Red Sox in discussions with Rockies about Helton

[Cocos Disciples]

Boston could not afford the more than $27 million Abreu would have cost them in salary and luxury taxes in this season and next, Epstein said.

 

"We have tremendous resources, don't get me wrong. But that's not something we can do," Epstein said. "We have a plan. We're in a position competing with less resources where we have to keep one eye on the future. We can't do certain things."

 

"That's not our dynamic," Epstein said. "We're not going to have an uber-team every year.

 

:dunno:

 

I guess you're saying we shouldn't get him because honesty is the best policy?

 

:harhar:

[a700hitter]

he isnt the force he was when he was hitting .370 49HR and 130+RBI. That isnt him anymore. But he still maintains a very high average' date=' will give you 20-30HR and give an OBP of around .400-.430. He will be huge in your lineup for at least the first half of this 6 yr deal.[/quote']He's a better hitter iinjured than most other guys when they are healthy. Hitting behind Ortiz and Manny won't hurt him either. Yankee fans will soil themselves when they face a lineup with those three guys in the middle.

[a700hitter]

"That's not our dynamic' date='" Epstein said. "We're not going to have an uber-team every year.[/quote']That maybe true, but it's looking like this is one of those years that they will be putting together an "uber-team." John Henry gave them the directive to be aggressive at the end of last season. He knows that this franchise is a gold mine and he doesn't want to run it into the ground by finishing third again and being out of the race by mid-August. They know that their crop of kids are not good enough to bring the franchise back to prominence without some big bold moves like Matsuzaka, etc. Go after this guy Helton. It's not everyday where you get a shot at a superstar without giving up anything major in return. Giving up Hansen, Tavarez, Clement and one of the "B"s is like giving up nothing, a headache, a lemon and a lottery ticket. They'd be fools not to move on this.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

He's a better hitter iinjured than most other guys when they are healthy. Hitting behind Ortiz and Manny won't hurt him either. Yankee fans will soil themselves when they face a lineup with those three guys in the middle.

 

I'm not a fan of giving up young talent for an aging player...however...that would be a nice lineup

 

I would place Julio Lugo and Coco Crisp at the top of the lineup to give us some serious speed. They can both make things happen on the bases and having Ortiz, Ramirez, Helton, Drew, Varitek, and Youkilis behind them...there are no easy outs in this lineup. Not to mention I think Dustin Pedroia will make pitchers work as he regains control of his swing.

 

1. Julio Lugo

2. Coco Crisp

3. David Ortiz

4. Manny Ramirez

5. Todd Helton

6. JD Drew

7. Kevin Youkilis

8. Jason Varitek

9. Dustin Pedroia

 

....impressive lineup to go with an impressive rotation and a deep bullpen.

[Cityofchampions33]

I'm not a fan of giving up young talent for an aging player...however...that would be a nice lineup

 

I would place Julio Lugo and Coco Crisp at the top of the lineup to give us some serious speed. They can both make things happen on the bases and having Ortiz, Ramirez, Helton, Drew, Varitek, and Youkilis behind them...there are no easy outs in this lineup. Not to mention I think Dustin Pedroia will make pitchers work as he regains control of his swing.

 

1. Julio Lugo

2. Coco Crisp

3. David Ortiz

4. Manny Ramirez

5. Todd Helton

6. JD Drew

7. Kevin Youkilis

8. Jason Varitek

9. Dustin Pedroia

 

....impressive lineup to go with an impressive rotation and a deep bullpen.

 

No matter which way you put 'em, it's a very strong lineup, and could be even stronger if Tek regains anything he used to have, Pedroia does well, and Youkilis cuts down on his K's.

[Gom]

ESPN is rumoring that Helton for Lowell can get the job done. The Rockies want to rid themselves of the contract and taking one yr of Lowell at 9 mil vs 6yrs of 90 mil for Helton is their bit.

 

I would seriously contemplate shooting myself if this came to pass.

