The Jeter Isn't Clutch Thread

[rician blast]

The following is from this month's ESPN magazine. Kind of goes with what many were saying in the "overrated players" thread regarding Jetesy:

 

 

 

 

CLUTCH IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR LUCK. LOOK AT CAPTAIN CLUTCH HIMSELF

 

Derek Jeter is not clutch.

 

This is meant as neither indictment nor blasphemy. It is explanatory, not accusatory. But it runs the risk of being dismissed as hating because Jeter is a cathedral, and worship tends to cloud fanatics, faith obstructing facts. So forgive me, for I am about to sin.

 

When it comes to Captain Clutch, the secondbest shortstop on his side of the Yankee infield, I'm an atheist. Jeter is a very good player. Don't misunderstand. Very good. But he has been lucky, too. Right place, right time. He wouldn't be viewed as a mystic winner if he had been exactly the same player, or even a better one, and come up with the Pirates. Never underestimate the importance of luck in the building of legends. Bill Belichick, for example, was Dave Wannstedt before stumbling upon Tom Brady in the sixth round.

 

A's GM Billy Beane, baseball's “smartest” man, is asked what one word he'd most like to associate with a player: leader, winner, heart, know-how, clutch, lucky.

 

“Lucky,” he says. “Because then people will attach those other things to him anyway.”

 

We love intangibles. They are the bedrock of all faiths, explanations for the inexplicable. This is how it is with worship. If you want to believe, your eyes will see the face of God in a cheese sandwich.

 

So it can't be that Jeter has been passenger as often as driver, fortunate enough to be one of the few constants during a decade on the postseason stage. It can't be that Jeter always seems to be around big moments because he has played 115 postseason games (more than Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Willie Mays combined). What chance does “sample size” have against “clutch” amid fanatics who prefer to believe in abstractions? You play 115 postseason games (more than Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro and Ted Williams combined) and, every once in a while, Jeffrey Maier is going to reach out and turn one of your outs into a home run. Miguel Tejada might make a famous flip to his catcher to save a series too if you gave him 95 more games of postseason chances than he's had. Jeter is great, just not great whenever he feels like it. But he's literally in a no-lose position now that we've erected the shield of clutch around him. And it doesn't much matter that he's had so much help that when he got hurt one Opening Day, the Yankees started 18-3 without him-the best start in the history of America's most fabled franchise.

 

Jeter gets credit for saving the Yankees with that flip to home plate but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. And think of the times he's been bailed out. His four-strikeout performance against the Twins in the 2004 playoffs was erased because “choker” Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yankees with a monster performance in the same game. And once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the rest of the Yankees past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBIs. Perception takes a bat to reality. Pretty good deal if you can get it. We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning run on base than Jeter did. Instead, we celebrate his eighthinning homer to beat the Royals earlier this month with tabloid headlines about clutchness even though, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs. Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason at-bats as Jeter: 462. In those at-bats,

Williams has six more homers, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBIs, two more runs and seven fewer strikeouts.

 

So why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard. Pressed to name the single most valuable intangible Jeter owns, Beane says, “He runs really hard every time to first base.” Beane knows that Jeter, although an exceptional player, doesn't “know how to win” or “raise his game.” In fact, Jeter is the same player in the postseason that he is in the regular season. Regular season: .314 batting average, .386 on-base percentage, .461 slugging percentage. Postseason: .307 batting average, .379 on-base percentage, .463 slugging percentage. Why? Because he has gotten to play virtually an entire regular-season's worth of postseason games. That isn't clutch. That's averages averaging out. But myth is more fun than math.

[Goalstopper]

so a big credible sources thinks the way we do. Nice

[See Red]

Well written article. He brought up some very good points, particularly the one about Bernie Williams.

[rician blast]

Well written article. He brought up some very good points, particularly the one about Bernie Williams.

 

what's surprising is that no Yankee fan has responded to dispute the numbers and say "you have to see him play every day, blah, blah, blah...intangibles, blah, blah, blah"

[He Hate Me]

because we've had this argument in the other thread already.

