Dustin's DP Buddy ('07 SS - Pervs!)

[Optimist]

Id like to see Craig Counsell, that would be neat.

 

We could spend the whole season laughing about how Counsell has two World Series rings and A-Rod has none.

 

Why would you care that Craig Counsell has more rings than the Cubs' short stop?

[ORS]

Red Seat; there isn't a chance that Lugo has a better range than Gonzalez.

Lugo has better wheels, Gonzo better instincts. Perhaps that makes them a wash, and statistically, they appear to be equals in terms of how many balls they get to. Lugo's bat is substantially better than Gonzo's though. Definitely good enough to justify choosing him over Gonzo's more sure hands.

[Cityofchampions33]

The Red Sox can carry Gonzalez and even Pedroia in their line up if they can get a productive firstbaseman and Pena doing his job in RF.

 

I agree, there's two possible big holes in the lineup right there, and if Pena doesn't do decent, and we keep the corner infielders that we have, it makes for a pretty weak lineup. I eman tehre's a point to look out for defense, but don't let it cut into our lineup again. We can't just depend on manny and Ortiz.

[a700hitter]

Red Seat; there isn't a chance that Lugo has a better range than Gonzalez.

 

Counsil and Pedroia aren't ML starting Shortstop caliber, they are second baseman who would hurt a team defense (not just in errors, but in range) if they play in a regular basis. The Red Sox can carry Gonzalez and even Pedroia in their line up if they can get a productive firstbaseman and Pena doing his job in RF.

I agree, but this assumes that they keep Manny.

[ksushi]

Lugo has better wheels' date=' Gonzo better instincts. Perhaps that makes them a wash, and statistically, they appear to be equals in terms of how many balls they get to. Lugo's bat is substantially better than Gonzo's though. Definitely good enough to justify choosing him over Gonzo's more sure hands.[/quote']

 

 

Forget defensive statistics. Pay Gonzo due respect. No way does Lugo touch Gonzo's range. Speed does not always translate into defensive range. Lugo is faster, but Gonzo is a wizard. I'd take Gonzo over Lugo 30 times over. SS is a position that offense is expendable.

[ORS]

Right. Throw the stats out cause you says so. That sounds smart. I like Gonzo's D, and Lugo doesn't compare when you are talking complete defensive package (I think I've said that already).

 

Sure offense is expendable up the middle. But, when you are average to maybe a little below average on the corners, you need to pick up offensive runs somewhere.

[mosox]

I don't consider offense up the middle to be expendable, especially when the Sox will be trading Loretta's bat for Pedroia's. Lugo's stats, including OBP are better than Counsel and closer to Loretta's. This team cannot afford to add more offense holes to the lineup. Flashing leather is not enough, they need a shortstop who can hit.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't consider offense up the middle to be expendable' date=' especially when the Sox will be trading Loretta's bat for Pedroia's. [/quote']

 

How much a fall-off do you expect? Loretta's not that good of an offensive player.

[mosox]

How much a fall-off do you expect? Loretta's not that good of an offensive player.

 

I think Loretta is a VERY good hitting second baseman. 33 doubles, 181 hits, 345 OBP, 285 avg, and just 63 K's in 635 AB's. Only Cano, Roberts and Grudzielanek had better years at 2nd base. Replacing his bat in the lineup is not that easy.

[ORS]

I think Loretta is a VERY good hitting second baseman. 33 doubles' date=' 181 hits, 345 OBP, 285 avg, and just 63 K's in 635 AB's. Only Cano, Roberts and Grudzielanek had better years at 2nd base. Replacing his bat in the lineup is not that easy.[/quote']

10th in EqR

22nd in RARP

26th in VORP

 

Try again.

[jacksonianmarch]

I hate those sabremetric values. I look at it based upon his position in the lineup. If he was leadoff, then a .345OBP is fair, and his OPS and SLG arent as useful. As the 2 hitter, I think you need to have a .800+OPS because you need to be a run producer as well, in front of the big run producers. As a 2 hitter, he isnt worth his salt.

[ORS]

What's to hate about them? Statistically, they have pretty much nailed down offensive contribution. It's not exact, but it's pretty close. It gives you a way of trying to look at everything (OBP, SLG, SB, SF, etc.) on one common scale. How else are you going to determine who's more valuable to your lineup when you are comparing two players that contribute in different ways?

 

Player A hits for a decent average, gets on base at a good clip, but has no speed and little power. Player B doesn't make contact as often, but when he does he gets more extra bases, and has speed. Who's more valuable?

[jacksonianmarch]

What's to hate about them? Statistically, they have pretty much nailed down offensive contribution. It's not exact, but it's pretty close. It gives you a way of trying to look at everything (OBP, SLG, SB, SF, etc.) on one common scale. How else are you going to determine who's more valuable to your lineup when you are comparing two players that contribute in different ways?

 

Player A hits for a decent average, gets on base at a good clip, but has no speed and little power. Player B doesn't make contact as often, but when he does he gets more extra bases, and has speed. Who's more valuable?