[a700hitter]

I'm not a fan of giving up young talent for an aging player...however...that would be a nice lineup

Everyone likes young talent. Matsuzaka, Beckett and Papelbon are young talent. Hansen and one of the "B"s are unproven talent. It's up to the FO to know if those guys can make it in the majors. I don't think the FO with all their scout and talent evaluators know whether those guys will make it. If they don't have a strong feeling that Hansen and Bulcholz or Bowden will be stars then you are not really parting with young "talent" just young prospects.

[example1]

They do have faith that those guys will be stars. All three of the B's have had considerable success at every level, except for Bard who probably has the best stuff but is very inconsistent. I think the Sox are playing tough to get.

 

About the quotes above about Theo saying he didn't want to give up the pieces for Abreu: THEO DIDN'T WANT ABREU. Why is that so hard to see? For whatever reason Abreu wasn't a player they were wiling to give up a 1st roudn pick for. The Phillies, as part of getting rid of Abreu took NYYs first round pick from 2005, right? So that's roughly the equivalent of giving up Jacoby Ellsbury, Bowden or Buchholz. It sounds like its STILL something that they would be reluctant to do, even for a player that woudl fit perfectly into the team as currently constructed.

 

As much as its nice to say that Theo dropped the ball and didn't sign Abreu, I don't think its true. I think Abreu would not have helped this team last year and would be more of a problem than not moving forward. Now they have JD drew, a comparable player (except to Jacksonian ) and they only had to pay money (which the yankees have to pay as well anyway), not first round picks. Now it looks like there's a possibility of picking up Todd Helton, possibly without giving up a first round pick.

 

I don't see it as hypocracy or even changing their tune. Picking up JD Drew didn't cost a first round pick. Getting Helton may not cost that. It seems consistent to me. Theo hasn't suddenly stopped valuing young players. If anything, the fact that we're discussing a deal for a former top 5 NL hitter in which ONE first round pick would get the deal done I think is an indicator that Theo is right in his approach and that there is still a plan. . If we wanted to trade Bowden, Bard, Buchholz and Ellsbury we could, in theory, get just about anyone in baseball (Pujols and Yankees aside). I think that says a lot against those of you (a700) who love to point out that they're not real MLB talent but prospects. Apparently other organizations can imagine a day when all 4 are playing in the bigs and adding something really nice to their team. When you add MDC and Hansen to the mix I personally see a vindication of the entire rebuilding process the past few years. We apparently have 6 players who are either on the cusp of the MLB or who are in the minors that many other teams would unload their high-salary guys to get.

[TheKilo]

I'd part with Bard and Bowden to get this done. Hesitant about Ellsbury and Buchholz.

[example1]

I'd part with Bard and Bowden to get this done. Hesitant about Ellsbury and Buchholz.

 

That's a lot of starting pitching. Bard's the only one I would let go. I think Bowden is already at--possibly ahead--of where Jon Lester was at his age.

[example1]

I'd part with Bard and Bowden to get this done. Hesitant about Ellsbury and Buchholz.

 

Just to clarify why I said Bowden is probably a better pitcher than Lester was at this age: with limited data:

 

Age 19, First Full Season:

 

2006: Michael Bowden (Greenville-A) 9-6, 107 IP, 3.51ERA, 118K/31BB, 7.61 H/9, 9.86 K/9, 1.13 WHIP

 

2003: Jon Lester (Augusta-A) 6-9, 106 IP, 3.65ERA, 77K/44BB, 8.66 H9, 6.03 K/9, 1.38 WHIP

 

Look at the difference in Ks in the same number of IP. Fewer TOTAL walks, by a considerable margain and more K's. His control and stuff just appear to be better.

 

Given that the year after Lester's above performance he was almost traded as a key part of a deal to net Alex Rodriguez, I don't think we should just get Bowden confused with the other B's or toss him aside lightly. Everything screams "Major League Pitcher" with this kid.

[TheKilo]

I don't think it'd take any of the young 'spects besides Hansen.

 

The Sox have all of the leverage here. If they don't like the deal, they can walk.

 

The Rocks will need to kick in some salary though.

[CrespoBlows]

a deep bullpen.

