Red Sox Ink Arroyo to 3 year 12 millon dollar deal

[jlcrss9]

Honestly, even though hes not the greatest pitcher ever, I like his attitude. He wont back down from anyone, which is a quality in a player I like.

[a700hitter]

I may be younger than you but I also have a brain.

That was unnecessary. I am of the opinion that when you put together a winner you keep the core together and do your maintenance on the periphery. You ride it out with the core for at least one or two years to see if they have another championship run or two in them. If you are going to replace parts of the core, you make sure that you upgrade at those positions. The Sox let Pedro and Lowe go and they didn't replace them with upgrades, and they let the pitching slip by trying to get by with low-cost high-risk choices like Matt Mantei and Wade Miller. This year they are going to take the field with a big downgrade in CF. If they were prepared to let him go, they should have had a contingency plan, which they clearly don't.

 

When you have an all-time great like Pedro, you keep him. You don't make a foolish bet on whether he has 2, 3 or 4 years left in his arm. Even if he only has two good years left, how are you going to replace an all-time great for those two years. The moves since 2004 were an unneccessary dismantling of that team. You can contrast their actions with the actions of the White Sox front office that moved quickly to keep Konerko (who is overpaid) and Garland and they built on their weaknesses by bringing in Thome (with a high price tag and near the end of his career) and Vasquez. They were willing to sacrifice Rowand-- a good cheap, young player, but in his best hitting days he would be a mediocre compared to a stud hitter like Thome. The White Sox are doing it the right way if they want to repeat. Maybe the Red Sox made the smart business choices for their bottom line, but I don't care about their bottom line. I am a fan. I like to see the best team they can put out on the field. I am not their GM or Controller ( and neither are you), so I don't care about their financial statement.

[ORS]

That was unnecessary. I am of the opinion that when you put together a winner you keep the core together and do your maintenance on the periphery. You ride it out with the core for at least one or two years to see if they have another championship run or two in them. If you are going to replace parts of the core, you make sure that you upgrade at those positions. The Sox let Pedro and Lowe go and they didn't replace them with upgrades, and they let the pitching slip by trying to get by with low-cost high-risk choices like Matt Mantei and Wade Miller. This year they are going to take the field with a big downgrade in CF. If they were prepared to let him go, they should have had a contingency plan, which they clearly don't.

 

When you have an all-time great like Pedro, you keep him. You don't make a foolish bet on whether he has 2, 3 or 4 years left in his arm. Even if he only has two good years left, how are you going to replace an all-time great for those two years. The moves since 2004 were an unneccessary dismantling of that team. You can contrast their actions with the actions of the White Sox front office that moved quickly to keep Konerko (who is overpaid) and Garland and they built on their weaknesses by bringing in Thome (with a high price tag and near the end of his career) and Vasquez. They were willing to sacrifice Rowand-- a good cheap, young player, but in his best hitting days he would be a mediocre compared to a stud hitter like Thome. The White Sox are doing it the right way if they want to repeat. Maybe the Red Sox made the smart business choices for their bottom line, but I don't care about their bottom line. I am a fan. I like to see the best team they can put out on the field. I am not their GM or Controller ( and neither are you), so I don't care about their financial statement.

I think it is fairly obvious that the Sox are rebuilding the core, something that the ChiSox didn't need to do yet because their core was a lot younger than the 2004 BoSox. You don't think the timing is right? Ok, fine, when is the right time?

[a700hitter]

There is a difference between rebuilding the core and breaking it down. The Sox broke down the core without replacing those guys with comparable players, so 2005 was too soon. Now that they have dismantled the core by letting Damon go, it is too late to ask the question. The team has been dismantled, but prior to having suitable replacements. Some would view their actions as unnecessarily premature.

[seabeachfred]

Manny, I have real misgivings about losing two of our pitchers. If an injury hits one of our starters, and need I say more about last year, we could be forced to force feed a young guy into the rotation who may not be ready. Don't be so anxious to get rid of Clement. This guy pitched some great ball for the first part of last year and he is capable of really coming into his own. He is still young and has great stuff.

[gosox613]

Manny, I have real misgivings about losing two of our pitchers. If an injury hits one of our starters, and need I say more about last year, we could be forced to force feed a young guy into the rotation who may not be ready. Don't be so anxious to get rid of Clement. This guy pitched some great ball for the first part of last year and he is capable of really coming into his own. He is still young and has great stuff.