 

I'm not the type of guy who likes to repeat himself.

 

The media always does this anyway. They'll wait until someone is having a bad stretch (for Jeter, his fielding errors, Yankees not winning in 5 years) and then pounce on him. We're simply taking our lumps right now because quite frankly we're not that good a club right now. If Schilling has another bad start, there will be articles suggesting he focus more on baseball and less on talking to the media. That's how the media plays these things.

[Sky]

with the tight competition in the east, every good player/pitching ace/team is bound to have problems. Its a 3 team race unlike almost every other division in the majors

[rician blast]

because we've had this argument in the other thread already.

 

I'm not the type of guy who likes to repeat himself.

 

The media always does this anyway. They'll wait until someone is having a bad stretch (for Jeter, his fielding errors, Yankees not winning in 5 years) and then pounce on him. We're simply taking our lumps right now because quite frankly we're not that good a club right now. If Schilling has another bad start, there will be articles suggesting he focus more on baseball and less on talking to the media. That's how the media plays these things.

 

again, totally missing the point...its not about E's or the Yanks not winning it all despite their ridiculous payroll. Its about the characterization of a player being clutch when he is clearly not.

 

How you make the leap to Schilling and his foucs is pretty funny, though.

[TheRivernator]

I find it funny how the author decided to pull the line about Tejada making the same play as Jeter in the 2001 playoffs. Garbage, totally garbage. Tejada would have been at SS watching the throw sail in off line and late. Overall, though, the guy fails to really go into depth. He does make great points about how Jeter has averaged over the span of postseason successes and failures, but he fails to basically mention games where Jeter has had immense impact when he had the chance. Also, what he doesnt take into account is that Jeter is averaging his career average in the postseason, where you are efectively facing the best of the best team wise and pitching wise, so he isnt getting cheapies.

[Dana Kiecker]

Wow thats an awesome article..

[a700hitter]

I find it amusing that the Prima Dona is so celebrated for the "Flip" and the 2004 catch against the Red Sox. How do these catches stand up against the Willie Mays or Ron Swoboda catches? Those catches were part of World Championships. Neither of Jeter's catches were part of World Series, and in 2004 the Sox won it all for the first time in 86 years, so what is all the hub bub about. Yankee fans and the media have to put this guy and his accomplishments in some perspective. His two plays are just not "all that," and they don't deserve to stand the test of time like Mays' and Swoboda's catch.

[26 to 6]

I find it amusing that the Prima Dona is so celebrated for the "Flip" and the 2004 catch against the Red Sox. How do these catches stand up against the Willie Mays or Ron Swoboda catches? Those catches were part of World Championships. Neither of Jeter's catches were part of World Series, and in 2004 the Sox won it all for the first time in 86 years, so what is all the hub bub about. Yankee fans and the media have to put this guy and his accomplishments in some perspective. His two plays are just not "all that," and they don't deserve to stand the test of time like Mays' and Swoboda's catch.

His flip play in 2001 definately should be remembered. We were down 2 games to none in a best of 5 series. If he doesnt make that play we might lose.

 

 

 

And I didnt read the entire thread, but just by the title of this thread, why donet you ask BK Kim and Keith Foulke (among many oother pitchers) if Jeter is clutch. I wonder what they say.

 

And as for the PD/Prima Donna s***, Jeter is NOT a prima donna. He doesnt do anything to stand out. He shows no signs of selfishness or anything like that (although I know you'd dispute that by him not "volunteering" to move when we got A-Rod. But i'm sorry, but the guy was there for 8 years at that point and had won 4 championships, he has the right to want to stay at shortstop). You want a prima donna? Manny Ramirez. He's 38473845838457385763674873 times the prima donna that Derek Jeter is.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Jeter just got owned.

[Dana Kiecker]

Umm just in case you want to talk clutch... Jetes went 4 for 20 over games 4,5,6,7 in 2004ALCS...

 

The biggest s*** the bed extraveganza since New Coke..

 

 

He took the pipe.

