Duquette VS Epstein

[Irish Jay]

Why has the vast majority of Red Sox Nation forgotten about the lenghthy contributions Dan Duquette made to the World Series team of 2004 ??

The core of that team were guys Duquette brought in. Few would argue that the Sox could have won a world series without the likes of Derek Lowe, Pedro, Manny, Varitek and Johnny Damon. However all you here about is how Epstein finally got the team over the hump.

 

Did Epstein make some good pickups? Sure. Schilling was a great asset to the team and trading Nomar was a great plus. However due to the media manipulation and the way the majority of the population think as though they are told to, most people HATE Duquette for no reason at all. Let's remember Duquette paved the way for the Red Sox by firing the worst manager to ever coach the Red Sox Jimy Williams!!

 

Think about the trade Duquette made. Heathcliffe Slocumb for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek!!! That may have gone down as one of the best trades in the last two decades. Lowe and Varitek were huge parts to the Word series team yet all we here about is how Duquette made an awful decision in bringing Carl Everett to town. Meanwhile Epstein lost out on Pedro,refused to re-sign Lowe and signed Rentereia to a huge contract while letting the sure handed Cabrerra walk. Yet the masses are all thrilled because Theo is back!! Life for Red Sox Nation would not have gone on had we not gotten him back....just ask the guys at the Boston Globe or WEEI.

[guapo34]

I've always felt Duquette was underapreciated. Theres a good chance we don't win the world series without his time with the club. He didn't just trade for Pedro with Boston either. He was the guy in charge in Montreal when they traded for him. He traded for the guy twice!

 

 

One thing he was terrible at was developing players. He seemed to pretty much give up on the farm system in his final years here. He also left other clubs frustrated when talking trades. He never returned phone calls and that bothered a lot of people.

[ORS]

Let's no gloss over the botched Teixeirra negotiations after drafting him or the Bagwell trade. Duquette was all about proven MLB talent, so part of the WS core does go to his credit, but Theo brought in the pieces that put them over the hump. Schilling, Foulke, Mueller, and Ortiz played as much a part as the Duquette guys did.

[a700hitter]

Duke is okay with me. At his core he was a fan. I haven't forgotten that he was at Game 4 in St. Louis on his own dime. That showed me something.

[26 to 6]

I like Duquette...he let Clemens walk allowing him to come to us two years later

 

..but seriously, all very good points Jay

[ksushi]

I am, quite obviously, a big fan of a good farm system. I don't think I have to tell you what I think of the Duke.

[guapo34]

Let's no gloss over the botched Teixeirra negotiations after drafting him or the Bagwell trade. Duquette was all about proven MLB talent, so part of the WS core does go to his credit, but Theo brought in the pieces that put them over the hump. Schilling, Foulke, Mueller, and Ortiz played as much a part as the Duquette guys did.

 

 

He didn't trade Bagwell, and there were indications that Texeirra wouldn't sign unless he recieved more money than would've been imaginable at the time. Obviously its very easy to look back now and say that was a huge mistake. At the time I'm not sure it was criticized so heavily.

 

No one has said Theos guys weren't extremely important in the championship. No one is that stupid.

[Cityofchampions33]

There is a very big line as to how much credit Duquette gets and how much Theo gets.

Dan brought in the likes of Pedro, and yes he deff ripped Seattle for Tek and Lowe. Manny goes in as a wash because of his ridiculously bloated contract and in some people's opinion he shouldv'e let manny go abck to CLE where he was happy. However in the process, he drained our farm, built up our salary, finished behind the Blue Jays in some cases in the AL East, and lets not forget the Rocket episode.

Theo brought in players such as Mueller, Foulke, Schilling, Timlin, Ortiz, etc. and for what? Next to NOTHING. Not only did he sign quality players for some no-names and low salaries, but he also re-filled our minors with talent of which we talk about becoming big stars later, and also has set us up to win perenially for the upcoming years.

Now some might say, but Theo let Pedro, and signed the wrong SS. Yeah but theyre not exactly his fault. Pedro decided that us offering him what he deserves was a slap in the face, and lets face it, we're in a world where money talsk, so he joined his brotehr Omar in New York. As for Renteria, yes it turned out a mistake, but pre-signing him, he was overall a much better, or at least more secure choice than OCab, it wasn't Theo's fault "the dirt was too bumpy".

The line comes down as follows: Yeah, Dan helped, but he hurt us in the long term while doing it. Lucky for us Theo has given us a better outlook on the future, and got us over the hump in 2004.

[ORS]

He didn't trade Bagwell, and there were indications that Texeirra wouldn't sign unless he recieved more money than would've been imaginable at the time. Obviously its very easy to look back now and say that was a huge mistake. At the time I'm not sure it was criticized so heavily.