There is some truth to that; however, when you have such gaping holes as CF, you cant be unwilling to give up any of your players in fear of injury. If we just kept a ton of starting picthers to avoid a disastrous hole in the rotation, we would get nowhere because we wouldnt trade them. Having a surplus of starters is a huge luxury and we are not in the position to hold on to extra starters: we need a CF. Plus, comparing to last year is not a great idea, you had schilling coming off of his injury; now hes been working on it all offsreason really hard, and you had wade miller coming off of an injury. Now that isnt the case, so we need not hoard our starters and sacrifice an opportunity to get a CF that we so greatly need.

[ORS]

There is a difference between rebuilding the core and breaking it down. The Sox broke down the core without replacing those guys with comparable players, so 2005 was too soon. Now that they have dismantled the core by letting Damon go, it is too late to ask the question. The team has been dismantled, but prior to having suitable replacements. Some would view their actions as unnecessarily premature.

Not true. They replaced Pedro and Lowe with Wells and Clement, and the lineup was improved with Renteria (offensive upgrade over OC). Neither of those pitching replacements were as good as Pedro, but both were better than Lowe was in 2004 (reg. season, he pulled some s*** out of his ass in the playoffs), so pitching was a wash. The core of the BP returned too, and Varitek was brought back for what many consider to be too long of a contract. They did try and give that core another shot, but Schilling was hurt, Foulke and Embree sucked, and some of the older guys (Damon, Mueller, Varitek) faltered down the stretch. They took a risk and it failed. Now they want to try and retool the club, which they have earned the right to do IMO.

[a700hitter]

Not true. Neither of those pitching replacements were as good as Pedro, but both were better than Lowe was in 2004 (reg. season, he pulled some s*** out of his ass in the playoffs), so pitching was a wash. ... They took a risk and it failed. Now they want to try and retool the club, which they have earned the right to do IMO.

It's their club, they don't have to earn the right to do anything, but you don't replace Pedro. Pedro + Lowe for Wells + Clement is not a wash.

[ORS]

It's their club, they don't have to earn the right to do anything, but you don't replace Pedro.

Potato, potahto. By saying they earned the right I mean they didn't blow up the roster a la the '97 Marlins. They gave it a shot, so I'm not upset about a restructure now.

 

Pedro + Lowe for Wells + Clement is not a wash.

Pedro+Lowe 2004: 399.7 IP, 4.59 ERA, 28-21, 66 GS

Wells+Clement 2005: 375 IP, 4.51 ERA, 28-13, 62 GS

 

Looks like a wash to me.

[a700hitter]

 

Pedro+Lowe 2004: 399.7 IP, 4.59 ERA, 28-21, 66 GS

Wells+Clement 2005: 375 IP, 4.51 ERA, 28-13, 62 GS

 

Looks like a wash to me.

Not! Pedro and Lowe were pitching for poor teams, neither of which made the playoffs. Let's not forget that they left behind an offense that scored over 900 runs for a record-breaking third straight year. Wells got pretty good run support. What was the run support for the others? If you asked any manager to take one of these two duos for one year, I think they would be unanimous in taking Pedro and Lowe over Wells and Clement. That would not even be close.

[riverside sluggers]

Lets keep in mind here, the team hasnt totally dismantled. Some areas have been improved on the defense, our much loved 05 Sox team was the 4th worst team on fielding. In 2004 they were ranked the 4th best. The opening day bullpens of 05 compared to the eventual 06 also sees a great uptick for us to be excited about.

 

2005 opening day pen

John Halama -released after 1-1 record with a 6.18 ERA

Blaine Neal- traded back to san Diego after 0-1 record with a 9.00 ERA

Matt Mantei- put on season DL after 1-0 record with a 6.49 ERA

Alan Embree- released after 1-4 record & 1 save with a 7.65 ERA

Mike Timlin- stood as the most reliable reliever of the season, 7-3 record & 13 saves with a 2.65 ERA

Keith Foulke- injury (physical/mental) marred season, 5-5 record & 15 saves with a 5.91 ERA

 

2006 opening day pen

**Bronson Arroyo

**Jonathan Papelbon

Guillermo Mota

Rudy Seanez

Julian Tavarez

Mike Timlin

Keith Foulke

 

Alex Cora is set to take over ss after Rent's 30 error season. Edgah's my boy and he will get a standing O this season, but Cora will provide more solid D at the middle of the infield. While providing decent offense such as .270 - .275, 7 Hrs, 50-65 RBIs

 

1st base, enough said. A tandem of Youk as the starter and JT Snow as the late innings def. replacement will overshadow Millar's horrid 05 season.

