Sox's 2007 first baseman.

[example1]

He had a .400 OBP through the trade deadline (until 7/29 at least), .390 by August 31st. He was not playing out of his head, he was playing like the progression of the player we'd seen the past two seasons beforehand. Good eye, made solid contact.

 

I think he got tired by the end of the season but after his workload how could he not? Not only do I give him a pass for last year, I actually think he had a solid season last year. For a good portion of time he was the 1st or 2nd best hitter in the lineup, which is a lot of pressure for a guy in his first season. The guy can handle hitting for the red sox in Boston. He gets up in big at-bats and sees more pitches per appearance and total than nearly anyone else, all of his peers (as stated in another thread) are amazng players.

 

You want a hitter up in the 9th inning, hoping to get to Papi behind him, hoping to get someone on base to score a run. You have a guy leading off who gets on base at a .39% clip, when stats show that the leadoff hitter scores 43% of the time they get on 1st.

 

Again, I think this guy is valuable and the sox shouldn't let him go without a good return.

[wave it fair]

But trading him in a package better bring back something nice. I guess OBP means nothing to you, since the only redeeming value you see in him is that he is a nice blue-collar player... kind of like Brian Dabauch. I disagree. I think his OBP would be coveted by teams that know what they're doing. I'm not going to discuss this much more, as its just a matter of opinion.

 

I think the guy who had the 2nd highest p/pa in the league and who saw the 3rd most pitches in all of baseball is valuable for more than being "blue collar". think sox fans are smarter than that, I think other teams are smarter than that, and I think the sox FO is much smarter than that.

 

But if you want to trade him wth Crisp and another player for Heathcliff Slocomb then go ahead.

 

I can feel your frustration with this topic of discussion. It's really easy for a lot of fans to look at his power numbers and spout that tired line of how Youk doesn't put up the kind of power numbers you want from a first or third baseman. It's a lazy response from fans who hear it dribbling out of every talking head on ESPN and every hack writer who doesn't know how to read the vast majority of stats provided to them in media packs at every game.

 

Based on his OBP (.381) and the number of pitches he sees in the average plate appearance Youk brings value to this team. Then look at the fact that in his first full season in MLB he drove in 72 runs and scored another 100. He's 27 years old and stands to build on those numbers. He certainly has a chance to hit 20 HR's and drive in 80-85. He isn't ever going to be a guy who hits 30 HR's and drives in 100 runs. But on a balanced team those numbers he put up last season are a valuable commodity. And that's not even mentioning the solid to great defense he provided at first base and that he's a bit of a sparkplug type player.

 

However, he played on a team who's lineup wasn't real balanced. Loretta never really delivered consistently in the two hole. Then he was pushed around in the lineup and started struggling at the plate. If the off-season provides the team with a little better balance in the lineup and the team finds an everyday spot in the batting order Youk's value is maximized.

 

It doesn't take a hard core fan to recognize that he's viewed as a viable commodity for many teams who would welcome him into a lineup. Trading him at this point is hasty and ill-timed. I'm not ready to see another solid player traded off or this team or out of the organization because he doesn't produce sexy stats. That approach cost this team in the past and I'm not ready to wait for another title because the front office thinks every 25 HR hitter in the league becomes a 35 HR hitter in Fenway.

[a700hitter]

He had a .400 OBP through the trade deadline (until 7/29 at least), .390 by August 31st. He was not playing out of his head, he was playing like the progression of the player we'd seen the past two seasons beforehand. Good eye, made solid contact.

 

I think he got tired by the end of the season but after his workload how could he not?

It's a 162 game season. It doesn't end at the trading deadline or in August. Youk is the only tired player at the end of the season? This is just an excuse.

Not only do I give him a pass for last year' date=' I actually think he had a solid season last year.[/quote']It was solid, but unspecatcular. First base is a premium offensive position. Solid is not enough.

Again' date=' I think this guy is valuable and the sox shouldn't let him go without a good return.[/quote']I hope he draws alot of interest. He'll get more interest than Lowell.

