Arroyo backstabbed on way out door from disloyal nation

[TheRivernator]

I'm not against Bronson at all. To me when you have a chance to get a player of Pena's talent for Arroyo then you take that chance. Bronson will do his thing in Cincinnati. I enjoyed Bronson's time here and his contribution but I look at this trade and see alot more upside with Wily Mo Pena than I do with Bronson Arroyo.

 

That is all you had to say. If that is truly how you feel, then you cannot really be argued with. Just dont diminish what you gave up....

[TheRivernator]

Bronson Arroyo was one of the most overrated pitchers on the Sox the last couple of years.

 

career stats

Jeff Suppan-- 94-94 4.66 era

Bronson Arroyo-- 33-33 4.60 era

 

overrated? Seriously, look at your rotation last yr. Look at the stats. He led the team in QS's. He was second on the team in IP. He took the bump 32 times and his ERA was mid-4. That is hardly overrated....

[a700hitter]

Now look at Pettitte. When we lost him, yankee fans were mad at the organization, not the player. We heaped praise on Pettitte and still miss him. No backstabbing involved. Arroyo deserved the same treatment, but it is almost as if he is being eaten alive since he was forced out of the org....

Don't worry about Bronson. I don't think he reads our posts. It's just the opinions of our posters. If any of them came face to face with Bronson, I am sure they would greet him warmly and ask for his autograph.

[Beckett95]

Bronsons's a decent pitcher who i would have been fine with in the rotation, but if your being offered a 24 year old power hitting machine for a #5 starter, i think ill take that deal anyday. Arroyo has already peaked to his potential, which is not an important position for the team right now. They have 6 starters who IMO are all better than arroyo. They had a need for a right handed hitting power prospect, especially after they got rid of Marte and they got a good one in Pena.

[TheRivernator]

Bronsons's a decent pitcher who i would have been fine with in the rotation, but if your being offered a 24 year old power hitting machine for a #5 starter, i think ill take that deal anyday. Arroyo has already peaked to his potential, which is not an important position for the team right now. They have 6 starters who IMO are all better than arroyo. They had a need for a right handed hitting power prospect, especially after they got rid of Marte and they got a good one in Pena.

 

Pena is following the career path of Dave Kingman or Phil Plantier. You need balance in your game, all taters is not beneficial, as one may think...

[Beckett95]

We dont know that about Pena yet. Hes only 24. We know what we would have gotten from Arroyo. A decent reliever who would have made a couple of starts for some reason or another. He really had no spot on this team. Theres no need for carrying 7 starters on your 25 man roster

[Cityofchampions33]

overrated? Seriously, look at your rotation last yr. Look at the stats. He led the team in QS's. He was second on the team in IP. He took the bump 32 times and his ERA was mid-4. That is hardly overrated....

 

Alright, first of all your thread title is way wrong, we are in no way disloyal, no one has bashed Arroyo, or said "Thank god he's gone" so it's more of a disloyal FO, and even then, Arroyo had every chance to stay and get Clement traded instead.

Also, as for his consitentness, you've almost proven the point in your stats. He's had 20 quality starts, which is tremendous for anyone, Schill had 22 in '04 and he had a low 3 ERA. Wanna know why Bronson's was in the mid-4's? Because in his other 12 starts he got knocked around. One start he'd be lights out, another he'd be lit up. I don't think however that he is overrated.

[jsinger121]

Bronsons's a decent pitcher who i would have been fine with in the rotation, but if your being offered a 24 year old power hitting machine for a #5 starter, i think ill take that deal anyday. Arroyo has already peaked to his potential, which is not an important position for the team right now. They have 6 starters who IMO are all better than arroyo. They had a need for a right handed hitting power prospect, especially after they got rid of Marte and they got a good one in Pena.

 

He may have a ton of power but he is still a work in progress. His upside is enormous if he can get it together. He will have a good hitting coach in Papa Jack and Ortiz and Manny to lean on. All he needs to do is take the next step.

[guapo34]

He had an ERA+ under 100 last year and his K rate/9 innings went way down. He can't get lefties out, and after April he just didn't pitch well last year. He wasn't going to start this year, or any year in the near future. For him we got a 24 year old slugger who kills left handed pitching. The teams biggest need was someone to platoon with Trot Nixon against lefties. What exactly is not to like here?

[Cityofchampions33]

Also he really didn't have to start a new thread about this.

