or Clemens comes around, probably the former.

 

I also find myself questioning sometimes how effective a starter Paps would have been. I was excited about seeing what he could put together...but I had my reservations. Closers can get by on 2 pitches...starters can't. Before you all freak out on me, realize that I know Paps has a curveball and a change also, but when you think of what he threw last year, those aren't what you think about. You think about the heat and the split...his two elite pitches. I'm more comfortable having him stick to those and mow guys down in the ninth than have him throw average hooks during 7 innings of work. They're effective occasionally out of the pen because guys don't see them a lot. If you're facing Paps 3 and 4 times in a game, you're going to get more comfortable on them and hit them a quarter mile.

 

I love Papelbon...I really really do. I'm giving the FO the benefit of the doubt and say they looked into the best interest of his shoulder and were given the all-clear by the doctors. That said, the only reservations I have is that we've never seen Papelbon close in the post-season. I really hope he can cut the mustard on the biggest stage in the game. And I'll tell you what, I can't wait to see him try. And I really think this team can give us all the opportunity to see that.

[CrespoBlows]

I never said that he would lose his desire to pitch. He's said it previously in interviews that he would miss the adrenaline of closing. So' date=' I don't know what point you are making or trying to disprove. He said this just today:[/quote']

 

If Papelbon were to continue to be a starter, he'd be singing a different tune. I mean, he wouldn't create media friendly stories, would he. Oh, wait....

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/03/03/papelbon_happy_to_join_red_sox_rotation/

 

 

If you want to join in the action with Jackson, you can be my bitch along with Jackson if he comes to Boston.

 

Why would Clemens ruin his legacy in Houston, to come to Boston? Because it......? Makes a good media story?

[RedSoxRooter]

Why would Clemens ruin his legacy in Houston' date=' to come to Boston? Because it......? Makes a good media story?[/quote']

 

Because it makes him a lot of money.

[a700hitter]

If Papelbon were to continue to be a starter, he'd be singing a different tune. I mean, he wouldn't create media friendly stories, would he. Oh, wait....

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/03/03/papelbon_happy_to_join_red_sox_rotation/

In the article you cite he said the following:

I'll miss the fans wanting me to come in. I'll miss that feel," Papelbon said. "Closing was a tremendous joy for me and I had a great time and I'll miss it, but I've got to turn the page.

Are you trying to say that the kid didn't express his preference to close? What point are you trying to make? If you are going to argue about something with someone, you should have a point you are trying to make. I made a post saying that the kid missed closing. There have been a number statements from him

saying how he liked closing. He told the team he wants to close, and today, he said he wants to close for the rest of his career. You don't believe him?

 

Why would Clemens ruin his legacy in Houston' date=' to come to Boston? Because it......? Makes a good media story?[/quote']He has a legacy in Houston after making 84 of his 691 starts? Don't answer my question with a question. If you are so sure take the bet and be my bitch with jackson when Clemens comes to Boston.

[Gom]

I don't like it. I mean' date=' it's great for this year, but it's going to be tough to start stretching him out to be a starter at age 27 after two straight years of closing. This feels like a shortsighted move.[/quote']

 

You probably still believe that it was primarily because of bullpen concerns that they decided to move a pitcher with looseness in his shoulder from starting and possibly throwing 180+ innings to relief where he will pitch a max of 70 innings.

 

Believe everything you read, lol. It's never anything else.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon was a great closer. There is no guaranty that he'd be a great starter or even a #2 or 3 starter. Wasn't Mo Rivera a starter in the Yanks organization. Once they saw that he was "All World " out of the pen no thought was given to moving him to starting. Great is rare. You don't mess with great.

[jacksonianmarch]

he actually was pretty good as a starter when he was in the minors. He had a short, unsuccessful stint as a starter in 1995, then went to long relief in 1996 and the rest is history.

[Gom]

I never bought the whole "his shoulder will be better on regular rest" ******** that ORS and some others fell for. There is a reason why pitchers when they get older go to the pen, and some with spectacular success [Eckersley]. It's because there is less strain on the arm, and less fatigue overall. I still firmly believe that after the "doctors" sobered up, they realized that an additional 140 IP on an already suspect shoulder would be counterproductive. I wonder why.

 

Even if Timlin was good, Piniero turned his career around, and who ever else you have in the pen was servicable, you still would have seen Paps in the pen.

[Plumpamania]

he actually was pretty good as a starter when he was in the minors. He had a short' date=' unsuccessful stint as a starter in 1995, then went to long relief in 1996 and the rest is history.[/quote']

 

While Paps enjoyed success in the minors as a starter after being converted out of closing in college. Fast tracked it, as a starter to MLB, and pitched well as a starter and in his relief appearances in 2005. Then 2006, well he was the s***.