 

Arods Bettah!!! Clap clappy clap!~!

[empirestrikesback26]

It's coming from ESPN. Give me something from someone a tad bit unbiased and maybe I'd consider reading it.

[empirestrikesback26]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.

[a700hitter]

His flip play in 2001 definately should be remembered. We were down 2 games to none in a best of 5 series. If he doesnt make that play we might lose.

 

 

 

And I didnt read the entire thread, but just by the title of this thread, why donet you ask BK Kim and Keith Foulke (among many oother pitchers) if Jeter is clutch. I wonder what they say.

 

And as for the PD/Prima Donna s***, Jeter is NOT a prima donna. He doesnt do anything to stand out. He shows no signs of selfishness or anything like that (although I know you'd dispute that by him not "volunteering" to move when we got A-Rod. But i'm sorry, but the guy was there for 8 years at that point and had won 4 championships, he has the right to want to stay at shortstop). You want a prima donna? Manny Ramirez. He's 38473845838457385763674873 times the prima donna that Derek Jeter is.

The difference is that neither Red Sox fans nor the media celebrate Manny as the icon that Prima Donna is celebrated. Manny is an insane hitter and his numbers will overwhelmingly sweep him into the HOF. PD going to the HOF will depend on the strength of this bogus "Captain Intangibles" crap. The heart of the last Yankees dynasty is gone. It was the strong pitching not the Prima Dona SS.

 

BTW The Yankeew didn't wint the Championship in 2001 either, so who cares about it.

[Dana Kiecker]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.

__________________

__________________

 

Why dont you go piss up a Yankees fan site then?

 

You're so f***in smart and you think your team has got it?

 

 

Then leave us the f*** alone and go somewhere else and suffer.

 

 

You Yankee Trolls are like Tics man... the wetter it gets the more you spring up..

 

 

Blah.

[empirestrikesback26]

I wasn't complaining about anything, I was saying what I believe to be true which goes against this article.

[TheRivernator]

I find it funny how the author decided to pull the line about Tejada making the same play as Jeter in the 2001 playoffs. Garbage, totally garbage. Tejada would have been at SS watching the throw sail in off line and late. Overall, though, the guy fails to really go into depth. He does make great points about how Jeter has averaged over the span of postseason successes and failures, but he fails to basically mention games where Jeter has had immense impact when he had the chance. Also, what he doesnt take into account is that Jeter is averaging his career average in the postseason, where you are efectively facing the best of the best team wise and pitching wise, so he isnt getting cheapies.

 

 

I'll give you a game by game workup of what Jeter has done in his postseason career and you be the judge of his clutch value

10/2/1996 Yankees vs Rangers 12th inning in Yankee stadium, Jeter leads off with single and eventually scores the winning run.

10/4/1996 Yankees vs Rangers, 9th inning, Rangers lead 2-1. Jeter leads off with a single, hustles to third on Raines' single. He scored the tying run, Yankees won 3-2

10/9/1996 Yankees vs Orioles. 8th inning, Jeter hits game tying HR in the Jeffrey Maier game

10/11/1996 Yankees vs Orioles. 8th inning, Orioles lead 2-1. Jeter hits a 2 out double sparking a 4 run rally, yankees win 5-2

10/22/1996 Yankees vs Braves 8th inning, Yankees lead 2-1. Jeter leads off with a single and scores what ends up being the winning run as the yankees win 5-2

10/23/1996 Yankees vs Braves 6th inning, yankees down 6-0, Jeter leads off with a single and sparks a 3 run rally. Leyritz hits the game tying HR in the 8th. In the 10th inning of that game, Jeter singled to extend the inning and eventually scored the 8th run, yankees win 8-6 in 10

10/26/1996 Yankees vs Braves 3rd inning. Jeter with an RBI single to give the yankees a lead. He steals second and scores on a single barely beating the throw on a great slide. Yankees won the game 3-2 and won the WS.