[26 to 6]

Been a long while since I posted here, but whatever.

 

This deal is a strange one to say the least. Most deals have clear cut winners and clear cut losers, or they have the general feeling that both teams got what they needed. I dont get that feeling from this one.

For those of you who badmouth Arroyo as he leaves town as a "bad pitcher" or that he was inconsistent, do your f***ing homework. You did the same thing as JD walked out the door, the same thing as Clemens left etc, you assassinate the players that leave either by FA or trade and it makes me sick.

 

 

This quote couldnt be more wrong. Who was the sox leader in quality starts last yr? Was it even close? Get your facts straight. Arroyo had 20QS last yr, 4 behind the AL leader Santana. He was 2nd on the team to the knuckler in IP while breaking the 200IP mark. He even had a 15-20 start undefeated streak bridging two seasons, and what did you get him for? He was a released player from the pirates who just so happened to fit perfectly into the fenway limelight, something that does not happen all that often. He was a guy who gave you nearly 200IP in your championship yr when BH Kim fizzled out. His overall numbers as a red sox starter were 377.7IP 377H 180ER 285K 98BB to even out to a 4.30ERA and a solid .250s BAA. The guy was a horse, he took the ball and 63% of the time he put 6+IP and 3 or less ERs on the board. That is about as consistent as it gets, so for the back stabbers who wanna lay one large dagger into his spine on his way out the door, please dont water it down, it makes you look stupid.

 

As far as Wily Mo. Huge potential that has not truly been realized. He is a 24 yr old with a 2 yr injury history of mostly his legs, something that is scary. Also, he is the antithesis of the sox philosophy. As a matter of fact, this whole offseason has been out of sorts for theo and comp. With Wily Mo in the lineup, the sox will have 3 guys who had OBP's below .305 last yr (joining Lowell and AGon). I thought the sox philosophy was OBP and BAw/RISP? Well Wily's BAw/RISP last yr was under .220 so his clutch factor kinda blows as well. For those of you who want to compare Ortiz and Pena, well you cannot. Ortiz had a .340OBP yr prior to coming to the sox and he also had a .364 and .371 season under his belt prior to that. He proved he could walk, Wily hasnt. Most players show aggressiveness in yr one and improve steadily on their patience until about yr 3-4 where they level off. Wily actually dropped his walk total last yr from 22 to 20, so he will likely follow the patience path of a Soriano (ie none). Also, Wily K's at a higher rate than he gets on base (.350 to .304) which will bring back memories of Bellhorn except there wont be those all important 78 walks. Now take a look at what won the sox their only championship since our great great grandparents were little. The sox lineup that postseason consisted of

Vtek, Papi, Millar, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Manny, Mueller, Damon, and Trot. That 9 man lineup had a player low OBP of .320 (Cabrera) yet everyone else's was above .365. That is a bitch of a lineup to face. Now, when you add Lowell, (who looks just as bad this yr as he was last yr) AGon (who cannot walk or make contact), and Wily Mo, you will have a dead zone in the lineup that will give you something very seldom and a whole lot of nothing.

I think this trade was a panic move and Wily will give you exactly what he gave Cincy. But what did he give Cincy? He gave them a near .900OPS vs lefties but a much lower OPS vs righties (mid .700s) and when all of that is on total bases and harldy anything on walks, then you become a hit or miss player. Combine that with the fact that 3/4 of the league's pitching is right handed and you basically dealt your most consistent pitcher away for a platoon player who will likely be nothing more than that. Yeah he has a higher ceiling than most, but his ceiling started to show and I think Cincy wanted to sell high. The sox should have held out for Kearns, who at least fits the sox MO fo patience and power, not just the latter.

Grill me all you want, but I think this is another case of overhype the new guy and stab the departing guy in the back. Arroyo was a warrior for the sox cause who took less money to stay in Boston. Again, he signed a TEAM friendly deal with a handshake agreement that he would not be traded and the team renegged on the handshake deal. Arroyo loved Boston, he loved you guys, and he loved the red sox. That love was taken advantage of and don't think it won't come back to bite them. Word travels fast from the players....

Good post.

[TheRivernator]

Alright, first of all your thread title is way wrong, we are in no way disloyal, no one has bashed Arroyo, or said "Thank god he's gone" so it's more of a disloyal FO, and even then, Arroyo had every chance to stay and get Clement traded instead.

