Arroyo backstabbed on way out door from disloyal nation

[TheRivernator]

Been a long while since I posted here, but whatever.

 

This deal is a strange one to say the least. Most deals have clear cut winners and clear cut losers, or they have the general feeling that both teams got what they needed. I dont get that feeling from this one.

For those of you who badmouth Arroyo as he leaves town as a "bad pitcher" or that he was inconsistent, do your f***ing homework. You did the same thing as JD walked out the door, the same thing as Clemens left etc, you assassinate the players that leave either by FA or trade and it makes me sick.

Arroyo was inconsistent for his entire tenure here and when a deal presented itself that got the Sox a good, proven player in return, they jumped at it.

 

This quote couldnt be more wrong. Who was the sox leader in quality starts last yr? Was it even close? Get your facts straight. Arroyo had 20QS last yr, 4 behind the AL leader Santana. He was 2nd on the team to the knuckler in IP while breaking the 200IP mark. He even had a 15-20 start undefeated streak bridging two seasons, and what did you get him for? He was a released player from the pirates who just so happened to fit perfectly into the fenway limelight, something that does not happen all that often. He was a guy who gave you nearly 200IP in your championship yr when BH Kim fizzled out. His overall numbers as a red sox starter were 377.7IP 377H 180ER 285K 98BB to even out to a 4.30ERA and a solid .250s BAA. The guy was a horse, he took the ball and 63% of the time he put 6+IP and 3 or less ERs on the board. That is about as consistent as it gets, so for the back stabbers who wanna lay one large dagger into his spine on his way out the door, please dont water it down, it makes you look stupid.

 

As far as Wily Mo. Huge potential that has not truly been realized. He is a 24 yr old with a 2 yr injury history of mostly his legs, something that is scary. Also, he is the antithesis of the sox philosophy. As a matter of fact, this whole offseason has been out of sorts for theo and comp. With Wily Mo in the lineup, the sox will have 3 guys who had OBP's below .305 last yr (joining Lowell and AGon). I thought the sox philosophy was OBP and BAw/RISP? Well Wily's BAw/RISP last yr was under .220 so his clutch factor kinda blows as well. For those of you who want to compare Ortiz and Pena, well you cannot. Ortiz had a .340OBP yr prior to coming to the sox and he also had a .364 and .371 season under his belt prior to that. He proved he could walk, Wily hasnt. Most players show aggressiveness in yr one and improve steadily on their patience until about yr 3-4 where they level off. Wily actually dropped his walk total last yr from 22 to 20, so he will likely follow the patience path of a Soriano (ie none). Also, Wily K's at a higher rate than he gets on base (.350 to .304) which will bring back memories of Bellhorn except there wont be those all important 78 walks. Now take a look at what won the sox their only championship since our great great grandparents were little. The sox lineup that postseason consisted of

Vtek, Papi, Millar, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Manny, Mueller, Damon, and Trot. That 9 man lineup had a player low OBP of .320 (Cabrera) yet everyone else's was above .365. That is a bitch of a lineup to face. Now, when you add Lowell, (who looks just as bad this yr as he was last yr) AGon (who cannot walk or make contact), and Wily Mo, you will have a dead zone in the lineup that will give you something very seldom and a whole lot of nothing.

I think this trade was a panic move and Wily will give you exactly what he gave Cincy. But what did he give Cincy? He gave them a near .900OPS vs lefties but a much lower OPS vs righties (mid .700s) and when all of that is on total bases and harldy anything on walks, then you become a hit or miss player. Combine that with the fact that 3/4 of the league's pitching is right handed and you basically dealt your most consistent pitcher away for a platoon player who will likely be nothing more than that. Yeah he has a higher ceiling than most, but his ceiling started to show and I think Cincy wanted to sell high. The sox should have held out for Kearns, who at least fits the sox MO fo patience and power, not just the latter.

