Alex Gonzalez>>>>

[MC Hammer]

 

Wow, that is one huge contradiction. Call me crazy, but I'll take the guy that produces more as a #2 hitter than the guy that "fits the role" better (whatever the f*** that means) 10 times out of 10.

I was just saying Rents fits the mold better than Loretta. I didn't say I'd take him over Loretta, but if your looking for a prototype 2 hitter, Rents is the better option.

[He Hate Me]

Career Rate Stats

 

Renteria: .288/.345/.399/.743, 61 AB/HR, 7.2 AB/K, 34.9 AB/GIDP

Loretta: .301/.365/.408/.773, 68 AB/HR, 9.5 AB/K, 38.5 AB/GIDP

 

I fail to see how ER kills Loretta. It takes him 7 less ABs to hit a tater, that's it. Comparable SLG, but Loretta is better at making contact, hits for a higher average, and gets on base at a higher rate while hitting into less DPs. Care to rephrase?

 

you're looking at averages. How many ABs does Loretta average per season? Too many times people start throwing out averages because of the limited time someone plays and forgets that no matter how good their average is, they have to play on the field. Actualy playing time to me is more important than any other stat. I dont care if a guy averages 1 hr per 5 AB if he has only had 10 ABs in 50 games.

[He Hate Me]

Renteria had played hurt this last season, so that was noticeable

 

Wells there's also Loretta's higher career OBP of .365 compared to Rent's .345.

Loretta's bound to hit 12-16 Hrs. Better than Rent's mark of just 8.

Loretta also K's a lot less

 

Im having a hard time thinking that Rent is the better #2 hitter

 

Rent stays on the field. I'd rather have someone playing whose AVERAGES are lower than the guy sitting on the bench or on the DL.

[riverside sluggers]

you're looking at averages. How many ABs does Loretta average per season? Too many times people start throwing out averages because of the limited time someone plays and forgets that no matter how good their average is, they have to play on the field. Actualy playing time to me is more important than any other stat. I dont care if a guy averages 1 hr per 5 AB if he has only had 10 ABs in 50 games.

 

ok so now you're going to say Loretta is a lock to be on the DL? Anyways dont know where you got your stats, but Loretta has averaged 538 AB's over the last 3 seasons. Is it really foolish to think he will bounce back moving from PETCO to Fenway?

[He Hate Me]

ok so now you're going to say Loretta is a lock to be on the DL? Anyways dont know where you got your stats, but Loretta has averaged 538 AB's over the last 3 seasons. Is it really foolish to think he will bounce back moving from PETCO to Fenway?

 

no I'm not sayin that at all. It's just that certain players have a problem with being able to stay on the field. Most of them don't suddenly turn the page on that trend in their mid 30's.

[ORS]

you're looking at averages. How many ABs does Loretta average per season? Too many times people start throwing out averages because of the limited time someone plays and forgets that no matter how good their average is, they have to play on the field. Actualy playing time to me is more important than any other stat. I dont care if a guy averages 1 hr per 5 AB if he has only had 10 ABs in 50 games.

Using 3-2-1 WARP (WARP is dependent on games played) over the last 3 years, Loretta is 3.31 wins better than Renteria, and that includes an inury year (last year) for Loretta.

[He Hate Me]

Using 3-2-1 WARP (WARP is dependent on games played) over the last 3 years, Loretta is 3.31 wins better than Renteria, and that includes an inury year (last year) for Loretta.

 

After OPS, I have no clue what the other new formulas mean

[ORS]

WARP is Wins Above Replacement Player. I do not know how it is calculated, but it is an all inclusive stat that measures a players offensive and defensive runs contribution and turns them into wins based on the number of runs per win for the team they played on. 3-2-1 WARP is a way of weighting a players stats over the last three years.

 

(3*last year + 2*the year before + 1*3 years ago)/6

 

WARP is dependent on the total number of outs made by the player that year. So, even when Loretta's heaviest weighted year was the year he played the least, he still kicks Renteria's ass in average WARP over the last three years.

[He Hate Me]

WARP is Wins Above Replacement Player. I do not know how it is calculated, but it is an all inclusive stat that measures a players offensive and defensive runs contribution and turns them into wins based on the number of runs per win for the team they played on. 3-2-1 WARP is a way of weighting a players stats over the last three years.

 

(3*last year + 2*the year before + 1*3 years ago)/6

 

WARP is dependent on the total number of outs made by the player that year. So, even when Loretta's heaviest weighted year was the year he played the least, he still kicks Renteria's ass in average WARP over the last three years.

 

I can't even prepare a proper reply to this since this is the first time I've ever heard of WARP. My only question is who was Loretta's Replacement and who was Renteria's? Also if Lorettas replaceemnt played a lot more games than rent's, does that affect it?

[MC Hammer]

I can't even prepare a proper reply to this since this is the first time I've ever heard of WARP. My only question is who was Loretta's Replacement and who was Renteria's? Also if Lorettas replaceemnt played a lot more games than rent's, does that affect it?

It actually has nothing to do with who is replacing them ... if I understand the stat properly.

[He Hate Me]

It actually has nothing to do with who is replacing them ... if I understand the stat properly.

 

But the stat says Wins Above Replacement player. :dunno:

[ORS]

Replacement is considered to be what you would expect from the typical bench player or minor leaguer coming to fill in if the player got hurt, but they don't look at rosters to establish replacement level; it is the same for every player. RARP (runs above replacement player) is calculated by taking the players EqA (equivalent average - a combination of H, TB, BB, IBB, HBP, SB, CS, TPA) and converting it to EqR (equivalent runs - similar to runs created metrics). Then they take the league average EqA, convert it to EqR, and then multiply that by .73. This is the replacement level. By that calculation, it shows that replacement level is about 73% of league average on the offensive side of the equation. I haven't found any details about the defensive side, but that should give you an idea of what replacement level means.