He was the rally starter in 7 of the 11 wins in the 96 postseason

 

9/30/1997 Yankees vs Cleveland 6th inning. Game tied 6-6. Jeter hits the eventual game winning HR, yankees win 8-6

Yankees lose series 3-2 to cleveland

 

10/6/1998 Yankees vs Cleveland 1st inning. Knobby and Jeter lead the game off with back to back singles sparking a 5 run 1st and the yankees never look backand win 7-2

10/13/1998 Yankees vs Cleveland Jeter singles with one out in the 1st inning and sparks a 2 run first inning, yankees lead 2-0. 6th inning, yankees lead 6-5. Jeter hits a 2 run triple and later scores, effectively putting the game out of reach, yankees eliminate the Guardians 9-5

10/17/1998 Yankees vs Padres, 7th inning game tied 5-5. Jeter singles and eventually scored the go ahead run. Yankees go on to win game 1 of the WS

10/18/1998 Yankees vs Padres. Derek Jeter singles home Chuck Knoblauch in the 2nd inning for the 4th run of the game, which was the eventual game winner

10/21/1998 Yankees vs Padres. 0-0 in the 6th inning. Jeter singles and scores the eventual game winner as the yankees win the world series.

 

10/5/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Up 1-0, Jeter sparks a 2 run rally in the 5th with a single and starts a 4 run rally in the 6th with a walk as the yankees defeat the Rangers in game 1 of the ALDS

10/6/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Up 2-1 in the 8th inning, Jeter singles and scores an important insurance run to put the game away.

10/9/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Jeter hits a one out triple in the 1st inning sparking a 3 run rally. The yankees win 3-0 and sweep the rangers

10/13/1999 Yankees vs Red Sox. Red sox lead 3-2 in the 7th inning, when Jeter hits the game tying RBI single off Derek Lowe. Yankees won in the 10th.

10/17/1999 Yankees vs Red Sox. Yankees up 3-2 in the 9th inning. Knobby and Jeter hit back to back 1 out singles sparking a 6 run rally to put the game away.

Yankees win series 4-1

10/23/1999 Yankees vs Braves 8th inning, Braves lead 1-0. Jeter hits the game tying single and eventually scores as the yankees win.

10/24/1999 Yankees vs Braves. Knobby and Jeter lead the game off with back to back singles and spark a 3 run rally and the yankees never looked back.

10/27/1999 Yankees vs Braves. 3rd inning 0-0. Knobby and Jeter hit back to back singles and score in a 3 run inning. Yankees win 4-1 and sweep the world series

 

10/6/2000 Yankees vs A's. Down 1-0 in the 3rd, Jeter hits a go ahead 2 run single with his only hit of the game. Yankees went on to win

10/8/2000 Yankees vs A's. Jeter sparks 6 run rally with a walk and yankees win 7-5

10/11/2000 Yankees vs M's. 8th inning, Jeter hits 2 run homer during a Yankee 7 run rally to win the game 7-1.

10/14/2000 Yankees vs M's. 5th inning 0-0 game, Derek Jeter hits go ahead 3 run homer with his only hit of the game. Walks to lead off an 8th inning 2 run rally to put the game out of reach

10/17/2000 Yankees vs M's. 7th inning, yankees down 4-3, Jeter keeps an inning alive with a single to move Vizcaino to 3rd base. Jeter eventually scores the game winning run as the yankees win the series in 6

10/21/2000 Yankees vs Mets 6th inning, 0-0 game, Jeter walks to spark 2 run inning, yankees end up winning the game in extras...

10/22/2000 Yankees vs Mets 8th inning, Jeter hits a double and eventually scores the game winning run, yankees win 6-5...

10/24/2000 Yankees vs Mets 3rd inning, Jeter scores game tying run after singling. Yankees end up losing 4-2.

10/25/2000 Yankees vs Mets Jeter leads off game with HR. He also hits a triple in the 3rd inning and scored the eventual game winning run, yankees won 3-2.

10/26/2000 Yankees vs Mets. Yankees down 2-1 in the 6th inning and Jeter hits a game tying solo homer. Yankees win the series on a sojo single and Jeter had a 14 game world series hit streak to this point.