Grill me all you want, but I think this is another case of overhype the new guy and stab the departing guy in the back. Arroyo was a warrior for the sox cause who took less money to stay in Boston. Again, he signed a TEAM friendly deal with a handshake agreement that he would not be traded and the team renegged on the handshake deal. Arroyo loved Boston, he loved you guys, and he loved the red sox. That love was taken advantage of and don't think it won't come back to bite them. Word travels fast from the players....

[jsinger121]

Go Away

[TheRivernator]

Go Away

 

nice retort, nothing of substance, just what I expected....

[KeepTheFaith1229]

If he was still on our team I don't feel you would be praising him...

[jsinger121]

I like Arroyo but he is replaceable. Theo sees upside in Pena and so do alot of others. Pitchers like Arroyo are all over baseball. They are called league average. Hell we got Arroyo off waivers.

[ACL BoSox]

Yankee fans do the same exact thing when players leave their team...

 

Examples: Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Ted Lilly, Javier Vazquez

 

Do I need to go on?

[RedSoxRooter]

36 quality starts in the last two years is more than any other pitcher on the Sox. You can say he was "league average", you can say he was a fifth starter, whatever. Just don't say he sucked. If the last 3 years were his prime, then he gave that to Boston. Leave him alone. Go feast on Damon.

[Cityofchampions33]

Damnit I thought this guy left

[jsinger121]

36 quality starts in the last two years is more than any other pitcher on the Sox. You can say he was "league average", you can say he was a fifth starter, whatever. Just don't say he sucked. If the last 3 years were his prime, then he gave that to Boston. Leave him alone. Go feast on Damon.

 

I never said he sucked. I just think you can find Bronson Arroyo's all over baseball. I would have kept Arroyo if we could have dumped Clement but that was not an option.

[riverside sluggers]

Yawn all I have to say is whatever

 

Also, he is the antithesis of the sox philosophy. As a matter of fact, this whole offseason has been out of sorts for theo and comp.

 

Yeah and im sure Coco Crisp & Mark Loretta (both tearing up spring training), as you have said won't live up to expectations for us this season. Regardless each thread that you make leads to the same thing: Red Sox vs Yankee arguments

[RedSoxRooter]

I never said he sucked. I just think you can find Bronson Arroyo's all over baseball. I would have kept Arroyo if we could have dumped Clement but that was not an option.

 

It wasn't directed at you. Just in general, agreeing with Rivernator..

[a700hitter]

Rivernator, you made some good points about the differences between this year's lineup and the '04 lineup, but the points about backstabbing and taking advantage of love were meaningless. This is a business. Everyone is out for himself.

[jsinger121]

What should Arroyo be complaining about. Hes going to make a guaranteed 12 million over the 3 years. Had he took arbitration he would have only signed for a year and say he ended up having tommy john surgery or another injury he would get nothing after that year. He made a smart business decision to take the guaranteed money when it was offered. For a guy to be plucked off the Pirate scrap heap and come to Boston and end up getting this contract he should be fortunate.

[TheRivernator]

please show me the yankee red sox argument in my above post? Also, you can find Arroyo's all over baseball? Are you retarded, well, maybe you are. Yeah, I think the yankees should just go out on the market and nab the guy with the 5th highest total of quality starts last yr in the league. Yeah, those guys are easy to find. NOT. Guys like Arroyo are not as common as you may think.

[TheRivernator]

Rivernator, you made some good points about the differences between this year's lineup and the '04 lineup, but the points about backstabbing and taking advantage of love were meaningless. This is a business. Everyone is out for himself.

 

It was only directed at those who were diminishing his importance for the sox. You werent doing that....

[The Monster is my Mom]

Go Away

 

First, Singer say something of substance or don't post just because you are trying to up your post count.

 

Second, I agree with alot of the things Rivernator said but everyone ignored in the first Arroyo thread. About poor BA, OBP, injury problems, doesn't fit the Red Sox mold. But as usual everyone starts backstabbing Arroyo and sucking Wily Mo's dick.

[jsinger121]

First, Singer say something of substance or don't post just because you are trying to up your post count.