[example1]

I can feel your frustration with this topic of discussion. It's really easy for a lot of fans to look at his power numbers and spout that tired line of how Youk doesn't put up the kind of power numbers you want from a first or third baseman. It's a lazy response from fans who hear it dribbling out of every talking head on ESPN and every hack writer who doesn't know how to read the vast majority of stats provided to them in media packs at every game.

 

Based on his OBP (.381) and the number of pitches he sees in the average plate appearance Youk brings value to this team. Then look at the fact that in his first full season in MLB he drove in 72 runs and scored another 100. He's 27 years old and stands to build on those numbers. He certainly has a chance to hit 20 HR's and drive in 80-85. He isn't ever going to be a guy who hits 30 HR's and drives in 100 runs. But on a balanced team those numbers he put up last season are a valuable commodity. And that's not even mentioning the solid to great defense he provided at first base and that he's a bit of a sparkplug type player.

 

However, he played on a team who's lineup wasn't real balanced. Loretta never really delivered consistently in the two hole. Then he was pushed around in the lineup and started struggling at the plate. If the off-season provides the team with a little better balance in the lineup and the team finds an everyday spot in the batting order Youk's value is maximized.

 

It doesn't take a hard core fan to recognize that he's viewed as a viable commodity for many teams who would welcome him into a lineup. Trading him at this point is hasty and ill-timed. I'm not ready to see another solid player traded off or this team or out of the organization because he doesn't produce sexy stats. That approach cost this team in the past and I'm not ready to wait for another title because the front office thinks every 25 HR hitter in the league becomes a 35 HR hitter in Fenway.

 

Although I agree with you on most of these Youkilis related points, I think your assumptions about the people I'm arguing with are a little bold. a700hitter and scaffolds have both displayed a tremendous amount of red sox knowledge and passion and I very much respect their views (otherwise I wouldn't argue with them for hours on end... I feel I'm right but can't be sure cause they don't agree).

 

I wouldn't call them unintelligent or blind to the truth. The red sox are in a very tough time right now where they have the potential to be torn in 5 directions without a coherent plan. Given that we don't have access to that plan (due to new FO policies around secrecy) its all about guessing and it is only logical to keep all options on the table.

 

Between moving Lowell or Youkilis there is a pretty big divide because one can offer you a better return on the market while the other is a bigger drain on your large (yet finite) financial resources. It is also true that, in order to compete offensively with the Yankees (compete, not outslug) the sox need to have most of the positions that are tradtionally offensive-minded to be offensive minded, and the rest of the positions to be average to better than average. On a tremendous offensive team, youk would be one of the "weaker" hitters. We hope to have a tremendous offensive team, youk makes about what a "weaker" hitter should make, he's a role player, plays well in Boston's pressure, gets on base and has positional flexibility. to me it seems like a no-brainer to get the best available 1B or 3B and move Youk to the other position. It will be very difficult to trade Lowell, granted, but if possible I think its ideal.

 

Anyway, go easy in your first 10 posts at least!

 

Welcome to the board, good post.

[jacksonianmarch]

I disagree with needing to have max production out of the typical offensive positions. The sox have 2 grade A hammers in their lineup. You dont need another one. What you need is to make the rest of the O strong enough to make it impossible to get around the hammers, to continually be on base, and to drive in runs throughout the lineup. Having a lopsided lineup will not work pitchers, which will keep them fresh when they have to face the hammers. The sox were the best in 04 at pitches per plate appearance. That forced starters out of games earlier and they feasted on the weak MR. It also caused the sox to see tired starters, which made for easier scoring against even the best in the game. That doesnt happen if you have 3 1.000+OPS guys and a bunch of scrubs. If you have Ortiz and Manny plus 7 other guys with a .800OPS, the lineup will be deadly. No dead weight, just production all around and the lineup will do what it did 2 yrs ago. If you want to stratify the offense based on which positions need O, then you will create an offense even more reliant on the middle of the order. The 2004 team was reliant on papi and manny, but they could get the job done around them too. Last yrs team couldnt. That was the difference. Make the moves to improve the OPS of 1-9 and the teams O will become legendary again.

