Giambi - Lingering Questions

[rician blast]

he's been caught once, he can't be dumb enough to do it again..

 

the guy is a great baseball player, steroid or not he's still damn good and has a great eye.

 

john

 

OK, just for fun let's test your statement above...how do you feel about Barry Bonds?

[bosoxgirl34]

I did, and it is total f***ing garbage. There is ZERO scientific evidence that HGH improves eyesight, none. If you will take anything that google has to offer you as fact, then you'll be in trouble...

 

 

im not trying to start anything because i certaintly know nothing about steriods or HGH, however if you google it it doesnt bring you to ******** s*** sites maybe a few but for the most part it brings you to medical journals are you not going to believe a medical journal because you think you know everything about HGH. Also my cousin who is studying Sports therapy in college had to study all of this and i asked him exactly what it did and he also said it can improved you eyesight and in some people it considerably imporove their eyesight. so before you mark something as ******** or garbage you may want to look into it

[TheRivernator]

I looked in on it. Here is the deal. Check out this sight...

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3178.htm

membership is free. This is what scientific studies have shown occur with the use of HGH. I wont buy anything else but scientific evidence that it occurs. That means trials, studies with no biases randomized, controlled etc. I searched through an extensive list of studies using Ovid and came up with nothing. Also, the crap that you were googling was all drug company stuff and you can never trust their sites. They were all holistic sites to boot, which is mostly ******** anyway. I have yet to see a randomized trail that showed me that eyesight is improved on HGH. Also of note, HGH has been proven to alter body shape and contour people's bodies, but it actually has no bearing on strength. Although concomitant use of testosterone will cause isotonic strength increases and that is what Giambi did. HGH is not the culprit on its own, and if you choose to believe the eyesight thing, well, the evidence hasnt been presented and it is basically a bunch of single cases that suddenly worked, ie ********....

[He Hate Me]

I looked in on it. Here is the deal. Check out this sight...

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3178.htm

membership is free. This is what scientific studies have shown occur with the use of HGH. I wont buy anything else but scientific evidence that it occurs. That means trials, studies with no biases randomized, controlled etc. I searched through an extensive list of studies using Ovid and came up with nothing. Also, the crap that you were googling was all drug company stuff and you can never trust their sites. They were all holistic sites to boot, which is mostly ******** anyway. I have yet to see a randomized trail that showed me that eyesight is improved on HGH. Also of note, HGH has been proven to alter body shape and contour people's bodies, but it actually has no bearing on strength. Although concomitant use of testosterone will cause isotonic strength increases and that is what Giambi did. HGH is not the culprit on its own, and if you choose to believe the eyesight thing, well, the evidence hasnt been presented and it is basically a bunch of single cases that suddenly worked, ie ********....

 

you sound like a typical Bonds apologist, except for the pinstripes.

 

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/199500/199704INpm_w.jpg

 

Get off the high horse. Giambi cheated, and will always RIGHTFULLY be thought of as a cheater until he takes proactive steps to prove otherwise. His presence in the Yankee is a disgrace to the greatest sports franchise ever.

[a700hitter]

I looked in on it. Here is the deal. Check out this sight...

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3178.htm

membership is free. This is what scientific studies have shown occur with the use of HGH. I wont buy anything else but scientific evidence that it occurs. That means trials, studies with no biases randomized, controlled etc. I searched through an extensive list of studies using Ovid and came up with nothing. Also, the crap that you were googling was all drug company stuff and you can never trust their sites. They were all holistic sites to boot, which is mostly ******** anyway. I have yet to see a randomized trail that showed me that eyesight is improved on HGH. Also of note, HGH has been proven to alter body shape and contour people's bodies, but it actually has no bearing on strength. Although concomitant use of testosterone will cause isotonic strength increases and that is what Giambi did. HGH is not the culprit on its own, and if you choose to believe the eyesight thing, well, the evidence hasnt been presented and it is basically a bunch of single cases that suddenly worked, ie ********....

Unless you have a study that proves that HGH is not performance enhancing, you are arguing about an irrelevant detail.

[schillingouttheks]

OK, just for fun let's test your statement above...how do you feel about Barry Bonds?

