Pedro is 5 - 0 I'm eating my words...

[SuperManny]

of course

and how many of them are getting 54,000,000.00 for 4 years??

hes a 6 inning man,7 against pittburg and the cubs

despite all the money and glory he gets he still needs to rely on the chad bradfords of the world for a couple innings a nite to get W's and this may explain why his win totals arent all that impressive despite his Ks and decent era.

 

Instead of Pedro the Sox have had Clement and Wells fill in with a combined base salary of about what Pedro makes (and even more last year with Wells getting incentives). Here is the ERA+ of the three pitchers and innings pitched for each year:

 

Clement

2005 - 97 191 IP

2006 - 71 65 IP

 

Wells

2005 - 99 184 IP

2006 - 54 8.3 IP

 

Pedro

2005 - 146 217 IP

2006 - 128 101.7 IP

 

So the Sox have actually paid more $ so far and Wells and Clement provided a slighty below average 2005 and a terrible 2006 with less innings combined than Pedro. Manny is grossly overpaid and has been since day 1 but I wouldn't want to move him because he is still a top player in baseball, so is Pedro. I would rather overpay for superstars than overpay for mediocrity, but thats just me I guess.

[Mr Crunchy]

we also got more wins from wells and clement last season than pedro won in nyc and as you mentioned almost 400 innings pitched between the 2 of them.

combine that with the fact that clement was our#1 starter for the 1st half and wells our most consistant starter from memorial day on and i say we did ok with these 2 stiffs considering the injury to schilling and foulke and embrees collapse.

 

this season??

who knew clement would regress into carl pavano and shame on the front office for not dealing with

(1)wells age health and request to be traded

(2)clements miserable 2nd half and playoff efforts.

(3)dealing arroyo away for a 4th outfielder

 

that being said

we're only on the hook for 1 more season with clement,wells is done,even if he comes back hes gone at the end of the season

 

so come october the mets will owe martinez another 27-30M and we're on the hook for clement for 1 more year i believe??

 

im a martinez guy big time

i hold him in the same regards as ali,marvin hagler,orr etc..

however

hes not the man he once was,not remotley and as much as this deal has helped the mets and hurt us so far,theres still a big part of this contract that hasnt been played out yet

and the david wells saga hasnt ended.

 

he may indeed come back later in the season and give us some innings down the stretch from the left side and a shot in the arm for the pennant run.

[SuperManny]

so come october the mets will owe martinez another 27-30M and we're on the hook for clement for 1 more year i believe??

 

im a martinez guy big time

i hold him in the same regards as ali,marvin hagler,orr etc..

however

hes not the man he once was,not remotley and as much as this deal has helped the mets and hurt us so far,theres still a big part of this contract that hasnt been played out yet

and the david wells saga hasnt ended.

 

he may indeed come back later in the season and give us some innings down the stretch from the left side and a shot in the arm for the pennant run.

 

While the Mets will still be on the hook for half the contract, the Sox still owe Clement another year where he will most likely be craptastic again and then have to sign another FA pitcher which will cost money as well. I know its easy to say Pedro will cost $13.5 per year for two more years but Clement is going to cost $8.5 (using AAV) next year and the next year your still going to have to sign another FA. By the looks of the market with average pitchers getting 8-9M per year the cost of Pedro isn't that high.

 

I agree that Pedro isn't still the same Pedro from his prime but no pitcher in the history of baseball was either. Pedro now is still one of the better pitchers in baseball and even though he has risk he also has higher upside. If the Sox have Pedro last year they win the division and probably play the Angels instead of the ChiSox. Also if the Sox signed Pedro and not Wells or Clement last year Papelbon probably would have come up like Lester did this year.

 

BTW: I have no problem with dealing Arroyo for Pena, you want to talk about who knew scenerios. Pena is still younger than Paps and will take over in the OF once Trot leaves. Arroyo was also below average last year for the Sox. And when Coco was on the DL for about two months WMP was the starting CF (instead of Willie Harris). If Willie Harris is the starting CF for the Sox this year, even with Arroyo, the Sox don't have a 4 game lead on the division. WMP was a huge plus filling in for Coco and platooning with Trot before he was injured.