[wave it fair]

Although I agree with you on most of these Youkilis related points' date=' I think your assumptions about the people I'm arguing with are a little bold. a700hitter and scaffolds have both displayed a tremendous amount of red sox knowledge and passion and I very much respect their views (otherwise I wouldn't argue with them for hours on end... I [i']feel[/i] I'm right but can't be sure cause they don't agree).

 

I wouldn't call them unintelligent or blind to the truth. The red sox are in a very tough time right now where they have the potential to be torn in 5 directions without a coherent plan. Given that we don't have access to that plan (due to new FO policies around secrecy) its all about guessing and it is only logical to keep all options on the table.

 

Between moving Lowell or Youkilis there is a pretty big divide because one can offer you a better return on the market while the other is a bigger drain on your large (yet finite) financial resources. It is also true that, in order to compete offensively with the Yankees (compete, not outslug) the sox need to have most of the positions that are tradtionally offensive-minded to be offensive minded, and the rest of the positions to be average to better than average. On a tremendous offensive team, youk would be one of the "weaker" hitters. We hope to have a tremendous offensive team, youk makes about what a "weaker" hitter should make, he's a role player, plays well in Boston's pressure, gets on base and has positional flexibility. to me it seems like a no-brainer to get the best available 1B or 3B and move Youk to the other position. It will be very difficult to trade Lowell, granted, but if possible I think its ideal.

 

Anyway, go easy in your first 10 posts at least!

 

Welcome to the board, good post.

 

I wouldn't assume I was talking about anyone in particular. I wasn't. Especially since this type of conversation goes on in just about every Red Sox fourm on the web. As well as other places. I was specifically addressing the frustration you were showing on the topic. And I can't imagine that this board is the only place you've heard it.

 

However, my apologies if anyone thought otherwise.

 

The point I was trying to make was that outside of Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, Mark Teixeira, Paul Konerko and Carlos Delgado... Youk is comparable in terms of "overall" production with a majority of the first baseman after that group I mentioned. Yeah, some guys are going to have more HR's and drive in more runs. But in overall production Youk brings as much to the table as most MLB first basemen. The guy is effective getting on base which means there's a great chance he's going to score with the 3 and 4 hitters in this lineup and at the very least working a pitch count. He drives in runs and 31 of those RBI's came with runners in scoring position and two outs. He hit .325 with RISP overall. Seems to me he's a guy who you can feel pretty good about in that light. That's value!!! And that value isn't always going to show up in just HR and RBI production. There's a whole lot more that can be brought to the table and it's still great production.

[jacksonianmarch]

He had a .400 OBP through the trade deadline (until 7/29 at least), .390 by August 31st. He was not playing out of his head, he was playing like the progression of the player we'd seen the past two seasons beforehand. Good eye, made solid contact.

 

I think he got tired by the end of the season but after his workload how could he not? Not only do I give him a pass for last year, I actually think he had a solid season last year. For a good portion of time he was the 1st or 2nd best hitter in the lineup, which is a lot of pressure for a guy in his first season. The guy can handle hitting for the red sox in Boston. He gets up in big at-bats and sees more pitches per appearance and total than nearly anyone else, all of his peers (as stated in another thread) are amazng players.

 

You want a hitter up in the 9th inning, hoping to get to Papi behind him, hoping to get someone on base to score a run. You have a guy leading off who gets on base at a .39% clip, when stats show that the leadoff hitter scores 43% of the time they get on 1st.

 

Again, I think this guy is valuable and the sox shouldn't let him go without a good return.

 

It was his first full season as a starter since the minor leagues, which finish on September 1st for the most part. He should at least get another yr.

[scaffolds]

Example; OBP is important but if a player that player that plays a production position the only thing that he brings to the table is a high OBP and that high OBP is mainly because of a high number of bases on balls, then that high OBP isn't as important if it would had been a player that plays a non production position like a SS, a second baseman or even a CF.

