The Great Debate: Is Paps our closer in '07?

[DirtDog]

It is obvious that the guy is human. He has looked shaky lately, but he will definatly bounce back. He did not give up a hit to Baltimore on the 13th, even though he let two runners score (not to the help of Alex Cora). But would you consider moving him into the rotation next year? We are obviously thin up there. Beckett and Lester should improve, but lately those guys seem like a mixed bag.

 

Heres the big question. Will this weaken the bullpen too much? I've thought about this a lot and I say it will. We have seen that it is very rare to go out and get middle relief and even closer talent in the free agent market and find that they will be successful. IE. The latin double uglies, alan embree, bob howry, foulke (even tho he was terrific one year). The one exception has been Timlin. Seems there is a 25% chance that a reliever can flawlessly make a transition onto a new team and accept a new role.

 

That being said, Papelbon should stay in the closer role. Hansen hasn't shown he can consistantly pitch on the major league level. He's shown he can do it, even dominate, but he might be another year away from really solidifying any kind of weakness. If I'm not mistaken, Timlin is probably gone and there is now a huge void out there. I like how solid MDC has been for us, and he will probably take over as the main set up guy. The best approach I think we should take is to go out and sign a FA starting pitcher such as a Zito. Does anyone else know who will be avaiable in the market this winter? That would be the best way to help the team for next year... I think think Papelbon will be a good starter in the future and would contribute more solid innings (200 IP, as opposed to 75 IP).

[jacksonianmarch]

This is a great debate, solid work dirtdog. I disagree about having the shaky part playing into it at all, over the whole body of work this guy has been a bullpen hoss. Now, what the sox should do is use this as a flexibility point. If the sox can fill out their rotation with a solid pitcher, then paps doesnt have to move at all. If the sox can find a solid closer better than they can add another starter, then he moves. Overall, it should be based on who is available and not on how best to use him.

[noonanberg]

i say paps becomes our Mariano. i know he'd be a valuable arm in the rotation, too, but truly great closers are hard to come by, and i think papelbon could be one. hansen, even when he gets his act together, wont be a lights out closer IMO. you can get starters easily enough via free agency, closers are harder to come by. i say make paps the closer.

[Beckett95]

I think we should move him into the rotation next year and let hansen/delcarmen get a shot at the closer role. I know hansen's struggled this year, but his had some really bad luck also. Alot of hits off him have been bloops on good pitches. Id also sign someone like Fransisco Cordero to be the setup man/closer along with Hansen and Delcarmen.

 

Id rather sign Cordero than sign a guy like Zito to a huge contract.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think we should move him into the rotation next year and let hansen/delcarmen get a shot at the closer role. I know hansen's struggled this year, but his had some really bad luck also. Alot of hits off him have been bloops on good pitches. Id also sign someone like Fransisco Cordero to be the setup man/closer along with Hansen and Delcarmen.

 

Id rather sign Cordero than sign a guy like Zito to a huge contract.

 

If you sign Cordero it would be for the closer's job. Do you know how absolutely brutal it would be to hand over the job to either Hansen or Delcarmen? Very brutal. Cordero would be a good fit, but he would need to be guaranteed the closer's job. That would move DelCarmen and Hansen into setup roles and get them ready to ascend to closer in another few yrs. Putting either of those 2 there next yr would be akin to this yrs Guardians. Great lineup, good rotation, horrible pen = 25 games out in the middle of august.

[Beckett95]

If you sign Cordero it would be for the closer's job. Do you know how absolutely brutal it would be to hand over the job to either Hansen or Delcarmen? Very brutal. Cordero would be a good fit, but he would need to be guaranteed the closer's job. That would move DelCarmen and Hansen into setup roles and get them ready to ascend to closer in another few yrs. Putting either of those 2 there next yr would be akin to this yrs Guardians. Great lineup, good rotation, horrible pen = 25 games out in the middle of august.

 

Ya but the Guardians dont have a rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Lester, Papelbon and Wakefield, which is what i would guess the rotation would be next year if Paps started.

 

Hansen could be this years Fausto Carmona or last years Huston Street. I would start the season with Cordero as the closer and if he sucked, i wouldnt hesitate to move Hansen into that role.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ya but the Guardians dont have a rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Lester, Papelbon and Wakefield, which is what i would guess the rotation would be next year if Paps started.