 

:lol: :lol:

[a700hitter]

They do have faith that those guys will be stars. All three of the B's have had considerable success at every level' date=' except for Bard who probably has the best stuff but is very inconsistent.[/quote']None of us on this site truly know how the Red Sox FO has evaluated these players. They'd be stupid to come out and say that they didn't think these guys had a lot of upside in the majors. We don't know and hopefully other organizations don't know. This type of evaluation is proprietary information of the Red Sox FO. Their actions will show you what they think of them. If they trade them, that will indicate more than anything else that they didn't view them as future stars.

About the quotes above about Theo saying he didn't want to give up the pieces for Abreu: THEO DIDN'T WANT ABREU. Why is that so hard to see? For whatever reason Abreu wasn't a player they were wiling to give up a 1st roudn pick for. The Phillies' date=' as part of getting rid of Abreu took NYYs first round pick from 2005, right?[/quote']It was a mistake. They ended up going hard after an injury prone JD Drew and signing him for 5 years. Abreu was a one year deal. The Red Sox could have done a lot with the additional $50+ million for the next 4 years. THe whole Abreu/Drew debate could have been avoided if they did the smart thing and kept Damon from going to the Yankees. The FO made a series of blunders including Abreu and they are working as hard as hell to recover from this series of mistakes.

I think that says a lot against those of you (a700) who love to point out that they're not real MLB talent but prospects. Apparently other organizations can imagine a day when all 4 are playing in the bigs and adding something really nice to their team. When you add MDC and Hansen to the mix I personally see a vindication of the entire rebuilding process the past few years. We apparently have 6 players who are either on the cusp of the MLB or who are in the minors that many other teams would unload their high-salary guys to get.

Until they do it in the majors, they are only prospects. It's the job of the FO to figure out which will make it and which will not. I hate to burst your bubble, but you will never see the day when MDC, Hansen, Bucholz, Bowden, Ellsbury, and Bard are all on the Red Sox roster and performing above average. I'd be happy if two of them become major contributors. I don't get excited about prospects until I start seeing them do it at the big league level.

[mar_022]

Ortiz, Manny, Drew, Helton is as close to a modern day murderer's row as you will find. I was worried when i first saw the rumor on espn, thinking the sox would have to give up too much young talent. But if we could swing Lowell, Tavares, and Hansen/MDC i'd be all for it. that would be an amazing deal for us, especially considering the rox would still kick in some salary

[example1]

None of us on this site truly know how the Red Sox FO has evaluated these players. They'd be stupid to come out and say that they didn't think these guys had a lot of upside in the majors. We don't know and hopefully other organizations don't know. This type of evaluation is proprietary information of the Red Sox FO. Their actions will show you what they think of them. If they trade them' date=' that will indicate more than anything else that they didn't view them as future stars.[/quote']

 

I think the fact that they took these guys in the supplemental and 1st round of the draft indicate that they think highly of them. I think the fact that they paid more for the past two drafts than just about anyone in baseball indicates that they think they got big time talent. They went after guys that other guys were afraid of because of financial concerns. Guys like Bard and Hansen are examples of that.

 

Does the fact that the Sox traded Hanley Ramirez and Annibel Sanchez for Beckett indicate that they don't think they'll be future stars? I don't think so. I think it indicates that they prefered the prospect of getting Beckett immediately to holding onto those two. Of course, those two weren't #2 overall picks who had already won a WS by the age of 23. The Sox thought very highly of Hanley Ramirez. Sometimes you give up good players to get other good players.

 

 

 

It was a mistake. They ended up going hard after an injury prone JD Drew and signing him for 5 years. Abreu was a one year deal. The Red Sox could have done a lot with the additional $50+ million for the next 4 years.

 

They can also do a lot with Jacoby Ellsbury for the next 4 years. Given that the Yankees traded the #17 overall pick (SS Carl Henry, drafted 6 spots ahead of Ellsbury) to get Abreu for 1 year, I think it makes a lot more sense to get a player equal to Abreu AND keep Ellsbury to become your starting CF. Especially since they would have given up Ellsbury for a player they had control of for 1.5 years in a year where, with injuries and a weak pitching staff they were not going to win anyway. Would you be surprised if the Yankees signed Bobby Abreu to a 4 year deal for an AAV of roughly what Drew is making after this season? I wouldn't.