 

Second, I agree with alot of the things Rivernator said but everyone ignored in the first Arroyo thread. About poor BA, OBP, injury problems, doesn't fit the Red Sox mold. But as usual everyone starts backstabbing Arroyo and sucking Wily Mo's dick.

 

We aren't backstabbing Arroyo. Hey I would like to have kept him at the expense of the dumping Clement but that wasn't possible. I'm excited for Pena's upside and potential of what he could become. That type of power doesn't grow on trees. Arroyo is what he is which is a nice pitcher and nothing to drool over. He did have quality starts but he also had a great offense to back him up in those starts.

[a700hitter]

It was only directed at those who were diminishing his importance for the sox. You weren't doing that....

You are right. Arroyo was a very solid performer. As a fifth starter, he took the ball for every one of his turns, and he put up 10 and 14 wins. When Pedro was in his heyday from 98 to 2000, the Sox barely had a number 2 that could put up Arroyo's numbers never mind a reliable number 5 guy. Number 5 guys like Arroyo are not as common as some might think. IMO he had not peaked. Although his k's were decreasing, he continued to learn his craft.

[TheRivernator]

The Red Sox can find Bronson Arroyo type pitchers anywhere in baseball. Heck the Red Sox got Bronson off waivers from the Pirates. Bronson is what he is and that is a league average pitcher who is likely not going to get better with age. His K numbers have already started to take a dip and it likely will not go up as he gets older.

 

Ok, you truly are thick headed. A league average pitcher means that he balances out the poor and the solid. His era of 4.5 was league average for a starter. His win total was much higher than league average though, and his QS were the 5th highest total in the league. That is called consistent and is definitely not "league average". He kept you in games, he was a big reason why Papi has a ring, and a major reason that you even made the playoffs last yr. Now take that switchblade out of Arroyo's back and admit that you are drinking in the swill of the Sox ownership media spin.

 

The sox media is going to split sox nation like no other organization. There will be the disillusioned fans who truly see what is going on, but they will still root for the name on the jersey, and there will be those who drink the swill and will be the pawns of the media circus. I think I know where you stand singer....

[riverside sluggers]

please show me the yankee red sox argument in my above post? Also, you can find Arroyo's all over baseball? Are you retarded, well, maybe you are. Yeah, I think the yankees should just go out on the market and nab the guy with the 5th highest total of quality starts last yr in the league. Yeah, those guys are easy to find. NOT. Guys like Arroyo are not as common as you may think.

 

Yea youre quite the respectable poster.You do make threads into yankee vs so arguments. Its always the same thing entwined: ripping the Sox FO, media, and us Sox fans

 

Something Ive said before, Bronson for this season & forseeable future would see his main role doing mop-up duties. Now he's going to Cincinatti and being placed as the #2 starter in the rotation (33-35 starts compared to several spot starts). Im happy for him and hope he does well. About his handshaken agreement--Yes this is baseball, which is why it should always be written onto the contract.

 

This was a deal that Theo couldnt resist. For 2006 Wily will be an asset in the sense he will mainly be seeing left-handed pitching while filling in for Trot. He held a .291 avg against south paw pitching, Trot's was just at .227

[TheRivernator]

singer, you do know that quality starts are independent of team performance, right?

[TheRivernator]

Yea youre quite the respectable poster. You do make threads into yankee vs so arguments. Its always the same thing entwined: ripping the Sox FO, media, and us Sox fans

 

Something Ive said before, Bronson for this season & forseeable future would see his main role doing mop-up duties. Now he's going to Cincinatti and being placed as the #2 starter in the rotation (33-35 starts compared to several spot starts). Im happy for him and hope he does well. About his handshaken agreement--Yes this is baseball, which is why it should always be written onto the contract.