I thought I'd chime in here. I know ahhchon (not personally, but I've seen him post enough), to know that he would most likely respond like I'm about to.

 

Regardless of whether Bonds used steroids or not, the man can hit a baseball. Sure, steroids increase your chance of hitting a homer via the obvious strength it supplies to you, but one thing it does NOT help you do is see and hit the ball in the first place. ANY professional athlete will tell you that hitting a baseball in the MLB is probably the hardest thing to do. Period. Steroids don't help you make contact with the ball, and they certainly don't help your hand-eye coordination. The fact that Bonds was even able to make contact with the ball as much as he did is a major accomplishment in itself. Bonds is a GREAT ballplayer. Cheater, *******, steroid abuser, whatever...that does not take away from the fact that he's a good hitter. Sure, baseball would be better off if he just left, and he's viewed as a gigantic ******* who doesn't give a damn about anyone, but none of that takes away from his ability to hit. The man can hit whether you like to believe it or not.

 

Also, as far as the argument with seeing the ball better goes (between Rivernator and bosoxgirl34), it really doesn't matter if HGH helps you see the ball better. Well, I suppose to an extent it does, but see what I said above. Hand-eye coordination doesn't get helped. I don't care how well or how bad you see the ball, to even hit the thing is a major accomplishment. Giambi was and still is a great hitter. He can make contact and see the ball off of his bat regardless of how well he sees the ball.

 

And yes, I agree with the statement that Giambi is a disgrace to the Yankees, but like I said, none of the views of these players' personalities takes away from the fact that they are great hitters.

[He Hate Me]

I'm not taking anything away from Bonds or Giambi's obivous skills, however they did cheat.

 

If Bill Gates tried to cheat on his taxes, he would still be a cheater, but it doesn't take away the fact that he's a rich man.

[rician blast]

none of the views of these players' personalities takes away from the fact that they are great hitters.

 

 

while I had hoped ahh would comment, I like your response and tend to agree.

 

Yeah Bonds "cheated" and Giambi "cheated" and so, apparently "unknowingly" (bwahahahahaha) did Sheffield, but how many other guys have? Palmiero, McGwire have been implicated. I always had suspicions about Nomar. Camminitti, Canseco for sure.

 

What about the fringe players who cheated just to make the majors or to stick around a little longer than they might have. How about pitchers who probably cheated to some extent, to get their fastballs up to 95 from 92?

 

Bottom line with Bonds, if I may direct the conversaiton there, is this guy was quite possibly the best all around ballplayer of his era BEFORE he started hitting HRs at the pace he did from 2000-2004.

 

The juice absolutely, positively increases performance....this is not a deniable fact, there is no argument against this notion. Regardless, Bonds is a tremendous player...and 'roids didn't make Bonds, they just made him better. ame with Giambi, to a lesser extent.

 

From a personal perspective, I can attest to the "benefits" of steroids. I cycled Test and Decadurabolin for short periods of time over a couple of years and the results were amazing. I was faster, stronger, threw harder, hit the ball farther, had much improved concentration and confidence, was more aggressive, and I could swear I saw better.

[bobby jr]

26 to 6, I tend to agree that a lot more players are on steroids than the general public believes. I read Canseco's book and he said that it was the general rule rather than an exception when a star players is on steroids. In other works most of them do it. However, this does not make it right, and I think baseball must clean house on this issue, not sweep it under the rug.

 

HGH and designer steroids that can escape the weak testing procedures that currently exist, make it quite possible that many ML players are still "on the juice".

[bobby jr]

Just out of curiosity I looked up Giambi on baseballreference.com and his page is sponsored with the message "Keith Oberman is right. Have you seen the size of his head? That's a big noggin " http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/giambja01.shtml

 

Giambi was born 01/08/1971 and was 34 years old last season. He hit 32 HR's with 87 RBI. Funny how players today seem to last longer, Dimaggio retired at 36.

[mtbykr]

if he submits to a blood test, the union may expell him...

 

 

And therein lies the biggest problem!