 

I hate to burst your bubble, but you will never see the day when MDC, Hansen, Bucholz, Bowden, Ellsbury, and Bard are all on the Red Sox roster and performing above average.

I'd be happy if two of them become major contributors. I don't get excited about prospects until I start seeing them do it at the big league level.

 

Yes, we all know you don't think that prospects tend to pan out. That's fine. And I agree with you that we won't see a day when MDC, Hansen, Buchholz, Bowden, Ellsbury and Bard are all on the same roster and performing above average. The ones I see as least likely to perform above average are (in order) MDC, Bard, Hansen, Buchholz, Bowden and Ellsbury. I'd trade MDC in a heartbeat.

[BoSox21]

I dont know, I think im more skeptical about all this Helton stuff than most here. just seems to me like the '07 Sox arent gonna have an identity.

[RedSoxRooter]

If the deal does come down to Helton for Lowell, Tavares and either Hansen or MDC I think it's a no brainer. But I'm torn on the Hansen/MDC part.

 

I'm still high on both of them. Neither was supposed to be in the majors this soon and both have pretty bright future if they pan out. I can't decide which one to part with. If we need a closer then we should obviously try and keep Hansen. But Manny's a good little pitcher too. I just like the guy.

 

I know Hansen gets knocked around by some of you here, but he seriously could be lights out. And Manny could be a terrific setup guy.

 

I'd like it if we kept them both and offered all the other junk. Gabbard, Snyder, Pauley, Hansak and asked for only 30 million. But that's unrealistic and probably stupid.

 

So I guess I'd give up Delcarmen over Hansen in the deal. Reluctantly.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I love this deal...

 

From what I've heard of Helton, he's a consumate professional in the clubhouse. I loved the way Lowell fit into this team, and I think Helton could do the same, with some more pop on the field. I love moving Youk back to 3rd where he's the most comfortable, and bringing in a GG caliber 1B into our everyday lineup. This guy is like Doug Minky D with potential .310/35/120 numbers. Makes sense on all counts as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the idea of giving up BOTH MDC and Hansen...but to be honest, I don't think either of them are ever going to be anything spectacular in this league. Granted, I could be wrong...but I was expecting more out of both to this point than I have seen. I think they'll both be solid players, but I don't think for a second anymore that Hansen is our "lockdown closer of the future" as he was touted at one time.

 

With how solid Helton is in the field...do you think it'd be possible to have him play 3rd during Interleague to keep him and Papi in the lineup? I know 3B and 1B are far different positions, but I don't think its out of the realm of possibilities that a guy with such a grasp on 1B could play at least a presentable 3B if need be for a 3 or 4 game set.

[a700hitter]

I dont know' date=' I think im more skeptical about all this Helton stuff than most here. just seems to me like the '07 Sox arent gonna have an identity.[/quote']They will have a "B" on their caps and "Red Sox" across the front of the home whites and "Boston" across the visiting greys. What do you mean by an identity?

[CrespoBlows]

I dont know' date=' I think im more skeptical about all this Helton stuff than most here. just seems to me like the '07 Sox arent gonna have an identity.[/quote']

 

CLUCTCH TUFFGRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NO!!!!!!

[a700hitter]

I think the fact that they took these guys in the supplemental and 1st round of the draft indicate that they think highly of them. I think the fact that they paid more for the past two drafts than just about anyone in baseball indicates that they think they got big time talent. They went after guys that other guys were afraid of because of financial concerns. Guys like Bard and Hansen are examples of that.

Evaluations of players change. The fact that they were highly regarded at Draft time doesn't mean that they currently think they will be stars.