 

3rd base, Mueller's my boy but Lowell has the advantage of winning 2 golden gloves, one of which came this past season. Moving to fenway he could provide about the same or more offense than Mueller.

[ORS]

Not! Pedro and Lowe were pitching for poor teams, neither of which made the playoffs. Let's not forget that they left behind an offense that scored over 900 runs for a record-breaking third straight year. Wells got pretty good run support. What was the run support for the others? If you asked any manager to take one of these two duos for one year, I think they would be unanimous in taking Pedro and Lowe over Wells and Clement. That would not even be close.

Perhaps you should look at the years I included for the stats. That wasn't Pedro+Lowe from last year, it was from their last year with the Sox, 2004. But, you are on another rant, so why letting something silly like the facts get in your way.

[elsrbueno]

Lets keep in mind here, the team hasnt totally dismantled. Some areas have been improved on the defense, our much loved 05 Sox team was the 4th worst team on fielding. In 2004 they were ranked the 4th best. The opening day bullpens of 05 compared to the eventual 06 also sees a great uptick for us to be excited about.

 

2005 opening day pen

John Halama -released after 1-1 record with a 6.18 ERA

Blaine Neal- traded back to san Diego after 0-1 record with a 9.00 ERA

Matt Mantei- put on season DL after 1-0 record with a 6.49 ERA

Alan Embree- released after 1-4 record & 1 save with a 7.65 ERA

Mike Timlin- stood as the most reliable reliever of the season, 7-3 record & 13 saves with a 2.65 ERA

Keith Foulke- injury (physical/mental) marred season, 5-5 record & 15 saves with a 5.91 ERA

 

2006 opening day pen

**Bronson Arroyo

**Jonathan Papelbon

Guillermo Mota

Rudy Seanez

Julian Tavarez

Mike Timlin

Keith Foulke

 

Alex Cora is set to take over ss after Rent's 30 error season. Edgah's my boy and he will get a standing O this season, but Cora will provide more solid D at the middle of the infield. While providing decent offense such as .270 - .275, 7 Hrs, 50-65 RBIs

 

1st base, enough said. A tandem of Youk as the starter and JT Snow as the late innings def. replacement will overshadow Millar's horrid 05 season.

 

3rd base, Mueller's my boy but Lowell has the advantage of winning 2 golden gloves, one of which came this past season. Moving to fenway he could provide about the same or more offense than Mueller.

 

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

 

That's a positive spin on things, but yes, all of those things are positive.

 

Alex Cora should be as good if not better than Renteria defensively, and while he isn't the same player offensively, can come pretty close to matching Edgar's 2005 stats without the RBIs (because he won't be batting second).

 

It's almost impossible to downgrade from Millar's 05 season-- Youk/Snow will be better on BOTH offense and defense than Millar.

 

As much as I loved Bill Mueller, you're right there, too. Players are allowed to have 1 bad year, and even if Lowell doesn't regain his 2003-2004 form, he should be as good as Mueller offensively. Defensively, the gold glove speaks for itself.

 

The bullpen is deeper, stronger, and better. Foulke can't be much worse than he was in 2005, Timlin is Timlin, and Mota/Tavarez/Seanez will be better than Mantei/Embree/Neal. The one thing the bullpen lacks is a good lefty, but DiNardo and Alvarez will probably compete for that job. Not to mention Delcarmen and Hansen are waiting in the wings and that much closer to helping the team. The bullpen is a STRENGTH.

 

Also, the rotation will be stronger. Assuming Wakefield, Arroyo, and Clement match their 2005 numbers, Schilling will be better than 2005 based solely on the fact that he's HEALTHY and Beckett will be better than Wells.

 

You forgot to mention second base. A full season of Mark Loretta will be an improvement over Mark Bellhorn.

 

There are holes to fill, namely centerfield and outfielder # 4, but the Red Sox are hardly the 97 Marlins or anything close to it.

[Plumpamania]

Beckett/Schilling/Clement/Arroyo/Papelbon/Wakefield is immediately a better rotation: that was I think the FO's biggest concern.

[jsinger121]

what the red sox are doing is retooling and rebuilding at the same time. they are bringing in new players through trade or free agency and also incorporating their own minor league talent. there is nothing wrong with that and frankly it is the right way to go instead of signing the pedros and the damons of the world to ridiculous contracts when they are in their 30's no matter how much of a star player they are.