[ORS]

that is the biggest crock of crap I have ever seen. Improved eyesight? Better brain function? Tell that to a guy with acromegaly, and if you want to sound medical, look that up. Don't spread crap around here....

I'm not spreading any crap, just what I've read.

 

Eyesight

 

The eyesight improvement is supported by the testimonials of people who's eyesight improved, including Bonds himself as was reported in the book Game of Shadows.

 

He also complained of back and knee problems and about his eyesight, saying he couldn't pick up the rotation on the ball. Bonds' vision always had been astonishing......But with HGH, Bonds remained buff and more energized to train, yet he felt more flexible. There was an added benefit to the new drug regimen: Bonds stopped complaining about his eyes.

 

This is from the SI article about the book.

 

Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well.

 

 

Brain Function

 

 

Whenever we have a new experience or learn a new fact, new connections are woven. This process is supported by small protein molecules called nerve growth factor (NGF). A steady supply of nerve growth factor is necessary to maintain the connections that have been built up in our brains.....An important discovery of recent years is that growth hormone and its byproduct IGF-1(somatomedin-C) can also act as nerve growth factors.

 

Source: Elmer Cranton, M.D.

 

Yeah, the guy's specialty is holistic medicine, but he's a MD that graduated from Harvard Medical School.

 

And, that doesn't even address the fallacy of your logic. You claim there is no scientific data that supports these claims, and you use that as the basis for an argument that they must be untrue. Well, that coin has two sides. I have seen no scientific data that says neither of these things are true. In order to declare something absolute, there must be data to either prove or disprove. Neither of us can point to a scientific study that supports either claim. I, however, at least have have anecdotal support for what I have asserted.

[rician blast]

One Red...

 

great post, its a perfect response. just hope for once the Quiver-nator gets it.

[ahhchon]

schilling basically covered what i was going to say.

 

ORS- not believe everything you read off the internet. in 2 years people will be calling me doctor also. does that mean everything i put on a webpage i wrote is real? of course not. in the medical field we have been taught to cross check everything with credible sources, such as textbooks etc. even when we find something in a textbook we cross it with other textbooks to make sure.

 

i've done my fair share on steroids, hormones etc. not once has it come across to me that HGH has the ability to improve eyesight. i'm in the the middle of finals week, but once it's over and i find the time before summer semester starts i'll get back to you with solid information.

 

john

[ahhchon]

yeah great eye, great guy, blah blah I 100% agree. Still, he cheated, and I'm willing to forgive that, but he will always be tainted unless he submits himself to voluntary blood testing. Part of me is also extremely pissed that this loser's steroids driven contract is on our roster.

 

how could you possibly be pissed he's on your roster? the man is a beast at the plate right now. his obp is over .500, he's hitting hr's at a great rate, he's doing everything right. he's arguably the 2nd best DH right now.

 

john

[TheRivernator]

you sound like a typical Bonds apologist, except for the pinstripes.

 

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/199500/199704INpm_w.jpg

 

Get off the high horse. Giambi cheated, and will always RIGHTFULLY be thought of as a cheater until he takes proactive steps to prove otherwise. His presence in the Yankee is a disgrace to the greatest sports franchise ever.

 

I am 100% not an apologist. I am in the medical field and I do not want someone to spread medical lies under false pretenses. Giambi cheated, period. He was one of my favorite players, he is no more. Nothing will change that and he will be stained in my mind forever. That being said, people are getting inflated ideas about these drugs that thee cheaters took. Say it for what it is, no need for embellishment, their stain they put on the game wont get any bigger if you embellish...

[TheRivernator]

I'm not spreading any crap, just what I've read.

 

Eyesight

 

The eyesight improvement is supported by the testimonials of people who's eyesight improved, including Bonds himself as was reported in the book Game of Shadows.

 

 

 

This is from the SI article about the book.

 

 

 

 

Brain Function

 

 

 

 

Source: Elmer Cranton, M.D.

 

Yeah, the guy's specialty is holistic medicine, but he's a MD that graduated from Harvard Medical School.