[Cocos Disciples]

Bad hip, forced him to miss Monday's start, apparenty it's bad enough for him to miss a few more. Pedro placed on the 15 day DL.

[Mr Crunchy]

Arroyo was also below average last year for the Sox. And when Coco was on the DL for about two months WMP was the starting CF (instead of Willie Harris). If Willie Harris is the starting CF for the Sox this year, even with Arroyo, the Sox don't have a 4 game lead on the division. WMP was a huge plus filling in for Coco and platooning with Trot before he was injured.

 

and in the meantime we waive white flags every 5th day

thats 20% of the season we go to war with the lenny dinardos and jj johnsons of the world or even kc's waiver wire cast aways

 

arroyo was cheap,he loved it here,he had a rubber arm and you could pencil him in for 15 wins a year

wily mo pena is a career underachiever with no plate discipline to speak of

sure hes 24 but hes been playing pro ball now 7 years

any ball hit his way is a disaster in the making but i will admit i do think that if he ever does develop some discipline at the plate that he'll hit 30-100-.300

and thats a maybe

 

what i thought stupid was having mohr and stern on the roster and not using them at all

obviously willy harris wasnt the answer and i thought the above 2 men deserved more of a chance to play rather than willy,who i dont think hit a ball out of the infield

 

in any case as it stands if we give wily mo 600abs and he shatters the record for Ks in a season

give arroyo 35 starts and he'll give you 15 wins and an era under 4.50 in the american league east.

seeing as though our #5 is yet to be determined i'd say smart money keeps the pitcher

[SuperManny]

Arroyo was also below average last year for the Sox. And and in the meantime we waive white flags every 5th day

thats 20% of the season we go to war with the lenny dinardos and jj johnsons of the world or even kc's waiver wire cast aways

 

arroyo was cheap,he loved it here,he had a rubber arm and you could pencil him in for 15 wins a year

wily mo pena is a career underachiever with no plate discipline to speak of

sure hes 24 but hes been playing pro ball now 7 years

any ball hit his way is a disaster in the making but i will admit i do think that if he ever does develop some discipline at the plate that he'll hit 30-100-.300

and thats a maybe

 

what i thought stupid was having mohr and stern on the roster and not using them at all

obviously willy harris wasnt the answer and i thought the above 2 men deserved more of a chance to play rather than willy,who i dont think hit a ball out of the infield

 

in any case as it stands if we give wily mo 600abs and he shatters the record for Ks in a season

give arroyo 35 starts and he'll give you 15 wins and an era under 4.50 in the american league east.

seeing as though our #5 is yet to be determined i'd say smart money keeps the pitcher

 

Wells gave the Sox 15 wins last season, if you can pitch 5 innings per game you should be able to get 15 wins out of 35 starts with the Sox offense. Clement in 12 starts had 5 wins with a 6.61 ERA. Extrapolate Clement's stats out for the season and he has 15 wins with a terrible ERA. Considering Pena had 26 HR's in 2004 in just 336 AB's I don't think 30 HR's is much of a stretch, and 40 HR's is more likely his peak. Pena is limited playing time this year put up .321/.370/.482 as it seems the team was trying to get him to hit more for contact than power. The fact he injured his wrist could have sapped some of his power this year as well.

 

The Sox couldn't have expected Paps to become the lights out closer, Wells to get injured, and Clement to get injured. Arroyo would have been in the bullpen this year before the injuries. At the time the deal made a lot of sense, obviously now with 2 SPers down and one converted to the closer the Sox could use another SP.

[yeszir]

Bad hip' date=' forced him to miss Monday's start, apparenty it's bad enough for him to miss a few more. Pedro placed on the 15 day DL.[/quote']

He fell down in the bathroom.