Also, as for his consitentness, you've almost proven the point in your stats. He's had 20 quality starts, which is tremendous for anyone, Schill had 22 in '04 and he had a low 3 ERA. Wanna know why Bronson's was in the mid-4's? Because in his other 12 starts he got knocked around. One start he'd be lights out, another he'd be lit up. I don't think however that he is overrated.

 

You have a guy who would give you a chance to win 63% of the time. Not just that, but with your lineup, you should win about 80-90% of those quality starts. Given that, the sox would win at least 50% of his starts based solely on his quality starts. Of the 12 non-quality starts, you are bound to win 3 or 4 just by luck or by him having a good outing that didnt qualify (8IP 4ER or 5.2IP 2ER). Basically, if things break the way the stats typically fall, Arroyo's consistency should have guaranteed the sox 20 wins in his 32 starts, which is a 63% win % and if every sox pitcher did that, the sox would win 102 games....

[TheRivernator]

You have a guy who would give you a chance to win 63% of the time. Not just that, but with your lineup, you should win about 80-90% of those quality starts. Given that, the sox would win at least 50% of his starts based solely on his quality starts. Of the 12 non-quality starts, you are bound to win 3 or 4 just by luck or by him having a good outing that didnt qualify (8IP 4ER or 5.2IP 2ER). Basically, if things break the way the stats typically fall, Arroyo's consistency should have guaranteed the sox 20 wins in his 32 starts, which is a 63% win % and if every sox pitcher did that, the sox would win 102 games....

 

 

btw, the sox were 17-15 in his starts last yr, so the sox actually dropped the ball a bit for arroyo if you go by the stats. The top teams will win 80-90% of Quality starts which on the lower end of the estimate would give the sox 16 wins in the 20QS. You usually win 25-30% of the non-QS's and since he had 12 of those, you would expect 3-4 wins, so the sox should have won 19 or 20 of his games...

[26 to 6]

Yankee fans do the same exact thing when players leave their team...

 

Examples: Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Ted Lilly, Javier Vazquez

 

Do I need to go on?

I still praise Javy and Lilly. I dont necessarily praise Weaver and Brown, but i've always liked Brown (and yes, you can go back and check all of my posts, I have always taken that stand) due to his competitive nature, and I dont necessarily dislike Jeff Weaver, Just wish he gave us a little more.

 

What should Arroyo be complaining about. Hes going to make a guaranteed 12 million over the 3 years.

Well perhaps he had some interest in possibly winning this year.

 

Doesnt look like that will be the case for him, however.

 

This is a business. Everyone is out for himself.

Including Johnny Damon, so if Sox fans are going to play that hand for the Arroyo situation, then why take a different stance when it comes to Damon.

[guapo34]

You have a guy who would give you a chance to win 63% of the time. Not just that, but with your lineup, you should win about 80-90% of those quality starts. Given that, the sox would win at least 50% of his starts based solely on his quality starts. Of the 12 non-quality starts, you are bound to win 3 or 4 just by luck or by him having a good outing that didnt qualify (8IP 4ER or 5.2IP 2ER). Basically, if things break the way the stats typically fall, Arroyo's consistency should have guaranteed the sox 20 wins in his 32 starts, which is a 63% win % and if every sox pitcher did that, the sox would win 102 games....

 

Your twisting stats and ignoring any inteligent posts. His ERA+ was under 100. 100 is league average. That means he was below average. An average pitcher will win half of their starts. The fact we won more than half of Arroyos starts is because we have a good offense. An average offense will not win 20 games with Arroyo's output last year.

[TheRivernator]

Your twisting stats and ignoring any inteligent posts. His ERA+ was under 100. 100 is league average. That means he was below average. An average pitcher will win half of their starts. The fact we won more than half of Arroyos starts is because we have a good offense. An average offense will not win 20 games with Arroyo's output last year.

 

look at the league average for starting pitchers. He is right at it.

 

Also, an average pitcher should win half their starts? What kind of dumbass post is that? So why doesnt everybody average 16 wins? That is half their starts right?

[guapo34]

look at the league average for starting pitchers. He is right at it.

 

Also, an average pitcher should win half their starts? What kind of dumbass post is that? So why doesnt everybody average 16 wins? That is half their starts right?

 

 

The team should win half the starts, you know what i meant.