[a700hitter]

Perhaps you should look at the years I included for the stats. That wasn't Pedro+Lowe from last year, it was from their last year with the Sox, 2004. But, you are on another rant, so why letting something silly like the facts get in your way.

"Rant"? Why must you resort to such an abbrasive term? The important part of my post was the following:

If you asked any manager to take one of these two duos for one year, I think they would be unanimous in taking Pedro and Lowe over Wells and Clement. That would not even be close.

I tried to not be abbrassive in my response, but to be blunt any numbers comparison between Pedro/Lowe and Wells/Clement is pointless and ridiculous. Any manager takes Pedro/Lowe. It's a slam dunk.

[ORS]

I apologize if you think rant was abbrasive in that context. However, you have been fairly consistent in expressing anger about the FO letting certain players go, which at times seems like you are ranting. I never claimed that Wells+Clement were a better duo than Pedro+Lowe (although an argument could be made). My point was that they received similar production from them when you compare the '04/'05 numbers, which is why I called the pitching a wash, and it was a wash.

[a700hitter]

I understand their position. I happen to disagree with the approach. The White Sox have kept all of their key components. They didn't let the heart of their team walk away (konerko), and a good 1B is easier to find that a HOF pitcher or a leadoff CF.

[jsinger121]

the white sox also don't have a payroll over a 100 million to begin with so they could bring konerko back. its not like they have alot of guys making big money on that team like the red sox do. the red sox run a business and the red sox made a business decision when they decided it was not in the teams best interests to match the mets contract offer for pedro and the yankees contract offer for damon. pedro is a great pitcher but their is a good chance that his arm could go at any time because he has a history of arm problems(2001 and plus he was on the DL with the red sox at least once a season up until 2001 when was hurt for basically the entire year). not everyone is going to agree with the red sox decision but smart baseball fans know it would have been stupid to go to a 4th year for pedro or give damon 52 million.

[ORS]

I understand their position. I happen to disagree with the approach. The White Sox have kept all of their key components. They didn't let the heart of their team walk away (konerko), and a good 1B is easier to find that a HOF pitcher or a leadoff CF.

Yet, the White Sox did trade away a good CF, and part of the core, for an injury risk DH. If Thome can stay healthy, he will improve their lineup, but that means they are counting on a prospect CF to perform in his first chance.

 

EDIT: Plus, Konerko did leave more money on the table in B-more and took the hometown discount. Damon didn't.

[a700hitter]

I apologize if you think rant was abbrasive in that context. However, you have been fairly consistent in expressing anger about the FO letting certain players go, which at times seems like you are ranting. I never claimed that Wells+Clement were a better duo than Pedro+Lowe (although an argument could be made). My point was that they received similar production from them when you compare the '04/'05 numbers, which is why I called the pitching a wash, and it was a wash.

That tradeoff was not a wash, regardless of stats. We have no way of knowing Pedro/Lowe's 2005 stats if they had stayed with the sox. Pedro/Lowe are better. The 2005 team was weaker for letting them leave. I watch the team year- to- year. I don't run the team or share in their profits, so the long term means very little to me. I find little comfort in the hope that they are building a solid foundation for the future as I am watching Clement consistently miss his target by a foot or more against a bad team in September when Pedro could have started that game. But that's just me.

[jsinger121]

You want the foundation. Its down I-95 in pawtucket with Lester, Pedroia, Hansen, Marte, Delcarmen, Edgar Martinez.....Papelbon has already made the drive up I-95 to Boston but is still the foundation.

[a700hitter]

not everyone is going to agree with the red sox decision but smart baseball fans know it would have been stupid to go to a 4th year for pedro or give damon 52 million.

There is a difference between being a smart fan and a smart businessman. The smart businessman can accurately assess the financial risk/reward of a transaction. The "smart fan" knows the good players. Pedro/Lowe are better than Wells/Clement any time. Unless you are a GM , or you own a piece of the Sox, I am puzzled at why you apply a financial analysis to these player moves instead of analyzing whether it improves your team. The Sox got the dough. They are not a small market team. An additional $ 2-3 million/year for Damon and the risk that Pedro would crap out in his 4th year would not devastate this billion dollar franchise.