[Mr Crunchy]

The Sox couldn't have expected Paps to become the lights out closer, Wells to get injured, and Clement to get injured. Arroyo would have been in the bullpen this year before the injuries. At the time the deal made a lot of sense, obviously now with 2 SPers down and one converted to the closer the Sox could use another SP.

 

really??

then someone shouldve been fired cause stevie wonder saw this coming

wells had knee surgery in the off season and asked out of boston every chance he got

he was bloated,injured,disenchanted old and wanted out yet the front office counted on him??

clement sucked from the allstar game on,not just after he took the liner off the head

a 4 at best

foulke was awful and injured last season

it was evident to everyone who watched the radar gun he had nothing left in the tank

and this is with schilling coming off ankle surgery and josh beckett winning more than 9 games 1time in his career

 

you cant run a baseball team on hope and history and you never ever ever trade 200inning pitchers for a guy who will shatter the strike out record if given the chance

 

we had 100 guys like wily mo over the years

sam horn

phil plantier

larry parrish

tony armas

jack clark

dick stewart etc....all these guys hit for big time power but i still wouldnt give up a 35 game starter for any of them,especially in this day and age

[Cocos Disciples]

He fell down in the bathroom.

 

Yeah I just saw that and was like...wow...

[Mr Crunchy]

hows his

(1)shoulder

(2)hip

(3)inflammed and permanetly injured big toe??

 

this mans pitching clock is ticking

[a700hitter]

hows his

(1)shoulder

(2)hip

(3)inflammed and permanetly injured big toe??

 

this mans pitching clock is ticking

But while his clock is ticking he is a bigger tourist attraction than Big Ben.

[Mr Crunchy]

But while his clock is ticking he is a bigger tourist attraction than Big Ben.

 

 

agreed

the man is THE MAN and as far as im concerned he'd never have to pickup a dinner check in any resteraunt i was in for the rest of his life becuase he gave me that much pleasure over the years

of course if he sticks a 2 hit shut out up our ass in october i may have to revisit this mindset

[a700hitter]

Pedro looked shaky in the first inning tonight in his return to the mound. He gave up 4 runs on 4 hits, but in typical Pedro fashion he only gave up 1 more hit in his next 5 innings. He also retired the last 12 Braves that he faced. I miss Pedro. If he was still in the Sox rotation, the Sox would be favored to go all the way with a top 3 of Schilling, Beckett and Pedro. Losing Pedro may have actually cost us the Dynasty that so many members of these boards think is in our future. If we had Pedro starting game 1 of the ALDS instead of Clement, the whole post season could have been different. Let's face it, if you could get by the White Sox, you had a great chance of going all the way. I always think that when Pedro walked any chance of multiple Championships went with him.

[Mr Crunchy]

I saw him pitch friday

he couldnt break a pane of glass with his fast ball

 

a blind man couldve hit him

[SCM33]

we had 100 guys like wily mo over the years

sam horn

phil plantier

larry parrish

tony armas

jack clark

dick stewart etc....all these guys hit for big time power but i still wouldnt give up a 35 game starter for any of them,especially in this day and age

 

This is not a good comparison.

 

Wily Mo has already shown power at the big league level.

 

Sam Horn was not someone we traded for, neither was Plantier.

 

Parrish was 34 and was traded mid season to help secure the 88 pennant.

Tony Armas was a free agent signing.

Jack Clark was a free agent signing.

Dick Stewart was a free agent signing.

 

WMP is 24, and has already shown his power at the big league level.

 

A good comparison is another 25 or under type guy with big league success traded for a mediocre pitcher. The problem is, you wont find many of them because we stole him from the Reds.

 

If I were to make a comparison, it would be Richie Sexson for Wickman and Bere, or Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon, or Gary Sheffield for Ricky Bones, or Bobby Bonilla for Jose Deleon, or Palmeiro for Mitch Williams and Paul Kilgus, or Fernando Tatis for Todd Stottlemyre, or Jose Cruz Jr for Paul Spoljaric.

 

 

These are better examples of a 25 or under power hitting prospect with big league success being traded for mediocre/below average pitchers.