[ORS]

Example; OBP is important but if a player that player that plays a production position the only thing that he brings to the table is a high OBP and that high OBP is mainly because of a high number of bases on balls' date=' then that high OBP isn't as important if it would had been a player that plays a non production position like a SS, a second baseman or even a CF.[/quote']

This is an important bit of info that I think often gets overlooked. Bosoxwest brought it up in another thread and it warrants mentioning here. Youkilis' OBP, while good in comparison to the league, was only 9th among qualified 1B. Good, but not amazing. Couple it with being 22nd in SLG, and he ended up in 19th in OPS. Ho hum.

[jacksonianmarch]

This is an important bit of info that I think often gets overlooked. Bosoxwest brought it up in another thread and it warrants mentioning here. Youkilis' OBP' date=' while good in comparison to the league, was only 9th among qualified 1B. Good, but not amazing. Couple it with being 22nd in SLG, and he ended up in 19th in OPS. Ho hum.[/quote']

 

True, but if you improve the OPS at 2nd, SS, CF, and RF, then you wont need as much from your 1b.

[BSN07]

What about Mark Texeria down in texas? Everyone seems to thin he is available, if its not to steep of a price then why not he be a great 5 hole hitter to protect manny, and yes people manny isn't going anywhere. There is too many bats on the market. No there not as good as manny's but they will come at a lower cost and they won't have to trade anyone, plus do you really want Ervin Santanna? !st ballot H.O.F. for potential greatness? and thats the only trade ive heard thats even close to being worth wild, milledge and heilmen for manny? please I laughed at that one if they truly do want get rid of manny then send his ass to texas for blalock, tex, and a pitching prospect thoses to could make up for mannys numbers and the we could package lowell to s.d. for linerbrink, or spin Blaylock and a prospect or two for Jake Peavy, In an article on cbssportsline.com they said epstein and the gm for s.d. are close friends and that Jake Peavy had come up, just some thoughts.

[jacksonianmarch]

The rangers need young pitching and the sox dont have it. A pitching rich team is a likely destination if he is to get moved at all. The rumor is Bonderman for Tex straight up.

[BSN07]

Ive also heard Travis Hafner could be had as well, not great D but another good hitter for the 5 spot.

[jsinger121]

Ive also heard Travis Hafner could be had as well' date=' not great D but another good hitter for the 5 spot.[/quote']

 

Hafner cannot be had. Im sorry to say that. The Guardians are not going to trade him under any circumstances.

[Mr Crunchy]

youk got off to a fabulous start

after the break he wilted and it was painful to watch

he is a good ball player,played better d than i thought he would too

hes ok

not great

never will be either but i dont think he disappointed anyone

 

we need more power from our infield,no question about it

[BSN07]

soriano makes sense I think, put him at 2nd and we have a nice bat in the line up and his d isnt that bad.

[ksushi]

No, his D is that bad, but I think I'd entertain signing Soriano if I were Theo.

[scaffolds]

The only way the Sox will sign Soriano would be if they trade Manny and hopefully it won't happened. Isn't that i don't like Soriano, because i like power production and speed, but because of the kind of salary that he will demand in addition to average defense (at best) in second base, in won't take place.

[Bosoxwest]

I don't see any way Soriano's eventual contract brings back value in the AL East. His career season last year had all the earmarks of being generated by the lower quality NL pitching. More walks, way more Ks, and an absurdly high jump in SecA (nearly 100 points) screams "I'm still a free swinger, I'm just seeing a lot more mistakes". Plus, the career low Steal % indicates the speed is declining (as you'd assume it would) and a lot of his $$ value will be tied into that at the negotiating table. It's not that he isn't a good player, I just think he'll get a terrible contract.