 

Hansen could be this years Fausto Carmona or last years Huston Street. I would start the season with Cordero as the closer and if he sucked, i wouldnt hesitate to move Hansen into that role.

 

The Guardians rotation is pretty nice with Sabathia, Byrd, Lee, Westbrook, and Sowers. As a matter of fact, the indian's starters have an era that is 4th in the AL, 0.45 runs per 9 lower than the sox starters who are 10th at 4.91.

[yeszir]

I think either way its win/win. Papelbon was our best pitching prospect as a starter, and I have no doubt that he would succeed as one. Hansen will be a beast as a closer. He's only 23 and with work I think he can be as dominating as Papelbon in the closer position.

 

All in all its a good dilemma to have.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think either way its win/win. Papelbon was our best pitching prospect as a starter, and I have no doubt that he would succeed as one. Hansen will be a beast as a closer. He's only 23 and with work I think he can be as dominating as Papelbon in the closer position.

 

All in all its a good dilemma to have.

 

right, but how do you bridge the gap to Hansen seeing as he will take at least another year to ready himself to be a closer.

[yeszir]

right, but how do you bridge the gap to Hansen seeing as he will take at least another year to ready himself to be a closer.

Where's Rich Garces when you need him? :dunno:

[jacksonianmarch]

Where's Rich Garces when you need him? :dunno:

 

Eating a small latin american country.

[Jon_Papelboner]

I doubt he will be as good as a starter. I remember him making a few starts before he closed and I don't remember him being anything special. So I'll say yes.

[kreinbihl34]

How about moving Paps in the starting role and offering Gagne a one year contract heavily on preformance and add on an option year.

[DirtDog]

How about moving Paps in the starting role and offering Gagne a one year contract heavily on preformance and add on an option year.

Why don't we sign Bret Saberhagen and Jeff Fassero while we're at it?

[jacksonianmarch]

On second look at his stats as a starter, Papelboner is actually right. He walked 10 in 16 innings in 3 starts. As a closer this yr he has only walked 12 in 60IP. Interesting.

[CrespoBlows]

Why don't we sign Bret Saberhagen and Jeff Fassero while we're at it?

 

What?

 

When healthy, Gagne has the ability to dominate. This is a good low risk/high reward contract.

[jacksonianmarch]

What?

 

When healthy, Gagne has the ability to dominate. This is a good low risk/high reward contract.

 

Not anymore. Did you see him this year before he ended his season. He was maxing out at 91mph instead of his 98. He is a guy who should be counted on like the yankees are counting on Dotel. If he comes back effectively, great, if not don't rely on him returning to form.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

What?

 

When healthy, Gagne has the ability to dominate. This is a good low risk/high reward contract.

 

Not many teams have the luxury of affording Eric Gagne based on his injury history. If healthy you won't find a better closer in the game. Every pitch he throws can be thrown for strikes with nasty movement and excellent velocity. It's worth the gamble if you ask me.

 

As far as the debate...move Papelbon to the rotation next season and see what happens. A player has a better chance of moving from starter to the bullpen where it doesn't work the other way.

 

I don't have an answer with who should be our closer. The Red Sox could look for a trade, a free agent signing, or take a gamble with Delcarmen or Hansen.

[ORS]

I doubt he will be as good as a starter. I remember him making a few starts before he closed and I don't remember him being anything special. So I'll say yes.

It's not hard to look the stats up, and I seriously doubt you watched the games. In three starts he posted 2.25 ERA as a starter. Small sample size for sure, but that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

On second look at his stats as a starter, Papelboner is actually right. He walked 10 in 16 innings in 3 starts. As a closer this yr he has only walked 12 in 60IP. Interesting.

He walked at a higher rate as a reliever last year, but got better as the playoffs approached. I think he needed to get comfortable, and once he got confident the catcher's mitt started moving less to receive the ball. There's no reason to think he would all of sudden lose control as a starter now.

 

I think a good SP is more valuable than a very good RP, and I think the Sox would be a little remiss if they didn't at least try him out as a SP for a year. Like SITN said, if it doesn't work, he can always go back to the bull pen.

[MC Hammer]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

If you have the best closer in the game why wouldn't you let him close?