 

No one has said Theos guys weren't extremely important in the championship. No one is that stupid.

That's right, it was Gorman. Regarding Teixeirra, reports have him trying to bully Teixeirra into signing for less, which upset his father and ruined any chance for further negotiations. So, he botched that deal by his actions, not by making a value decision.

[krazeebrainz]

The major difference between Theo and Duquette is postponed gratification. Theo is an ideal G.M. because he not only manages to sign ball players that will make an instant impression on the field, but manages to maintain and build the farm as well. We as Red Sox fans have never seen a front office do this to this extent before.

 

Yes, Theo did sign Renteria who didn't work out as well as we'd hoped last year. But in all honesty, how could you blame him for signing him? Renteria was known not only for his gold glove caliber play at short, but was also revered as a solid hitter. I don't blame Theo for signing Renteria at all. I was upset when Cabrera wasn't resigned because what he brought cannot be bought. Orlando brought the team together and was the missing link that fueled the team's chemistry. All of those wacky hand shakes and gestures were not only fun to watch as funs, but defined the 2004 team's attitude. I have never seen a baseball team have more fun than the one that we loved in 2004. That team truly was special...

 

With all of this said, I think that Theo not only has an eye for talent but also has one for chemistry. I honestly feel that he and others in that front office can sense if a particular player is going to fit the complexion of the existing team. Call me crazy, but given the Yankee's line-up in the recent past, there is no reason why they shouldn't have won the WS at least once in the past 3 years. I honestly feel that what separates "good" teams from "great" teams is chemistry. Hopefully the front office will continue to add players that will, with any luck, gel as the team in 2004 did.

 

[Soxfan1]

I think with all the years before we needed someone to blame. It automatically goes to Duqqute. When the sox started spending cash Theo played his cards right.

 

No, we would not have won it all without him.

 

Yes he still should be considered a good GM.

[jsinger121]

the sox were about 100,000 apart when they tried to sign teixeira. they had ample opportunity to sign him. also the scout in charge of signing him alienated teixeira's family

[schillingouttheks]

Sure I'll thank him for the players he brought in but I still think the guy's nothing special. I mean honestly, we wouldn't have had Millar at 1B all these previous seasons if Duquette was nice to Teixeira's family, if memory serves me right. Didn't he pressure or bully Teixeira into signing quickly or make a quick decision and Mark's father didn't like it, so he wouldn't let him play in Boston? I think it was something like that.

[guapo34]

The guy traded for Pedro Martinez TWICE! Hes worse than epstien, but I'd take him over nearly half the GMs in the game today. Of course i think there are a lot of morons as GMs.

 

edit: and i'll believe the texeira negotiations thing when i see a link.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Mark Teixeira's father's high school teammate was Bucky Dent.

 

:dunno:

[riverside sluggers]

Why has the vast majority of Red Sox Nation forgotten about the lenghthy contributions Dan Duquette made to the World Series team of 2004 ??

The core of that team were guys Duquette brought in. Few would argue that the Sox could have won a world series without the likes of Derek Lowe, Pedro, Manny, Varitek and Johnny Damon. However all you here about is how Epstein finally got the team over the hump.

 

Did Epstein make some good pickups? Sure. Schilling was a great asset to the team and trading Nomar was a great plus. However due to the media manipulation and the way the majority of the population think as though they are told to, most people HATE Duquette for no reason at all. Let's remember Duquette paved the way for the Red Sox by firing the worst manager to ever coach the Red Sox Jimy Williams!!

 

Think about the trade Duquette made. Heathcliffe Slocumb for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek!!! That may have gone down as one of the best trades in the last two decades. Lowe and Varitek were huge parts to the Word series team yet all we here about is how Duquette made an awful decision in bringing Carl Everett to town. Meanwhile Epstein lost out on Pedro,refused to re-sign Lowe and signed Rentereia to a huge contract while letting the sure handed Cabrerra walk. Yet the masses are all thrilled because Theo is back!! Life for Red Sox Nation would not have gone on had we not gotten him back....just ask the guys at the Boston Globe or WEEI.

 

Want a quote from the "great" Dukey, from what I can recall? "At this time we belive Roger Clemens has reached his Twlight year. Therefore, we have chosen not to resign him and wish him the best of luck in his career."

[Irish Jay]

Roger Clemens for 5 straigh seasons was fat, overweight and unproductive. People blaming Duquette for letting him walk just are not paying much attention to the facts.