Jeter was the WS MVP

10/13/2001 Yankees vs A's. THE PLAY, is all I have to say. Yankees down 2-0 in the series and Yankees up 1-0 in the game in the 7th inning and Jeter makes a ranging, out of position flip to Posada on a relay from an errant throw. Posada tagged Jeremy Giambi out at home barly with what would have been the game tying run. Yankees win 1-0

10/14/2001 Yankees vs A's. Jeter leads the 3rd inning off with a single and scores the eventual game winning run on his only hit of the game

10/15/2001 Yankees vs A's. Jeter drives in eventual game winning run on a sac fly. Yankees win 5-3

10/22/2001. Yankees vs M's, 0-0, 3rd inning, Jeter gets Yankees on the board with a sac fly and the yankees never looked back

10/31/2001. Yankees vs DBacks. Bot 10th, Jeter hits walkoff HR against BH Kim, yankees win 4-3

11/4/2001. Yankees vs DBacks, game 7. 7th inning, DBacks up 1-0. Jeter leads off wth a single and scores the tying run in his only hit of the game. Memory has erased what happened in that 9th inning....

 

10/1/2002. Yankees vs Angels. Jeter leads off the 4th inning with a walk and scores the go ahead run. Same game, 8th inning, Jeter walks and scores winning run in the only game the yankees won in the 2002 postseason

 

10/9/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter singles with only hit of the game and scores the eventual game winning run.

10/11/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter homers to tie the game in the 3rd inning.

10/13/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter doubles in a run to tie the game at 1 in the 5th inning. The red sox go on to win the game

10/16/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox game 7. In Jeter's only hit of the game off Pedro in the yankee 8th, he hit a one out double to spark a 3 run game tying rally. We all know how it ended.

10/21/2003 Yankees vs Marlins. Jeter scores 3 runs, game-tying run in the 4th after a one out double, the winning run in the 8th after a 1 out double, and an insurance run in the 9th after a HBP, yankees won 6-1.

10/23/2003 Yankees vs Marlins 9th inning. Down 6-3, Jeter hits a single with 0 outs and scores in a rally that is eventually thwarted by Urbina.

10/6/2004 Yankees vs Twins Jeter hits game tying HR in 1st inning. He also walked in the bottom of the 12th inning with the yankees down a run and eventually scored the game winning run on a line drive by Matsui that was thrown home, but Jeter beat the throw with a great slide to win the game

10/18/2004 Yankees vs Red Sox Jeter hits 3 run double in the top of the 6th inning in a 2-1 ball game off Pedro Martinez, it was his only hit of the game as he went 1 for 7 and the yankees lost in extras.

10/19/2004 Yankees vs Red Sox Yankees down 3, Jeter hits an RBI single setting up the arod bitch slap play which essentially ends the rally.

10/7/2005 Yankees vs Angels Jeter's RBI single and subsequent run scored spark a 4 run yankee inning bringing the game from 5-0 to 5-4. The yankees would take the lead in this game, but eventually lose.

10/9/2005 Yankees vs Angels. Tie game, 7th inning, Jeter hits a go-ahead and eventually the game winning groundout in an 0-4 performance, but the yankees won 3-2.

10/10/2005 Yankees vs Angels. Jeter hits sac fly in 2nd inning to put yankees ahead 2-0. He homers in the 7th inning to close the gap to 5-3 and he leads off the 9th with a single with the yankees down by 2. A-choke comes up next and GIDP and the rest is history....

[ORS]

10/26/1996 Yankees vs Braves 3rd inning. Jeter with an RBI single to give the yankees a lead. He steals second and scores on a single barely beating the throw on a great slide. Yankees won the game 3-2 and won the WS.

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

 

Wow, maybe Riv just thought we'd be impressed by the length of the post.