[jsinger121]

It would hurt a team that is still trying to pay off the debt they had on when they purchased the red sox. pedro is worth a 3 yr deal at most. damon not worth anything over 11 mil. they both left for the money while others like varitek and arroyo and ortiz took hometown discounts to stay here. they got their big money and that is all they were after. the red sox made a smart decision not to cave into both damon and pedro's demands because it would have hurt the team in the long run had they given those players the contracts they receieved from the mets and yankees respectively.

[a700hitter]

I am afraid that you have been drinking the FO kool aid. Management in sports is and always has been full of BS. They screamed about salaries when they had the reserve clause. They screamed that free agency would wreck the game financially. Yeah right. Keeping Pedro and Damon would have made the 2005 and 2006 teams stronger, and "in the long run" management is full of BS. If you would start to think like a fan, you would realize these nerdy suits in the FO are screwing up your favorite past-time--- watching winning Red Sox baseball. Instead they subject you to Matt Clement and now Willie Harris when you should be watching Pedro and Damon. Anyway, enjoy Clement and Harris and Stern. I can't.

[jsinger121]

They are stopgaps until they promote all the top prospects in the system to boston. im more concerned with the red sox longterm success than complaining about losing star players. the longterm success is 45 minutes away in pawtucket while the short term success took bigger money deals in other places when they could have gotten fair deals in boston. they chose the all mighty dollar over loyalty so be it with them. if the red sox win 85 games next season im not going to complain. id would rather have them start bringing in youth from our farm system than throwing big money at free agents already in their 30's.

[a700hitter]

I think we can agree to disagree, but I think 26 to 6 might back me up that this philosophy has not been very successful. Getting top ML talent has proven to be the better winning formula. This long-term approach is nothing new, and it is not unique to this ownership group. I have been hearing this tune for more than 30 years. They sang the same song when they let the '75-'78 team fall apart. That ownership group had a much smaller economic base than this ownership group, which makes today's FO somewhat more disappointing.

[ORS]

Like it or not, this is one the 29 teams that operate on a budget. With that in mind, as a fan, I want them to focus on the long-term because neglecting it can lead to some pretty bad baseball teams. Duquette was notorious for trading away the farm and bringing in "big name" players that were past their peak years. What did his teams accomplish? A couple of playoff appearances, but not much else. Yeah, he let Clemens walk and made the "twilight" remark, but it was pretty justified considering how out of shape and how poorly Clemens pitched for the duration of the 4-year deal they gave him. Yeah, he traded for Pedro and signed Manny, but he surrounded them with the likes of Jose Offerman, Dante Bichette, Bret Saberhagen, Hideo Nomo, and David Cone. All good players in their prime, but who weren't reliable in terms of performance or health when they were with the Sox. That method has been tried and it failed, let's try something new. Let's be the A's with a $130M budget. Imagine how f***ing dominating the A's would be if they had the cash to keep their post-1995 callups worth keeping. That's what I want.

[jsinger121]

Getting top stars is not the formula just ask the Yankees. Since they have raised the payroll to over 100 million they haven't won anything. They keep buying stars ever year and how many world series titles have they won since 2000. A big fat zero. they won when they had young homegrown talent come into its own mixed with some nice veteran players. not many teams have bought stars and won championships. marlins won in 2003 with homegrown talent, same with the angels, and yankees 1996-2000). Look at the Mets....they have bought talent the last few years and where has it got them....nowhere not even a sniff of the playoffs. buying talent is overrated in my mind and does not lead to a championship all the time. there are those certains time where it will but for the most teams that homegrow their own players will have greater success.

[a700hitter]

they won when they had young homegrown talent come into its own mixed with some nice veteran players.

The following key players from the most recent Yankee Dynasty were not home grown:

 

1.Tino

2.Knoblauch

3.Brosius

4.O'Neil

5.Cone

6.Clemens

7.Wells

8.Chili Davis

9.El Duque

10. Nelson

11. Stanton

12. Boggs

13. Girardi

14.Curtis

15. Strawberry

16. Gooden

17. david Justice

18. Denny Neagle

19. Cecil Fielder

20. Jimmy key

21. John Wetteland

22. Tim raines

23. Sierra

 

The following key players were homegrown:

 

1. Jeter

2. Posada

3. Bernie

4. Mo

5. Pettitte (left after '03)

6. Mendoza (left after '03)

 

Most of the homegrown guys are still with them, while they are winning nothing. Almost all of the imported top talent is gone. Tell me again why it is important to grow your own talent.