[BSN07]

Ya but theres risk's with everyone, and RFK stadium is doom to a batter I've been there its horrible but he still managed decent numbers with really no geniuine batter to protect him, but either 2b or ss has to be productive at the plate, and the best ss FA is Lugo and I think he is overrated he fell apart down the stretch for the dodgers, lorretta or belliard are ok could go with one of them or let Pedroia take over, but if u have Pedroia and gonzo up the middle yourr lineup might be hurting, cf and rf need thinking of to, coco might be a good player but maybe not in Boston or he could be good if he gets healthy and off to a better start, what does everyone think of the outfield situation? Just some thought.

[Gom]

Bosox nation, when I read your posts, I swear I'm listening to one of my girlfriends. You go on and on and on and there is no punctuation at all and I don't know know when one idea or thought ends and another one begins with french fries and ice cream and I bought these new shoes and don't they look cute and do you have to watch the game all the time especially when im trying to talk to you and dont forget we have dinner at my parents on sunday at eight and blahblahblahblahblahblah..................................

 

ROFL!

[example1]

This is an important bit of info that I think often gets overlooked. Bosoxwest brought it up in another thread and it warrants mentioning here. Youkilis' OBP' date=' while good in comparison to the league, was only 9th among qualified 1B. Good, but not amazing. Couple it with being 22nd in SLG, and he ended up in 19th in OPS. Ho hum.[/quote']

 

Yeah, its a fine point. But Youkilis has played 1B for ONE YEAR. He learned a new position this season, actually two. If he were a 3B he would have an OPS roughly equivalent to Mike Lowell's this season, his first in the league.

 

Am I advocating that Youk move to 3rd? NO!! I'm advocating we go get god-damn Aramis Ramirez, move f***ing Mike Lowell (who makes 9 million a year) and keep Youkilis at 1B where he actually showed a lot of defensive skill. Yes, he's not tremendous in OBP or OPS at 1B, but he's at least average at 3B. Aramis Ramirez had an OPS similar to Carlos Delgado, who is a first baseman.

 

I understand the idea of needing offensive value from certain positions. Its not that complicated. I just don't know why I hear "deal Youkilis, then let Lowell's contract run out next year". Who is going to replace these guys? After next year we'll have "mystery first baseman" and "mystery 3B". Just get Aramis to hit 5th, keep Youkilis for 4 years as your first baseman and then focus on what this team should focus on: pitching and finding the next catcher.

 

Unless they can move him in part of a nice deal for top pitching of batting, Youkils stays.

[schillingouttheks]

Bosox nation, when I read your posts, I swear I'm listening to one of my girlfriends. You go on and on and on and there is no punctuation at all and I don't know know when one idea or thought ends and another one begins with french fries and ice cream and I bought these new shoes and don't they look cute and do you have to watch the game all the time especially when im trying to talk to you and dont forget we have dinner at my parents on sunday at eight and blahblahblahblahblahblah..................................

 

ROFL!

OMG LYKE TOttAlLY hiLARIOUS GUYZ! ROFL ROFL ROFL!!!!1111ONEONE

 

I PWN n00bz!

 

[BSN07]

Sorry guys I will try to make a more conscious effort about the way I write. I do apologize tho. I'm used to wiriting on cbssportsline.com and it's a mad house there

[BSN07]

And I know I jump from topic to topic, I have the attention span of a fish, sorry I just start typing and I try to get all my ideas in without writing a novel but thanks for setting me straight and i'll try harder. And if it remains bad then just skip my post's I won't mind. And gom you said one of your girlfriends? More then one? kudos for you.

[seabeachfred]

I have talked in other threads that while Kevin Youkulis has value to the Red Sox mostly as an utility player he isn't the production hitter that the Sox needs at first base. So the question is who should be the Sox first baseman in 2007? Its well know that the 07 free agent market its very light and the only free agent possibility is Carlos Lee' date=' but Lee might be too expensive and there should be a lot of competetion for his services. Which means the Sox may have to trade for a first baseman, but Who? Mike Sweeney has been an All Star before, but at 35 yrs his skills has decline some, has had health issues lately and its very expensive, Ben Brousard or Shea Hillenbrand could be, but there are some question about them. The best answer is Xavier Nady a 28yrs who in 2006 played for the Mets and Pirates and in 430 AB hit for 280 ave 28 doubles and 17 HR 337 OBP and 453 SLG, in addition Nady salary in 06 was $427, 000 which means he will not be expensive, one final note Fenway is the type of park that can Xavier Nady an All Star.[/quote']