[a700hitter]

Nice long post from Riv., but out of the entire list I remember maybe one or two, and I am an insane obsessed baseball fan. There is nothing extraordinary on the list. The ones that I remember were not part of winning a World Series. A clutch player steps it up to a new level in big games. The fact is that PD's stats for post-season are just about the same as his regular season performance. He doesn't step it up to a new level.

[26 to 6]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.

PRetty much. Some anti-Yankee faggot on ESPN isnt going to tell me that what my eyes have seen for years is a lie.

[26 to 6]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

Well hey, if he doesnt do that maybe we dont win the game. Clutch isnt defined as coming through in the late innings, its coming through when your team needs it.

 

 

 

Good post Riv, thanks for that one.

Also, I love how none of them had an intelligent response.

[MC Hammer]

You guys are HILARIOUS!

 

"I DON'T CARE WHAT NUMBERS SAY ... I KNOW WHAT I SAW!!!"

 

I honestly don't understand how someone can look at numbers that are clearly printed infront of them, and say that they don't believe it. You sound like old men. This guy gave you facts ... he gave you Derek Jeter's post season stats ... what about them do you not believe? Do you think ESPN let this guy shave some numbers off somewhere? ARE YOU f***ING STUPID!? ... or just blinded by those pinstripe glasses?

[a700hitter]

PRetty much. Some anti-Yankee faggot on ESPN isnt going to tell me that what my eyes have seen for years is a lie.

It's not your eyes that are the problem. It's the rose-colored glasses that you are watching him through that are the problem. The cold-slap of statisics and player polls are apparently too much for PD worshippers to handle.

[26 to 6]

You guys are HILARIOUS!

 

"I DON'T CARE WHAT NUMBERS SAY ... I KNOW WHAT I SAW!!!"

 

I honestly don't understand how someone can look at numbers that are clearly printed infront of them, and say that they don't believe it. You sound like old men. This guy gave you facts ... he gave you Derek Jeter's post season stats ... what about them do you not believe? Do you think ESPN let this guy shave some numbers off somewhere? ARE YOU f***ING STUPID!? ... or just blinded by those pinstripe glasses?

Riv gave us some facts as well. And those facts clearly show that Jeter gets the job done and does his part. You dont have to bat .873 and have 2729832 Postseason home runs to be clutch. Jeter once said "Love is doing the things that dont show up in the box score." Jeter does those little things very well. Thats why he's so good. I've seen him produce for us in the postseason for years, and regardless of what stats you throw out there, I know he is a productive clutch performer in the postseason.

[26 to 6]

It's not your eyes that are the problem. It's the rose-colored glasses that you are watching him through that are the problem. The cold-slap of statisics and player polls are apparently too much for PD worshippers to handle.

You guys always accuse us of having the "rose-colored, pinstripe glasses" on, but maybe its not our bias thats the problem. Maybe the problem here is your Anti-Yankee bias. God forbid you admit that Jeter is a hell of a player and has not failed to do good things in the postseason. Would it hurt that bad?

[ORS]

Well hey, if he doesnt do that maybe we dont win the game. Clutch isnt defined as coming through in the late innings, its coming through when your team needs it.

 

 

 

Good post Riv, thanks for that one.

Also, I love how none of them had an intelligent response.

Your team needs an hit in every AB, and it needs you to field every ball in the field. Therefore, everyone with a hit is clutch. YAY FOR EVERYONE!

 

Whether you like it or not, clutch is pretty much accepted as a combination of hitting w/ RISP and hitting in Close & Late situations. Jeter's career stats in those situations are lower than his career overall stats. You cannot deny that fact.

 

You want to know what I love about stats? They aren't biased. They aren't subject to hero worship and selective memory. They account every walk-off hit/HR just as much as they account for every game ending GIDP with a RISP.

 

No intelligent responses? Funny, we all seem to grasp the concept of clutch as currently defined. You, on the other hand, reject sound analysis because it challenges your hero-worship of a player on your team. Now who's being ignorant?

[empirestrikesback26]

I see them, and I also see 4 World Series which he was a major part in winning with yes, clutch hits. So, I don't care what those numbers say. I honestly don't. They don't take away 4 world series.