 

And, that doesn't even address the fallacy of your logic. You claim there is no scientific data that supports these claims, and you use that as the basis for an argument that they must be untrue. Well, that coin has two sides. I have seen no scientific data that says neither of these things are true. In order to declare something absolute, there must be data to either prove or disprove. Neither of us can point to a scientific study that supports either claim. I, however, at least have have anecdotal support for what I have asserted.

 

 

anecdotal, holistic evidence? I could poke holes in that all day long. Fact is, holistics like to claim things work on testimonials alone. What they fail to address is placebo effect (which is monstrous) and the tons of other people for whom the regimen failed. In order for HGH to be proven to assist eyesight, there needs to be a study where you create 2 groups randomly. These groups are then given a drug, group A gets sugar pill, group B gets HGH. Then they would need to get serial eye exams to assess how much better their eyesight got. Then the result would have to stand up to p values and a 95% confidence interval. Fact is, no study HAS BEEN PUBLISHED to support your claim. What most non-medically savvy people do not understand is the amount of failed studies never make it to the market. Hence, holistics is created. Holistic therapies in and of themselves are not regulated by the FDA, so they could sell you salt water for all they care and they can get away with it. Also, many holistic remedies have already been shown to be ineffective or so mildly effective that they arent worth it for what they say they treat. Two problems, there is no money in publishing a report that states a product does not work, because for the most part, that kills the drug. If the drug is holistic, then they dont need the study, got it? I'll take this to the bank until a definitive study is released. If it is considered a "holistic treatment" and has been for awhile now, yet NOTHING is available claiming it is useful for said purpose, you can be sure that it has likely either been disproven or so minimally effective that it doesnt stand up to the confidence interval for said indication...

[ORS]

ORS- not believe everything you read off the internet. in 2 years people will be calling me doctor also. does that mean everything i put on a webpage i wrote is real? of course not. in the medical field we have been taught to cross check everything with credible sources, such as textbooks etc. even when we find something in a textbook we cross it with other textbooks to make sure.

 

john

I don't believe everything I read on the 'net, and I too believe several sources are better than one. In an effort to save time and typing, I only linked one doctor, but a google search will yield literally thousands of reports by doctors on the subject. When several of them reference the same research (the finding that HGH will act as a nerve growth factors), then I'm inclined to believe the study exists, and to be honest, I wouldn't know where to back check about the research if I were inclined to.

[TheRivernator]

I don't believe everything I read on the 'net, and I too believe several sources are better than one. In an effort to save time and typing, I only linked one doctor, but a google search will yield literally thousands of reports by doctors on the subject. When several of them reference the same research (the finding that HGH will act as a nerve growth factors), then I'm inclined to believe the study exists, and to be honest, I wouldn't know where to back check about the research if I were inclined to.

 

Do you know how many doctors are wrong in their theories? If we go back to listening to what doctors feel is right vs evidence based medicine, then we'll be back to the stone age. How many doctors used to remove tonsils at the first sign of infection? It now takes many before a doc removes them. How about Hormone therapy? There are thousands of examples where doctors have been very wrong. That is why medicine is being shaped by research instead of personal opinion. You can site 2,000 doctors, I still won't believe it until I see the study that proves it works.....

[ORS]

anecdotal, holistic evidence? I could poke holes in that all day long. Fact is, holistics like to claim things work on testimonials alone. What they fail to address is placebo effect (which is monstrous) and the tons of other people for whom the regimen failed. In order for HGH to be proven to assist eyesight, there needs to be a study where you create 2 groups randomly. These groups are then given a drug, group A gets sugar pill, group B gets HGH. Then they would need to get serial eye exams to assess how much better their eyesight got. Then the result would have to stand up to p values and a 95% confidence interval. Fact is, no study HAS BEEN PUBLISHED to support your claim. What most non-medically savvy people do not understand is the amount of failed studies never make it to the market. Hence, holistics is created. Holistic therapies in and of themselves are not regulated by the FDA, so they could sell you salt water for all they care and they can get away with it. Also, many holistic remedies have already been shown to be ineffective or so mildly effective that they arent worth it for what they say they treat. Two problems, there is no money in publishing a report that states a product does not work, because for the most part, that kills the drug. If the drug is holistic, then they dont need the study, got it? I'll take this to the bank until a definitive study is released. If it is considered a "holistic treatment" and has been for awhile now, yet NOTHING is available claiming it is useful for said purpose, you can be sure that it has likely either been disproven or so minimally effective that it doesnt stand up to the confidence interval for said indication...