 

call me traditional, what can I say. I have always viewed players based on traditional stats with the added caveat of knowing if they had speed or not and if they made contact or not. Less scientific, maybe, but I have always been a feel kind of guy when it comes to evaluating players.

[Bosoxwest]

Loretta is past his prime. End of story. He has the range of a mailbox, and doesn't get it done with the bat. He hits for average, and makes contact - he is adequate, but that's it. He has the lowest SLG (and SecAvg) of any starting 2B in the AL, AND the lowest GB/FB ratio (he does have a higher LD% than many 2B, but not higher enough). His RC/G dropped for the third consecutive year in 2006 despite coming to a better offensive team in a better hitter's park. The package just isn't there. Even ignoring the stats, I don't understand how to defend him. He is a professional, no question, but watching him play is agony.

 

If the team doesn't trade Manny they can carry Gonzalez's bat no problem. They did not have an issue scoring runs this year when healthy. Gonzalez comes about $4Mil a year cheaper than Lugo, who is not equal to that value in terms of an upgrade, on paper, and who has yet to be tested in Fenway Park, which AGon has. Perhaps the FO feels they can throw that money around. Personally I'd prefer to see it spent on pitching.

[scaffolds]

There isn't a question that Lugo its a better hitter than Gonzalez and has better speed, however Gonzalez has the better power. As defense goes Gonzalez its the better defensive SS of the two and with a lot better range. The Sox needs to keep that left side (Gonzalez & Lowell) of the infield together.

 

For those who don't the way Loretta plays baseball Pedroia ceiling its Loretta. In another words Pedroia's game it very similar to Loretta.

[Bosoxwest]

Scaff, I think you're referring to a younger Mark Loretta? Pedroia's range appears visually, and via RF and ZR, to be far superior to Loretta's. Also, Loretta had zero power this year, but showed some in the past. I think if DP turns out to be Loretta circa 2003/4 (at the plate), everybody turns cartwheels. But we would expect better from DP than Loretta's 2006, easily as soon as 2008.

[jacksonianmarch]

Scaff' date=' I think you're referring to a younger Mark Loretta? Pedroia's range appears visually, and via RF and ZR, to be far superior to Loretta's. Also, Loretta had zero power this year, but showed some in the past. I think if DP turns out to be Loretta circa 2003/4 (at the plate), everybody turns cartwheels. But we would expect better from DP than Loretta's 2006, easily as soon as 2008.[/quote']

 

we will see. I am always worried about the little engine that could types. Eckstein is one guy who really showed he could hit as well as Biggio, but for each one of those guys, there have been 20 little engines that couldnt. He was way overmatched when he came up, but many people had that problem in their first yr. 2007 is gonna be crucial for him.

[exsubmariner]

We go into the HotStove season without a key position filled, shortstop. Here's who is available in the market.....

 

Gonzo, Lugo, Royce Clayton, Craig Counsell.........and not much else.

 

I think the best two options are Gonzo or Lugo with either weighing in heavily on opposite sides of the offense/defense spectrum. Gonzo's the gloveman with no stick. Lugo is a very offensive talent for a MIF, but his D is suspect. Personally, I think Lugo's extra range over Gonzo makes up for the miscues he might make, so they should get the extra offense.

 

Myself I take glove over the bat at this position and Gonzo will hit in the 270 area so I say sign him for 3 at 12 - 14 mil.

[mosox]

I really have a tough time thinking a lineup with Gonzo, Crisp and Dustin will compete with Toronto and NY. These guys are rally killers.

[scaffolds]

I really have a tough time thinking a lineup with Gonzo' date=' Crisp and Dustin will compete with Toronto and NY. These guys are rally killers.[/quote']

 

That is the point if they had better production out first base and right field they could carry those players.

[jacksonianmarch]

That is the point if they had better production out first base and right field they could carry those players.

 

again, no they cannot. A dead bottom 3 makes your team a national league team in a die hard AL league.

[scaffolds]

Again, I disagree, a healthy Coco would be at the top of the line up and with his speed would be stealing bases, scoring runs and his bat its good enough that it won't had to be carried for, Gonzalez defense is so good that it carries it self, the question may be Pedroia, but again with a productive first baseman it would carry him, however Pedroia is capable of putting the same numbers that Youkilis did in 06 minus the high OBP that was due to the high number of base on balls.

[BSN07]

Yes he can steal but the sox just arent a running team, I think he will be a great player but he's just maybe not the mold they need in boston, if you can get something good for him deal him, bring in Dave Roberts for the year and let Ellsbury take over, I heard nothing but good of this kid, as for SS if you don't want gonzo back the get soriano at second for production and maybe give pedroia a shot at ss, I wouldnt mind giving some of our young guys a shot, Pedroia I think has earned a shot now, Ellsbury maybe mid season our next year but both should have a chance soon.

[elsrbueno]

Why do we have to choose between Lugo and Gonzalez?