Does the fact that the Sox traded Hanley Ramirez and Annibel Sanchez for Beckett indicate that they don't think they'll be future stars? I don't think so. I think it indicates that they prefered the prospect of getting Beckett immediately to holding onto those two. Of course, those two weren't #2 overall picks who had already won a WS by the age of 23. The Sox thought very highly of Hanley Ramirez. Sometimes you give up good players to get other good players.

Ramirez was clearly a better prospect and more advanced than any of the players being discussed for Helton. Hanley was signed by the Red Sox in 2000, so by 2006 he was major league ready. Five years of seasoning is a long time. The Red Sox traded him for a young stud pitcher with major league success. This deal is for an older guy and the talent being discussed is not at all equivalent to Hanley Ramirez. During his 5 years in the Red Sox organization opinions about him changed back and forth. At certain times they were not very high on him. The development of kids is an inexact science.

[BoSox21]

They will have a "B" on their caps and "Red Sox" across the front of the home whites and "Boston" across the visiting greys. What do you mean by an identity?

 

the team just seems like a bunch of random parts thrown together. I could be wrong but I have more skepticism than most about this upcoming year

[ksushi]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/492676p-415019c.html

 

The Rockies have agreed to eat half the salary, but want the sox to throw in Hansen, MDC, or Bard. The sox are balking.

 

boston globe and herald have stories out too. It seems that the Rockies want 2 players who could help down the line. Hansen has been the first name brought up, the others indicated at Bard, Ellsbury, or MDC.

 

They can't throw in Bard. He was drafted just last year.

[a700hitter]

the team just seems like a bunch of random parts thrown together. I could be wrong but I have more skepticism than most about this upcoming year

It's a 162 game season with about 30 pre-season games. There's plenty of time to get to know each other. It's not like football where it takes time to learn a system or to learn a players moves, etc. It's not like basketball, where you have to worry about players getting enough shots etc. Baseball is more of an individual sport than these others. The Oakland A's despised each other as did the Yankees of the 70's, yet those two teams have 5 of the 10 championships from that decade. I don't know what your concern is about random parts if they are really good parts. I'd be much more concerned with Hinske or WMP playing the OF.

[BoSox21]

you make good points. if anything, im excited to see how all these changes work out

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

A team with no identity?? I disagree because I love the way this team looks. Its not exactly a team of stars but a team of players out to prove something... Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Pineiro, Crisp, Lugo, Romero, Drew etc...all have something to show Red Sox Nation. Meanwhile you have Ortiz, Lowell, Varitek, Youkilis, Schilling, Wakefield, Mirabelli, etc. who are good clubhouse guys that all are competitive and know what it takes to win.

 

Adding a player like Todd Helton (Rockies were never that good) would be a welcome addition to the clubhouse. I'm sure he would be looking to contibute as much as possible to a team built to win a championship.

 

Also, if there is one thing Francona is good at (probably the only thing) its getting a team to gel.

[jacksonianmarch]

They can't throw in Bard. He was drafted just last year.

 

yes they can. He can now be a PTBNL as he was drafted 6 months ago, nearly to the day.

[jacksonianmarch]

A team with no identity?? I disagree because I love the way this team looks. Its not exactly a team of stars but a team of players out to prove something... Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Pineiro, Crisp, Lugo, Romero, Drew etc...all have something to show Red Sox Nation. Meanwhile you have Ortiz, Lowell, Varitek, Youkilis, Schilling, Wakefield, Mirabelli, etc. who are good clubhouse guys that all are competitive and know what it takes to win.

 

Adding a player like Todd Helton (Rockies were never that good) would be a welcome addition to the clubhouse. I'm sure he would be looking to contibute as much as possible to a team built to win a championship.

 

Also, if there is one thing Francona is good at (probably the only thing) its getting a team to gel.

 

having players with "something to prove" typically means you are having players who sucked recently.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's a better hitter iinjured than most other guys when they are healthy. Hitting behind Ortiz and Manny won't hurt him either. Yankee fans will soil themselves when they face a lineup with those three guys in the middle.

 

700, our lineup is still better top to bottom and nobody soils themselves facing us. It will be tough, but not unbeatable.