[GhostofMalzone]

For those of you who badmouth Arroyo as he leaves town as a "bad pitcher" or that he was inconsistent, do your f***ing homework. You did the same thing as JD walked out the door, the same thing as Clemens left etc, you assassinate the players that leave either by FA or trade and it makes me sick.

 

Adam Vinatieri

"I f***ing Hate The Colts. Don't Give Me Any Of This "thanks For The Memories" ********. If This s*** Is True Adam Is Worse Than Johnny. He Is Nothing To Me And We Must Burn An Effigy Of Him Before The Afc Championship Next Year"......................Youkilis rules.

 

Bronson Arroyo

"Look if you're not good enough to be on the team then we're going to trade you. I dont care if you signed for a hometown discount ... if you can't cut it ... goodbye"..................MC Hammer

 

Johnny Damon

"hate him. hate roger. always will. i hope his weak arm falls off trying to throw out crisp on an inside the park home run!!!".............................Vegassoxfan

 

 

I never thought I'd side with a Yankee fan on anything concerning the Red Sox. But, TheRivernator is right on this one.

I've been a Sox fan for 50 years and it's shameless how some fans react to departing players. The word for a long time was that players didn't want to come to Boston, because of the media and the fans, the media I could believe, but I always thought that New England sports fans were above this.

It really has turned into the "What Have You Done For Me Lately" generation.

[riverside sluggers]

Including Johnny Damon, so if Sox fans are going to play that hand for the Arroyo situation, then why take a different stance when it comes to Damon.

 

Again I say, its still hard for you to understand?? He went to the Yankees... of course we are going to criticize him when he leaves and call him a traitor. Thats how the rivalry goes. If you go to the dark side... we're going to let you know how we feel about it

 

The Rivernator: you assassinate the players that leave either by FA or trade and it makes me sick.

 

Again as I said before, another thread made by you thats quickly become a red sox vs yankees argument. Oh yes we crush any loyalty we had for ever damn player we have had. I guess thats why O-Cab had those long standing ovations, IMO Kevin Millar will also on May 5 (1st game at Fenway)

 

So will in the future see Bill Mueller (try & find a post that "assasinates him), Derek Lowe, Pedro Martinez, Doug Mirabelli, Bronson Arroyo, Dave Roberts (try & find a post that "assasinates him), and yes I look forward to giving Bronson his due as well.

 

And Ghost of Malzone: That is how MCHammer has always thought about Bronson, its not just because he is leaving for another team

[TheRivernator]

Again I say, its still hard for you to understand?? He went to the Yankees... of course we are going to criticize him when he leaves and call him a traitor. Thats how the rivalry goes. If you go to the dark side... we're going to let you know how we feel about it

 

 

 

Again as I said before, another thread made by you thats quickly become a red sox vs yankees argument. Oh yes we crush any loyalty we had for ever damn player we have had. I guess thats why O-Cab had those long standing ovations, IMO Kevin Millar will also on May 5 (1st game at Fenway)

 

So will in the future see Bill Mueller (try & find a post that "assasinates him), Derek Lowe, Pedro Martinez, Doug Mirabelli, Bronson Arroyo, Dave Roberts (try & find a post that "assasinates him), and yes I look forward to giving Bronson his due as well.

 

And Ghost of Malzone: That is how MCHammer has always thought about Bronson, its not just because he is leaving for another team

 

Okay, let's see....

People hated Millar last season during the yr, that kinda doesnt make for a true "assassination" seeing as everyone was already looking forward to a non-Millar season.

 

Mueller was touted as "old, slow, and injury prone" once you got Lowell and Lowell was touted as a "guy who will turn it around in the small ballpark and hit 40HRs". I even saw a post on another sox site saying that Mueller was inconsistent and unclutch. He did have the biggest hit in sox history in 2004 and was top 10 in BAw/RISP.

 

Derek Lowe? He wasnt assassinated on his way out the door? Have you forgotten? We don't need that party animal, he cheats on his wife, he's a drunk, he's a mental case, LA can have him, etc. etc. etc.

 

Pedro was CRUCIFIED for leaving. "He played us" "He was deteriorating". There was even a report in the Globe that his rotator cuff was almost 90% torn. Let me just say as a medical person that a 90% tear in the rotator cuff makes the pitching motion completely impossible. He was the most dominant sox pitcher for their era EVER and he was pushed out the door like a beaten dog.