 

If it were my team I'd sign them both, play Lugo at second and Gonzalez at short. Lugo's an upgrade from Loretta and would provide good defense. The Red Sox retain one of the better defensive shortstops in the game.

 

I'm just plain not sold on Pedroia-- he could prove me wrong but he just seems like a low-production kind of second baseman, and with our corner infielders not putting up the numbers we can't afford an infield of Lowell,Gonzo,Pedroia,Youkilis.

 

Remember-- Pedroia's PEAK is Loretta.

 

Scaffolds is right-- we need to trade either Lowell or Youkilis and get a corner infielder who can HIT.

[example1]

You're right about Lowell/Youkilis. My vote is in trading Lowell because although he has less value than Youk, he doesn't have as much long term value for the sox.

 

How do you know Pedroia's PEAK is Loretta? That's a strong statement.

 

Gonzo will be wanting like 3 million a year for 3-4 years. That's too much for a guy who doesn't hit. If he needs to stick to his guns then we gotta let him go. It's that simple.

[a700hitter]

You're right about Lowell/Youkilis. My vote is in trading Lowell because although he has less value than Youk' date=' he doesn't have as much long term value for the sox.[/quote']Neither one has long term value to the Sox. Youk has value because he is young and cheap, not because he will hold down a position for the long run. Trade the less talented 3B with the higher trade value. Keep the better 3B with the lower trade value. While Youk has higher trade value, he is not better than Lowell so he doesn't have more value to the Sox except as trade bait.

[example1]

Neither one has long term value to the Sox. Youk has value because he is young and cheap' date=' not because he will hold down a position for the long run. Trade the less talented 3B with the higher trade value. Keep the better 3B with the lower trade value. While Youk has higher trade value, he is not better than Lowell so he doesn't have more value to the Sox except as trade bait.[/quote']

 

 

Everyone talks about Youkilis as if he's been around for 20 years. It's sad that people are so willing to give up on him while simultaneously saying that they don't think we can get much for him.

 

I'm going out on a limb here: unless the Sox get something good in the deal they are not trading Youk. They would trade Lowell for a bag of rice to save the 9million and spend it on, oh say Aramis Ramirez or Akinoura (I believe that's his name).

[a700hitter]

Everyone talks about Youkilis as if he's been around for 20 years. It's sad that people are so willing to give up on him while simultaneously saying that they don't think we can get much for him.

 

I'm going out on a limb here: unless the Sox get something good in the deal they are not trading Youk. They would trade Lowell for a bag of rice to save the 9million and spend it on, oh say Aramis Ramirez or Akinoura (I believe that's his name).

The Sox problem is not $. They've got the money to spend on FA's,but there is a limited pool of good relievers available. Youk will get us more in a trade than the bag of rice we would get for Lowell, so why not trade him for a good arm to shore up the bullpen.

[example1]

a) because youk can play 1st.

 

because there are no (few) good 1st basemen available to replace him.

 

c) the Sox problem, like every major company's problem, is ALWAYS money. 9 million on Lowell is 9 million they don't spend elsewhere. Like it or not they are cost conscious

 

d) the two players are very similar except one is younger, more versitile and WAY cheaper.

 

e) there ARE available 3rd basemen who will easily be a better value than Lowell's 9 million. Aramis will cost more but produce considerably more, and Iwamura will probably cost less and produce the same or better, INCLUDING the ability to win a GG.

 

Youkilis will still be a valuable trading chip on July 31st or next offseason or the year after. Lowell will not.

 

This is a tired conversation though. It has been had over and over again.

 

Apparently you're sure that the Sox can get a 1st Baseman out there like Duncan or someone like that. If that's the case then fine. But if Jeff Bagwell is your answer then no thanks. You're not happy with Eric Henske are you? If not then what is your solution? Trade Youkilis for 1B help? What we need is RP, SP and power on one of the corner--of which there are two very skilled players on the market. Like you said, money isn't a matter right? So they can sign one of the FA's and be done with it.

[Cityofchampions33]

IMO, this team has plenty of defense, and we lack tehreof in offense and pitching. Though the bullpen is a top priority, the problem enlies almost fully in the pen, and acquiring 1 good starter.

The offense is basically Papi and Manny, with no otehr decent threat that can be respected as close as the two mentioned. If we can get Aramis Ramirez, and can trade Lowell for a decent arm for the pen, we kill 2 birds with one stone, getting a deepball threat and a (hopefully) reliable arm. Coco is an auto upgrade from himself last year so tehre's a solid leadoff, letting us move Youk into the second spot where he can be very dangerous. If we sign Lugo as spoken of, we have a solid lineup again and can focus on pitching for the rest of the off-season.

 

CF Crisp

1B Youkilis

DH Ortiz

LF M. Ramirez

3B A. Ramirez

C Varitek

RF Pena

SS Lugo

2B Pedroia

 

This of-seaosn could very right or very wrong. Doing the mentioned would be a good step IMO, maybe shipping Lowell and otehrs to SD for Linebrink (who would be a very solid arm). The rest I can't see any obvious solutons.