[Gom]

I don't think it is a panic move. Clearly' date=' the kid wanted to resume the role. It was going to be hard for him to recapture the magic, the aura, the sheer intimidation that he brought to the mound in the 9th inning. He knew that and he relished the adrenaline rush. Let's face it. He a one of a kind closer-- a Mo Rivera, Joe Nathan-type closer. Look for Clemens to be in the rotation by mid-season.[/quote']

 

Houston, New York, or Boston's?

 

I say that it is pretty much a toss-up with Houston and New York, with Boston pulling up the rear.

 

Boston is a great story and all, but my belief, and from watching him in the announcer's booth during a Yankee spring training game, is that he values the friendships more than the history part [not really a stretch, he pretty much came out and said so]. He has the most friends in Houston, his best friend in NY, who have followed each other before, and not much else in Boston, except that it gives him a chance to go full circle, but he doesn't know anyone there.

 

As much as I would love to see him in NY, I think he ends up in Houston. The only way he doesn't is if Houston is 10 games out in May.

[a700hitter]

he actually was pretty good as a starter when he was in the minors. He had a short' date=' unsuccessful stint as a starter in 1995, then went to long relief in 1996 and the rest is history.[/quote']Pretty good in the minors does not equate to great in the majors.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree. Over time, I think he would have been a pretty good starter, but I am glad he is our closer.

[a700hitter]

Boston is a great story and all' date=' but my belief, and from watching him in the announcer's booth during a Yankee spring training game, is that he values the friendships more than the history part [not really a stretch, he pretty much came out and said so']. He has the most friends in Houston, his best friend in NY, who have followed each other before, and not much else in Boston, except that it gives him a chance to go full circle, but he doesn't know anyone there.

I just went through this with your Yankee fan compatriot jacksonianmarch. He was criticizing Red Sox fans for thinking he would come to Boston out of sentimentality or a storybook ending, I agreed with him that Clemens will go where the financial opportunities are the greatest. Please don't tell me that you believe that friendship stuff. When he was in Houston he made a ton of money. He was the highest paid pitcher in 2005 and per game in 2006 he was the best paid. He also got a 10 - year post playing days deal from Houston. He didn't go their because Pettitte is his lover. Jackson, do you want to chime in here?

[example1]

Papelbon was a great closer. There is no guaranty that he'd be a great starter or even a #2 or 3 starter. Wasn't Mo Rivera a starter in the Yanks organization. Once they saw that he was "All World " out of the pen no thought was given to moving him to starting. Great is rare. You don't mess with great.

 

I was never really too strong on this one either way. I figured he would be productive from either starter of closer and the rest of the team would dictate where he was needed. If Craig Hansen were lights out then perhaps this wouldn't be happening.

 

I feel quite a bit of resolution watching Papelbon's interview on NESN. He seems to really speak with conviction about wanting to be a closer. Perhaps he went back to starting and missed the nuances of the closer role. Let's not mince words folks: this guy is a killer on the mound. Between Okajima, Donnelly, Romero, Lopez, Pineiro and Tavarez there are quite a few guys I wouldn't hate seeing in the 7th and 8th, knowing that much of the time Papelbon can pitch an extra out in the 8th if needed. He adds a lot of depth to the pen.

[BSN07]

I figured if the Sox where in the chase come late August that he would resume the closers role anyway. If his shoulder is up for it and he really is this enthusiastic about being the closer then let him close. If this is what he wants then so be it I won't hate him for it. Besides like some have stated 5th starters are a dime a dozen maybe even cheaper, dominate closrs don't happen often.

[riverside sluggers]

If Pineiro keeps pitching the way he has recently, he might be pitching his way to be one of the main set up men for Papelbon

[ORS]

Papelbon was a better reliever than he was a closer. As a reliever' date=' he had the second best ERA for a pitcher throwing over 50IP of relief. As a closer, he saved 85% of his SvOpps which is good for 15th in players with over 20 saves.[/quote']

Ok, so Trevor Hoffman is a better closer than Mariano Rivera.

[ORS]

You probably still believe that it was primarily because of bullpen concerns that they decided to move a pitcher with looseness in his shoulder from starting and possibly throwing 180+ innings to relief where he will pitch a max of 70 innings.

 

Believe everything you read, lol. It's never anything else.

It's not believing everything I read. It makes sense if you think about it, but you aren't very good at that. I'll bring up the runner analogy again since it silenced you last time. Stating that it is better for Papelbon's shoulder to close is analogous to stating a gifted runner with a trick hammy should train to be an every-day sprinter instead of a once a week mid-distance runner. Do you counter that notion? I think it perfectly analogous, and equally ridiculous.