 

Roberts wasnt a starter, Mirabelli wasnt a full time starter. I dont think you would find assassination posts on Andy Dominique or Abe Alvarez either. Your big time players get ripped when they leave. It is almost like a gang, you have to go through the line and get punched in the gut as you try to leave.....

[riverside sluggers]

Your big time players get ripped when they leave. It is almost like a gang, you have to go through the line and get punched in the gut as you try to leave.....

 

ok, first stop putting f***ing words in my mouth

 

Those players that I have mentioned that have will get standing ovations from the Fenway Faithful when they return who miss all of them. You make blatant posts thats always the same, thinking that all Sox fans think alike that you have wrapped up in your little imagination. "You fans rip players when they leave, you fans are not loyal as us Yankee fans are." Go find posts that say f*** Bill Mueller, Im waiting...

 

to talksox mods, sorry for my vulgar comments. each thread thats made makes talksox members hostile. And to other yankee fans who frequent this site, this nowhere near is aimed at you. With you guys its fun 2 rip back and forth about sox vs yanks, on the other hand rivernator makes it an agenda of his

[ORS]

Holy crap, Rivernator, you just broke my sanctimonious bull-s*** detector. They only way your thread holds any water is if you can show that anyone's opinion changed since the trade was made. If their opinion of him is consistent both pre and post-trade, then they aren't flip-flopping to take shots at him on his way out the door, as you suggest. In other words, nothing to see here.......other than some blatant baiting of Sox fans by another prick Yankee fan, or, as some like to call it, trollish behavior.

[The Monster is my Mom]

Don't worry about Bronson. I don't think he reads our posts. It's just the opinions of our posters. If any of them came face to face with Bronson, I am sure they would greet him warmly and ask for his autograph.

 

 

I'd like to confess that I am Bronson Arroyo!

[guapo34]

Okay, let's see....

People hated Millar last season during the yr, that kinda doesnt make for a true "assassination" seeing as everyone was already looking forward to a non-Millar season.

 

Mueller was touted as "old, slow, and injury prone" once you got Lowell and Lowell was touted as a "guy who will turn it around in the small ballpark and hit 40HRs". I even saw a post on another sox site saying that Mueller was inconsistent and unclutch. He did have the biggest hit in sox history in 2004 and was top 10 in BAw/RISP.

 

Derek Lowe? He wasnt assassinated on his way out the door? Have you forgotten? We don't need that party animal, he cheats on his wife, he's a drunk, he's a mental case, LA can have him, etc. etc. etc.

 

Pedro was CRUCIFIED for leaving. "He played us" "He was deteriorating". There was even a report in the Globe that his rotator cuff was almost 90% torn. Let me just say as a medical person that a 90% tear in the rotator cuff makes the pitching motion completely impossible. He was the most dominant sox pitcher for their era EVER and he was pushed out the door like a beaten dog.

 

Roberts wasnt a starter, Mirabelli wasnt a full time starter. I dont think you would find assassination posts on Andy Dominique or Abe Alvarez either. Your big time players get ripped when they leave. It is almost like a gang, you have to go through the line and get punched in the gut as you try to leave.....

 

 

Millar sucked, horribly, for 2 years. He can be compared well to Jason Giambi before his resurgence last year, and the Yankees tried to void his contract.

 

I don't know ANYBODY criticizing Bill Mueller. Just about every red sox fan would love to have had him back. The decision to let him leave was because he wanted a 3 year contract. For someone like him, that is a risk. Thats not blasting the guys, its a fact. People are saying Lowell could come here and put up good HR numbers becasue very recently he has, while playing in Florida. No one is saying this is a sure thing, far from it. He is definately our biggest question mark, but was the price of acquiring Josh Beckett.

 

Derek Lowe, I will always appreciate how well he pitched in the post season. When starters go on 3 days rest in the playoffs the station covering the game generally runs a stat about how past pitchers have struggled in this situation. Lowe beat the yankees in game 7 on 2!!! days rest. He was just terribly inconsistent and got a ton of money. Again, not blasting the guy, its just a fact hes not worth that contract.