 

This was a deal that Theo couldnt resist. For 2006 Wily will be an asset in the sense he will mainly be seeing left-handed pitching while filling in for Trot. He held a .291 avg against south paw pitching, Trot's was just at .227

 

I think this post started as an idea about the backstabbing that Arroyo got and it turned into an anti-trade post, sorry. I think the sox made a mistake, but it has the potential to be a huge trade in the sox favor if (and it is a HUGE if) Wily can actually hold back. Also, power is nice, but it wont do you much good if your team is built off OBP and you have a guy who swings at everything from tits to toes. Either way, when you say goodbye to a player, be realistic about it. When we said goodbye to Weaver, Brown and Vazquez, at least we hasome backing. All 3 sucked in yankee uniforms (Vazquez the least but he folded down the stretch) and all three were dealt away or let go in favor of something better. Now look at Pettitte. When we lost him, yankee fans were mad at the organization, not the player. We heaped praise on Pettitte and still miss him. No backstabbing involved. Arroyo deserved the same treatment, but it is almost as if he is being eaten alive since he was forced out of the org....

[jsinger121]

Quality starts can be a tribute to ones team offense. say arroyo gave up 4 runs in the first and then pitched into the 7th and ended up getting the lead because of his offense that is considered a quality start.

[TheRivernator]

Quality starts can be a tribute to ones team offense. say arroyo gave up 4 runs in the first and then pitched into the 7th and ended up getting the lead because of his offense that is considered a quality start.

 

No it is not. A quality start is 6 or more innings pitched with 3 or less ER allowed. It has NOTHING to do with the team's offense...

[riverside sluggers]

Either way, when you say goodbye to a player, be realistic about it. When we said goodbye to Weaver, Brown and Vazquez, at least we hasome backing. All 3 sucked in yankee uniforms (Vazquez the least but he folded down the stretch) and all three were dealt away or let go in favor of something better. Now look at Pettitte. When we lost him, yankee fans were mad at the organization, not the player. We heaped praise on Pettitte and still miss him. No backstabbing involved. Arroyo deserved the same treatment, but it is almost as if he is being eaten alive since he was forced out of the org....

 

I thought I had said this...

 

Something Ive said before, Bronson for this season & forseeable future would see his main role doing mop-up duties. Now he's going to Cincinatti and being placed as the #2 starter in the rotation (33-35 starts compared to several spot starts). Im happy for him and hope he does well.

[TheRivernator]

I thought I had said this...

 

sorry RS. There were a good amount of almost anti-Bronson posts on this site. You werent one of them either. Singer was and a few others. I'll quote those guys. I dont want to throw every sox fan under the bus, but the media campaign is working. (see dirt dogs or anything gammo writes for the spin)...

[jsinger121]

I'm not against Bronson at all. To me when you have a chance to get a player of Pena's talent for Arroyo then you take that chance. Bronson will do his thing in Cincinnati. I enjoyed Bronson's time here and his contribution but I look at this trade and see alot more upside with Wily Mo Pena than I do with Bronson Arroyo.

[Cityofchampions33]

Every thread this guy posts in becomes a fight

[TheRivernator]

Why because he had every single opportunity to succeed here and couldn't?

Arroyo was inconsistent for his entire tenure here and when a deal presented itself that got the Sox a good, proven player in return, they jumped at it. Is Theo supposed to keep Arroyo and watch him get lit up on every outing just cause he took a hometown discount? We have depth at a position and we sacrificed some of that depth to make up for lack of depth in another position. He did what GMs do.

 

By the way, I don't see how you compare this to Damon. Damon left cause the Yankees gave him more money than anyone else wanted to. Last time I checked, the Yankees roster was chock full of players just like that so don't single out the Sox as a team with no loyalty just cause they didn't wanna overpay on Damon.

 

for starts...

[Beckett95]

Bronson Arroyo was one of the most overrated pitchers on the Sox the last couple of years.

He was WAY to inconsistent. One game he'd be racking up K's the next hes be leaving hanging breaking balls over the plate. He's never had dominating stuff and IMO if you dont have extremely good stuff, you need to be a very accurate pitcher in order to succeed.

 

career stats

Jeff Suppan-- 94-94 4.66 era

Bronson Arroyo-- 33-33 4.60 era