 

I know your extensive WebMD.com training will come up with something.

[a700hitter]

It's not believing everything I read. It makes sense if you think about it, but you aren't very good at that. I'll bring up the runner analogy again since it silenced you last time. Stating that it is better for Papelbon's shoulder to close is analogous to stating a gifted runner with a trick hammy should train to be an every-day sprinter instead of a once a week mid-distance runner. Do you counter that notion? I think it perfectly analogous, and equally ridiculous.

 

I know your extensive WebMD.com training will come up with something.

I don't think it is analogous. The hamstring problem is a muscular problem. Short sprints would be more apt to tear the muscle if it is not probably warmed up or if there is cramping due to fatigue or dehydration. The distance runner does not have the violent muscle movement and even if he starts his exercise with cramping, he is more likely to warm up the muscle and feel better during his exercise than to injure himself. The shoulder is a joint with tendons, ligaments and muscle. I would imagine the theory is that working several times a week fatigues he muscles around the joint without adequate opportunity to recover. The fatigued muscles cannot hold the joint together as well as they would like and that can strees the ligaments etc.

 

Edit: That being said, I think it is not a bad move to put him back in the closer's role. We went from having a strong rotation to having a big question mark and 2 forty year olds. The bullpen is now fairly strong, but that could break down from overwork.

[ORS]

I would imagine the theory is that working several times a week fatigues he muscles around the joint without adequate opportunity to recover. The fatigued muscles cannot hold the joint together as well as they would like and that can strees the ligaments etc.

This part is what makes it analogous. The starter, like the distance runner, isn't going full bore and gets adequate rest. The reliever, like the sprinter, is putting more intense strain on the questionable body part and doing it without rest.

 

I don't think you know it, but you just agreed with me.

[a700hitter]

This part is what makes it analogous. The starter, like the distance runner, isn't going full bore and gets adequate rest. The reliever, like the sprinter, is putting more intense strain on the questionable body part and doing it without rest.

 

I don't think you know it, but you just agreed with me.

I guess I did.

[CrespoBlows]

In the article you cite he said the following:Are you trying to say that the kid didn't express his preference to close? What point are you trying to make? If you are going to argue about something with someone, you should have a point you are trying to make. I made a post saying that the kid missed closing. There have been a number statements from him

saying how he liked closing. He told the team he wants to close, and today, he said he wants to close for the rest of his career. You don't believe him?

 

I believe him, but he's guilty of A-Rod like media-friendliness. Two weeks ago, he said he wanted to be a starter for the rest of his life, now he wants to be a closer?

 

On the issue of the closer you said that Chad Cordero would be worth Bowden and Ellsbury, and I absolutely agree. The Red Sox should have kept Papelbon where he was at, and acquired a good closer. I had Papelbon down for a low 3.00 ERA, and possibly 200 K's. Ace pitchers > Shut-down closers. This move is all too typical of a panic move. Giving up those players for Cordero may have been one too, but then we would have both roles filled.

 

He has a legacy in Houston after making 84 of his 691 starts? Don't answer my question with a question. If you are so sure take the bet and be my bitch with jackson when Clemens comes to Boston.

 

I believe Mr. Clemens has a front office job waiting for him as soon as he hangs up his cleets, and you and I both know that, that job is not in Boston or New York.

 

He's a freaking legend in Houston, he's probably as revered as Nolan Ryan. Plus, throw in the fact that he's going to get the same $20 million (pro-rated) that either Boston or New York is going to offer, and his home is 20 miles away from his work. Why would he turn that job down?

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love Roger Clemens to pitch for the Red Sox in 2007. I would s*** myself, but I don't forsee that happening. (Unless Houston completely bombs in the first half of the season)

 

OK, I'm probably guilty of not having a good point on the Papelbon issue, but can you seriously name one good reason why he'd go to Boston OR New York. (That's for Yankee fans)

[jacksonianmarch]

Going to NY is simple. Pettitte is there. If there is a bidding war, we know who will be the highest bidder. And even with Papelbon closing, the yankees have the better bullpen and starting lineup. He will win more games in NY than he would in Boston.

 

But I agree Crespo, if Houston is n the race and offers his the same thing they did last yr, then he stays home. If Houston decides not to be held hostage, it is NY's race to lose. Lets put it that way.

 

Also for NY, it buys time from the media hype on Hughes. Cashman knows Hughes needs half the season in AAA to hone his command and develop the changeup. Cashman also knows, the best thing for his future may be 180IP of AAA ball and starting the yr in the rotation next season. Getting Clemens stems the fan demand and the press pressure on bringing Hughes up. And it fits exactly what Cashman has been trying to do. Give tons of money short term in the name of flexibility.