 

Pedro. If you want to see what Red Sox fans think of him then watch the game if he pitches against us for the Mets this year. I think he deserves a standing ovation longer than Ripken got when he broke the consecutive games played record. He has lost 8 mph on his fastball and his HR numbers have gone up. He has gone from the best pitcher in the history of the game to above average, and there is good reason to believe he will continue to get worse with his shoulder. Thats an honest opinion. Giving him a big 4 year contract would've been risky. I would've supported it and hoped everything turned out well if the Red Sox gave it to him, but it would've made me nervous.

 

 

Your opinion is mainly responding to what the press has said. The Boston Media sucks and does not speak for the general fan base. ESPECIALLY not Shaughnessy.

[a700hitter]

Including Johnny Damon, so if Sox fans are going to play that hand for the Arroyo situation, then why take a different stance when it comes to Damon.

You are missing a very important distinction. While it is a business for the players and management, it is not a business for the fans. Fans (short for fanatics) are emotional by nature. Emotion is our investment in the team. But if we throw a guy under the bus, which we haven't done to Arroyo, he could care less. We are meaningless in the business relationship between ownership and the players. Similarly, it is not hypocritical for fans to be emotionally upset that Damon left for more money to go to our sworn enemy, but welcome the trade of Arroyo as part of the business, because it improves the team. I don't get what your point is about the behavior of Red Sox fans. We are free to like who we want and to turn on whomever we want whenever we want. Usually, we have good reason, and in the case of Arroyo, no one has turned on him, we still like him, but we like the trade. What is it that you don't get? BTW take your own advice and convince the other Yankee fans to cheer Wells when he shows up at the Stadium.

[CalvnHobs6]

Just a quick thing on "blasting" Derek Lowe - he got the biggest ovation of all (with the exception of Pesky) on the ring ceremony. He didn't leave with hard feelings - the guy was one of the biggest reasons we won the WS. He just wasn't offered a contract, and was offered a pretty hefty one from a team that showed interest. No big deal then.

 

Stop grouping Sox fans into one category. People who are anti-Mueller are all morons. It's a completely different category than Damon-haters. And though I am not in Boston - I believe the globe posted a new article every other freakin' day with some Damon interview after he was gone with him saying how much he loved Boston and what-not. So they're trying to spin us against him? They're giving him a chance to save face.

 

Millar haters have always been Millar haters, including myself.

 

Pedro did not deserve a contract based on his past, enough said. He was unbelievably amazing for his tenure in Boston, but he didn't deserve the money he was going to receive, and the Sox know that. Pedro should and will be getting a standing ovation at every start he'll ever make in Boston. There's no Pedro hating.

 

Final point- I don't think there has been any real Arroyo hating...or any new Arroyo hating. He was a hell of a guy who showed how much he wanted to stay in Boston, knowing full well that doing so put him at risk considering him being on the trade block all of his years in Boston. His agents told him so, and begged him not to do it. It's tough trading a guy that the fans love like Arroyo, but we're not all entirely devastated, as we got a potential masher for years to come. I am happy in a bittersweet way about this trade. I'm happy that Arroyo will get to have a full season in a rotation this year. I'm happy we get to see what Wily Mo can do. I'm sad that no matter how you look at it and how much you hope, baseball will always be a business first.

[He Hate Me]

I dont think Damon should get a standing O of any sort in Boston. He's a Yankee now. I completely agree with the sentiment of "anywhere but New York." I woulda been crushed had Brosius somehow wound up on the Red Sox after the 98 or 99 season. Some things you just don't do.

[Beckett95]

Bronson Arroyo has always been a good clubhouse guy and probaly had good chemistry with everyone else, but as a pitcher he was just another average joe. His career stats are almost the exact same as Jeff Suppan's (Suppan has pitched in more games though since hes 3 years older). His role on this team this year would have been spot starter/long reliever, which isnt a hard position to find. He just wasnt needed on the team and if you can get someone with as much talent as Willy Mo, a possible 40 HR guy, for a long-reliever/spot starter, you make that deal.

[Rosey]

Are you retarded, well, maybe you are.

 

ohhhh MJ....I'm disappointed to say the least. You couldn't do it could you? Couldn't stick with your Yankees. What is it that draws you to the Red Sox? Come out MJ....out of the closet.

 

Plus....you and I had a vicious word fight about Med students or Dr's using the word retarded the way you do. You know how I feel about that. It only validates my feelings I mentioned before.

 

Sad:(

 

Go ahead and go off on me ....it won't matter.

[Cityofchampions33]

Man, everything was good when he was gone, look what happens when he comes back.