[MC Hammer]

But the stat says Wins Above Replacement player. :dunno:

Replacement level is the *expected* level of performance the average team can obtain if it needs to replace a starting player at minimal cost.

 

Individual replacements can perform above or below the expected level, but that does not change what the expectation was at the time of the decision.

 

Specific teams may have better-than replacement level players available in their own systems. This does not change the concept of replacement level -- it shows that team context is important when evaluating particular decisions. If *all* teams had better-than replacement-level players easily available, then that would indicate that your level is set too low.

 

 

 

EDIT: DAMN YOU ORS

[He Hate Me]

Replacement is considered to be what you would expect from the typical bench player or minor leaguer coming to fill in if the player got hurt, but they don't look at rosters to establish replacement level; it is the same for every player. RARP (runs above replacement player) is calculated by taking the players EqA (equivalent average - a combination of H, TB, BB, IBB, HBP, SB, CS, TPA) and converting it to EqR (equivalent runs - similar to runs created metrics). Then they take the league average EqA, convert it to EqR, and then multiply that by .73. This is the replacement level. By that calculation, it shows that replacement level is about 73% of league average on the offensive side of the equation. I haven't found any details about the defensive side, but that should give you an idea of what replacement level means.

 

I'm not sure which I'm more impressed over. The fact that someone sat there and thought this up or the fact that you took the time out to explain it. In other words, he's better than average in his position according to the stats categories used by WARP.

 

Question, can a player who plays 50 games have a better WARP than someone who plays 160 games?

[ORS]

Absolutely, it all depends on how high their level of play was during the 50 games they played. Just imagine 50 games of ARod at 3B vs. 160 games of Felix Escalona.

[He Hate Me]

Absolutely, it all depends on how high their level of play was during the 50 games they played. Just imagine 50 games of ARod at 3B vs. 160 games of Felix Escalona.

 

yeah but Loretta and Rent are nowhere that far apart in terms of numbers. It's an interesting stat, just a little hard for me to accept. Any other interesting WARPs out there? like good WARPs on bad teams and vice versa.

[ORS]

1-3 WARP: Meh, who cares

4-5 WARP: Pretty good contributor, averagish

6-9 WARP: Good to very good

10+ WARP: Outstanding

 

Todd Helton averaged 10.85 WARP over the last 6 years, while the Rockies have averaged 73 wins.

[He Hate Me]

1-3 WARP: Meh, who cares

4-5 WARP: Pretty good contributor, averagish

6-9 WARP: Good to very good

10+ WARP: Outstanding

 

Todd Helton averaged 10.85 WARP over the last 6 years, while the Rockies have averaged 73 wins.

 

wat site are you getting this from? It actually sounds interesting

[ORS]

WARP is a BaseballProspectus stat. Go to their home page, and enter any player in the search window at the top of the page, then click on their DT card (those are free). You have to subscribe to look at PECOTA, which is a projection system.

[seabeachfred]

Rivernator, the one thing you DON'T want to do is underestimate Mark Loretta. Take it from me because I know the guy personally, he is going to be a real steal for us. Mark can do everything but his with tremendous power, but he will hit his share of homers and he will be a terrific clutch hitter and ballplayer. You can take that to the bank.

[riverside sluggers]

ah let him think that. Then 1 sox/yankees game will come at Fenway Park in a tied game that will see Loretta hit a walkoff shot against Kyle Farnsworth.

[TheRivernator]

Rivernator, the one thing you DON'T want to do is underestimate Mark Loretta. Take it from me because I know the guy personally, he is going to be a real steal for us. Mark can do everything but his with tremendous power, but he will hit his share of homers and he will be a terrific clutch hitter and ballplayer. You can take that to the bank.

 

I am not doubting that he had a great career and will give you OBP, which he even did in his worst statistical year. I just doubt that a team hurting for offense such as the padres would part with a key cog to their lineup for a backup catcher if something wasnt up. Knowing a guy personally doesnt all of a sudden make him good. I knew Rico Brogna, and I played with Lance Niekro and I'll tell ya what, they were cool and all, but I dont think me knowing them will make them stellar. It is up to them.....

[TheRivernator]

ah let him think that. Then 1 sox/yankees game will come at Fenway Park in a tied game that will see Loretta hit a walkoff shot against Kyle Farnsworth.

 

I'd be lying if I said that I wasnt worried about Farns. Where there is fire, there is a chance to get burned. If last yr was a true indicator of what he will bring to the table for the next 3 yrs, then great. He finally harnessed his stuff and was basically a control and power freak last yr. But, I never really trust hard throwing relievers because they just seem to lose it rather quickly one day, especially the quirky ones (Wohlers, Rocker, Koch to name few). I just hope he loses it after 2010 or so....

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Haha...John Rocker...oh man.

[seabeachfred]

Rivernator, I have seen Loretta play for a long long time and I still hold to my strong belief that he is going to have a stellar year for us. How about we make a bet than my guy outhits your second baseman this year and has a higher fielding average?

[TheRivernator]

Rivernator, I have seen Loretta play for a long long time and I still hold to my strong belief that he is going to have a stellar year for us. How about we make a bet than my guy outhits your second baseman this year and has a higher fielding average?

 

fielding % argument is like asking does a bear s*** in the woods. The avg, hmmmm, I think Id take that bet....

[seabeachfred]

Very good my friend. Your on. Does $25.00 sound modest enough for both of us?