[riverside sluggers]

Wow you agree with him letting Roger walk, thats the first Red Sox fan Ive heard that from

[26 to 6]

Wow you agree with him letting Roger walk, thats the first Red Sox fan Ive heard that from

me too. Kind of surprising

[ORS]

Wow you agree with him letting Roger walk, thats the first Red Sox fan Ive heard that from

Here's another one. I would have let him walk. Look at his stats his last 4 years with the Sox, the ones after the Sox gave him a nice contract, and then look at a picture of him just before he left and then look at another from when he was in Toronto. The chubby-bunny was resting on his laurels while in Boston, got insulted, then got in shape finally. Duquette didn't f*** up by letting him go. He may have f***ed up by making statements that would motivate him to prove his doubter wrong, but the decision was a good one.

[a700hitter]

Make that three. How was Duke supposed to know that the Rocket would start an exercise regime that would transfer his body and revive his career. If we could only have one top flight expensive pitcher, Duke made the right move getting Pedro a year later and signing him to a long term contract.

[26 to 6]

You are all absolutely right. Looking at Clemens' 93-96 stats, they arent pretty.

 

But if it was me, I would have tried to hold on to him.

[Guns]

What might have been.

 

Good discussion for the January dog days...

 

Clem is a sore subject w/ me. A HOF pitcher who never won a meaningful game for the Sox. Yeah he finally won a big game his 17th season in the Majors his second season w/ the Yanks.

 

The Duke was a PITA in a lot of ways & it's probably safe to assume that he never heard of Dale Carnegie, but he wasn't wrong on Clem at that stage of Clem's career. In fact, Clem should have Duke on his Christmas card list forever for figuring out that Clem is motivated by negative energy.

 

Clem was pedestrian his last four years in Boston. 40-39 w/ an aggregate ERA of around 3.75. The big problem was his starts & IP for three of those four years.

 

Fraudger Clemens

 

I'll always remember him fondly as Mrs. Dave Stewart plus he looks great w/ eye liner...

[Guns]

As far as the title of this thread is concerned, I'm not in the Theo is God camp. I like the guy, but I give the entire organization a lot of the credit for the 2004 Championship.

 

They found the missing pieces & the entire TEAM put it all together.

 

FWIW, The Duke contributed these players:

 

Manny

Petey

DFL

Tek

Wake

Johnny

Mirabelli

Youk

Nomar for Mientkiewicz & Orlando

 

Don’t forget Lou either: Trot

 

Also, if Theo gets the most credit for 2004, then he gets the most "blame" for 2005 as that TEAM was more "his" than any of the others.

[TheMeanWalrus]

Fraudger Clemens

 

I'll always remember him fondly as Mrs. Dave Stewart plus he looks great w/ eye liner...

 

 

 

Mrs Dave Stewart he was

The single biggest fraud in MLB history, bar none

[Mr Crunchy]

if duquette had any people skills they wouldve built him a statue on city hall next to the one of auerbachs

 

he didnt

 

roger clemens??

 

how does a man with such a reputation as a warrior walk out of so many playoff games with

(1) trick hammy

(2) groin pull

(3) dave stewarts balls in his mouth

 

1 more comment on raja

how does the cy young award winner end up a +140 in game 7 of the pennant against the immortal jeff suppan,a stiff who couldnt even make our playoff roster the year before??

[TheMeanWalrus]

how does the cy young award winner end up a +140 in game 7 of the pennant against the immortal jeff suppan,a stiff who couldnt even make our playoff roster the year before??

 

 

 

Answer:

Anyone who watches baseball knew at best Roger would pitch just well enough to lose in that game and at worst it would be a pre-cursor to his "gutty" performance in Game 1 of the WS for Houston.

 

 

PS - Don't forget blisters and timely ejections for Old Blood & Guts

[nueva]

As far as the title of this thread is concerned, I'm not in the Theo is God camp. I like the guy, but I give the entire organization a lot of the credit for the 2004 Championship.

 

They found the missing pieces & the entire TEAM put it all together.

 

FWIW, The Duke contributed these players:

 

Manny

Petey

DFL

Tek

Wake

Johnny

Mirabelli

Youk

Nomar for Mientkiewicz & Orlando

 

Don’t forget Lou either: Trot

 

Also, if Theo gets the most credit for 2004, then he gets the most "blame" for 2005 as that TEAM was more "his" than any of the others.

[Wells]

I like Duquette...he let Clemens walk

I totally agree!!

 

but in all seriousness.. the Duke did have a great part in the 04 WS Championship Team..

 

a lot of the 2005 version I suspect was Management trying to get Duquette's fingerprints off the team.. which is why i believe that Trot could be gone at any time.. even though he was a Lou Gorman pick

[He Hate Me]

It's hard for me to think there is a comparison between Theo, who brought the Championship to Boston, and Dan who looked like he was having a seizure when he signed Manny to his deal.