[jacksonianmarch]

It's not hard to look the stats up, and I seriously doubt you watched the games. In three starts he posted 2.25 ERA as a starter. Small sample size for sure, but that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

 

He walked at a higher rate as a reliever last year, but got better as the playoffs approached. I think he needed to get comfortable, and once he got confident the catcher's mitt started moving less to receive the ball. There's no reason to think he would all of sudden lose control as a starter now.

 

I think a good SP is more valuable than a very good RP, and I think the Sox would be a little remiss if they didn't at least try him out as a SP for a year. Like SITN said, if it doesn't work, he can always go back to the bull pen.

 

 

True, I do believe that a good starter is more valuable, unless you trade a lights out closer for a horrible closer. If you can move Paps into the rotation and have a guy like Cordero to plug in, then do it. If you are going to move Paps into the rotation, and Hansen is the best you have, then you are awaiting disaster.

[ksushi]

The answer is yes. We let damon go and have salary space because of it, same with pedro and I believe E-rent is totally off the books next year, Nixon is going to walk, Loretta is going to walk. With all this salary space and with players coming in behind the guys walking at the end of this season (pedroia and wily mo) those holes are taken care of automatically at a low cost. That leaves a lot of money left unspent.

 

Schilling Beckett Lester and Wakefield will be in the rotation next season. Clement, in my mind, figures to be out of the picture if the FO wants to compete again next season. With no legit closers hitting the market, or at least none with more value than the top three starters out there, and bobby abreu clogging up the yankees payroll next season the sox figure to be in on a starting pitcher. They better be. That means Papelbon stays a closer. The Sox can easily dish out a 5 year 55mil contract this offseason and its going to be for a starter. Theyll get max value, theyll leave Papelbon alone.

 

If they don't ill be very mad.

[CrespoBlows]

Not anymore. Did you see him this year before he ended his season. He was maxing out at 91mph instead of his 98. He is a guy who should be counted on like the yankees are counting on Dotel. If he comes back effectively, great, if not don't rely on him returning to form.

 

That curveball is still there. The guy can still get batters out. He's worth a Wade Miller like flyer.

 

You don't think it's suspicious that he promptly went on the DL after two innings? He still had arm problems. That's probably why his fastball dropped.

[ksushi]

Gagne is awful. I wouldn't touch him. The guy was a steroids user and now hes crumbling.

[CrespoBlows]

Gagne is awful. I wouldn't touch him. The guy was a steroids user and now hes crumbling.

 

And you have proof of this?

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I was actually thinking about the Yankees giving out a Dotel like deal to another right hander with good stuff. Kerry Wood?

[ksushi]

And you have proof of this?

 

Yes, i have gagne's urine sample here on my desk now. Of course I don;t have proof but it adds up very nicely. Go connect the dots. Steroids helps the resiliency of your arm a ton, it keeps you sharp day to day, it helps your velocity. Gagne had that amazing streak, its just as tained as the HR record to me. He comes back with a bunch of injuries and low velocity. He is missing his edge. He was a steroid user im pretty sure. When all these supposed big names come out of who used from this whole grimsely case, probably a few years down the road, Gagne will be one of those names.

[TheKilo]

Yes, i have gagne's urine sample here on my desk now. Of course I don;t have proof but it adds up very nicely. Go connect the dots. Steroids helps the resiliency of your arm a ton, it keeps you sharp day to day, it helps your velocity. Gagne had that amazing streak, its just as tained as the HR record to me. He comes back with a bunch of injuries and low velocity. He is missing his edge. He was a steroid user im pretty sure. When all these supposed big names come out of who used from this whole grimsely case, probably a few years down the road, Gagne will be one of those names.

 

 

SO will Trot Nixon.

[jacksonianmarch]

SO will Trot Nixon.

 

would you like to take the knife out of his back before or after you send him packing. The guy would give his lungs to win for the sox and he gets blackballed by the fans as he is close to departing.

[TheKilo]

would you like to take the knife out of his back before or after you send him packing. The guy would give his lungs to win for the sox and he gets blackballed by the fans as he is close to departing.

 

 

I wasn't being 100% serious, more making light of how quick people are to accuse people of steroid use.

 

Calm down, homie, I don't doubt Trot's will to win.