I find it hard to believe that said research has been done, has failed, and then subsequently been buried. HGH received lots of publicity well before it's part in MLB's Steroid Era as an anti-aging miracle where many beneficial claims were made about it's use, and usually such claims are a met with the level of skepticism that you are showing now. That skepticism typically results in research to prove/disprove the claim, and that report is made public and picked up by the media.

 

Look, I don't wholeheartedly believe that it can/will improve eyesight. That said, lacking a definitive report, I'll take it from the horse's mouth (Bonds') that it helped him see the ball better.

[ORS]

Do you know how many doctors are wrong in their theories? If we go back to listening to what doctors feel is right vs evidence based medicine, then we'll be back to the stone age. How many doctors used to remove tonsils at the first sign of infection? It now takes many before a doc removes them. How about Hormone therapy? There are thousands of examples where doctors have been very wrong. That is why medicine is being shaped by research instead of personal opinion. You can site 2,000 doctors, I still won't believe it until I see the study that proves it works.....

All well and good, but why do I have to accept that it isn't possible without a report saying so?

[TheRivernator]

All well and good, but why do I have to accept that it isn't possible without a report saying so?

 

let's just put it this way. You are a rather articulate poster on this board and people may consider what you say as fact when it is actually speculation and likely untrue...

[ORS]

let's just put it this way. You are a rather articulate poster on this board and people may consider what you say as fact when it is actually speculation and likely untrue...

Fair enough.

[He Hate Me]

how could you possibly be pissed he's on your roster? the man is a beast at the plate right now. his obp is over .500, he's hitting hr's at a great rate, he's doing everything right. he's arguably the 2nd best DH right now.

 

john

 

He's a cheater. the fact he's in a Yankee uniform is a disgrace to this team. I don't care if he's hitting .800 with 30 HRs.

[He Hate Me]

Fair enough.

 

Forget it. Some peopel are very good at seeing no evil when it coms to people on their team.

[TheRivernator]

Forget it. Some peopel are very good at seeing no evil when it coms to people on their team.

 

and some people are very simple minded and cannot expand their horizons...

[He Hate Me]

and some people are very simple minded and cannot expand their horizons...

 

wait did YOU just accuse me of being close minded when it comes to the Yankees????????????????

[a700hitter]

wait did YOU just accuse me of being close minded when it comes to the Yankees????????????????

I believe that he accused you of being "small-minded" not "closed-minded."

[ahhchon]

He's a cheater. the fact he's in a Yankee uniform is a disgrace to this team. I don't care if he's hitting .800 with 30 HRs.

 

BS, because if he was the yankees would easily be on top of the AL east with ZERO losses.

 

i don't see what the big deal is. alot of people who have worn the yankee pinstripes are tainted. the babe himself with a slob who drank and smoked all the time and never gave a rats ass about his health, how about the others who were wife beaters?

 

c'mon, you can't just single a guy out cus he did steroids. big deal, alot of people did steroids it was part of the game (unfortunately) it's time we moved on, not dwell in the past. people deserve to be forgiven, it's part of life.

 

john

[Youk Of The Nation]

BS, because if he was the yankees would easily be on top of the AL east with ZERO losses.

 

i don't see what the big deal is. alot of people who have worn the yankee pinstripes are tainted. the babe himself with a slob who drank and smoked all the time and never gave a rats ass about his health, how about the others who were wife beaters?

 

c'mon, you can't just single a guy out cus he did steroids. big deal, alot of people did steroids it was part of the game (unfortunately) it's time we moved on, not dwell in the past. people deserve to be forgiven, it's part of life.

 

john

 

 

I wasn't going to add anything to this discussion, but I have to say: Alcohol and cigars aren't unethical ways of enhancing yourself. That he was able to drink and smoke and womanize like he did and STILL be as great as he was just adds to his legend.