 

Scaffolds, been away from this board for two weeks and dealing mainly with Dirt Dogs and the Red Sox forums, but I'm told there have been some good suggestions thrown out here. Nady is mainly an outfielder, and though I kind of like the guy, he would be better for me as our rightfielder in either a platoon situation or starter. I just have absolutely no confidence that Pena can play the outfield and hit in the clutch. As for Youk, remember, this season was only his first as a full time regular and he will get better because he is a hard worker, has great determination and a year under his belt. I think we have to concern ourselves with finding another power hitter, and an offensive upgrade at SS. Then there is the question if Crisp and Varitek are going to make comebacks. At least Youk is of known quality and I think he can go from 13 to 18 homers next season. That would be ok if we could get 20-25 from Lowell, about 20 from Tek, 15 from Crisp and our two big guns hitting over 40. I think that No. 5 hitter, whoever he is, is a key to our lineup. :D :D

[seabeachfred]

Who cares how much Sweeney has left on his contract. He is a DH now. He can't play first and is always injured. I would stay away from him.

 

Jsing, two or three years ago I would have done handstands if we could have gotten Sweeney, but the guy is a walking MASH unit and, frankly, I've had my fill of injured Red Sox players the past season. If we can get a consistent fifth hitter in the lineup, we could accept Youk with his 15-18 homers, especially if he can hit close to 300 and drive in about 80 runs. Remember he got tired at the end of the season and one reason could be it was the first time he had played as a regular in Boston and the pressure and wear and tear could have taken its toll physically and mentally. He will be better next year I believe. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[scaffolds]

Seabeach, Nady was mainly a third baseman in college and most scouts projected his best position as a pro would had been first base. The Padres moved Nady to the OF because first base wasn't open and they wanted his bat in their line up, so i disagree in your believe that he is more of an OF than a first baseman. i have talk enough about Youkilis and his play and how he will hurt the Sox if he would be a regular in the line up.

 

A name that a poster (sorry don't remember who it was) posted about and makes good sense is Jeff Bagwell. Assuming that he is healthy enough, Bagwell who will be 39 yrs in May 07 and may have a couple year left on him and if he does Fenway will be a great park for him and be the first baseman that the Red Sox so badly needs.

[SuperManny]

Bagwell? As a non roster invitee yes, otherwise no thanks. He didn't even play baseball this year and in 2005 had exactly 100 AB's for a .738 OPS. The guy is going to be 39 next season and I don't think you could count on him for anything at this point. He wouldn't be a bad guy to have on the bench if he's healthy but if he's starting for the Sox then something went horribly wrong in the offseason.

[seabeachfred]

Seabeach, Nady was mainly a third baseman in college and most scouts projected his best position as a pro would had been first base. The Padres moved Nady to the OF because first base wasn't open and they wanted his bat in their line up, so i disagree in your believe that he is more of an OF than a first baseman. i have talk enough about Youkilis and his play and how he will hurt the Sox if he would be a regular in the line up.

 

A name that a poster (sorry don't remember who it was) posted about and makes good sense is Jeff Bagwell. Assuming that he is healthy enough, Bagwell who will be 39 yrs in May 07 and may have a couple year left on him and if he does Fenway will be a great park for him and be the first baseman that the Red Sox so badly needs.

 

Didn't know Nady was a college third baseman; that could change my thinking somewhat. Bagwell? A few years ago I would have done handstands if we could have gotten him but right now? Are we even sure he is healthy? To me that's the key. I'll throw out another name you never thought of. Ryan Klesko. He sat out all of last year except for one full game and one pinch hitting appearance, yet he went 4 for 5 with a homer and double. He might be a real sleeper for us and wouldn't cost us hardly anything. Well, this is the hot stove league talksox version. All the ideas thrown out on the table.