[a700hitter]

Pedro wins his 9th tonight against San Diego going 7 1/3 innings giving up 2 runs on 3 hits bringing his record to 9-4. His winning % this year has slipped to .692.

[ahhchon]

I saw him pitch friday

he couldnt break a pane of glass with his fast ball

 

a blind man couldve hit him

 

oh man, great info. i had no idea you needed a 95 mph heater to be successful in the bigs..

 

john

[a700hitter]

"Twighlight" Pedro suffered a strained calf warming up before tonights game and he got roughed up in the first inning. It was only slightly worse than Beckett's usual first inning.

[TheKilo]

"Twighlight" Pedro suffered a strained calf warming up before tonights game and he got roughed up in the first inning. It was only slightly worse than Beckett's usual first inning.

 

 

Methinks it was twice as bad...

 

6 runs is twice as many as three...

[jacksonianmarch]

Pedro left today's game with an injured pride and will be evaluated by trainers tomorrow. A pulled pride could keep him bitchy for the next few weeks so the situation will need to be monitored closely.

[a700hitter]

Pedro left today's game with an injured pride and will be evaluated by trainers tomorrow. A pulled pride could keep him bitchy for the next few weeks so the situation will need to be monitored closely.

At least he has some pride to get injured. Our #5 starters and about 3 guys in our pen have no pride and no shame.

[Teddyballgame10]

See how many times have I said it the 4th year would be a huge mistake.

[a700hitter]

See how many times have I said it the 4th year would be a huge mistake.

...or maybe they just have the luxury of pampering him through the regular season. They want him healthy for the post season.

[Teddyballgame10]

...or maybe they just have the luxury of pampering him through the regular season. They want him healthy for the post season.

 

Its possible. . .valid point but well see

[a700hitter]

This link has some interesting stats. From 2002 to today, Pedro is 3rd among pitchers in winning % behind only Halladay and Santana. He is also tied with Schilling for 2nd in # of wins during that period -- two wins behind Halladay. This is somewhat surprising to me since this is after Pedro's prime years from 1998-2000 and after his arm injury in 2001. It supports my opinion that he is still a very special pitcher.

[Mr Crunchy]

oh man, great info. i had no idea you needed a 95 mph heater to be successful in the bigs..

 

john

 

is this your retort??

have you seen his #s since he was 5-0 and this thread was created??

do you actually watch these games or do you read about them in the morning

i never miss a chance to watch him pitch

he WAS the most dominating athlete ive seen since marvin hagler retired

the key word is WAS

he is now very very beatable and has gotten his clock cleaned religiously since he went 5-0 out of the gate

 

95mph??

ha

i didnt see him hit 90 in his last 5 starts and now hes shelved again

sure

they may be resting him but i doubt it very much

hes hurting badly...very badly

he's gone 7 innings once since june...

once

and it was in sandiego

he hasnt pitched 30 total innings in 2 months

hows that for value??

as far as wins go

schilling and halliday were both hurt last season or we wouldnt be discussing this

 

he came out this season like a house of fire but has gone 7 innings twice since may ended

he had similiar problems in boston which would be magnified in the al east my friends

 

http://sportsline.com/mlb/players/player/gamelogs/2006/7855

 

i love the guy but hes done as a stopper

[a700hitter]

...or maybe they just have the luxury of pampering him through the regular season. They want him healthy for the post season.

Sorry that I left out the link. here it is:

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=153601

[a700hitter]

Pedro's second outing since the DL was much better. In 5 innings he gave up 3 runs on 4 hits and 1 walk while striking out 7. He's still has some time to tune up for the playoffs.

[jsinger121]

His ERA is over 4 for the year in the NL East no less.

[a700hitter]

His ERA is over 4 for the year in the NL East no less.

He lost one year to injury while with the Red Sox--- 2001. He's missed a lot of time this year, but he's got some time to get ready for the playoffs and that's what the Mets have been preparing him for. If he's ready, he' ll put up the zero's in the playoffs.