Did we just get Beckett?

[riverside sluggers]

an ace is the best starting pitcher of the team he represents

 

Wakefield led in wins, strikeouts, innings pitched, complete games, and lowest ERA

 

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Minor point, but I don't look at this staff and see 5 potential aces. I see 3 potential aces and a few 2-3 guys.

 

I was pointing out the pluses of of the projected members of the Sox starting staff? how did i call them all potential aces

[example1]

an ace is the best starting pitcher of the team he represents

 

Wakefield led in wins, strikeouts, innings pitched, complete games, and lowest ERA

 

------------

 

 

 

I was pointing out the pluses of of the projected members of the Sox starting staff? how did i call them all potential aces

 

it wasn't meant against you personally riverside... nothing personal.

 

I guess I know that the best pitcher on the staff is called that staff's ace, but it loses its meaning that way. I think of "ace" as referring to "legitimate ace" rather than de facto ace. Who is the "ace" of Kansas city, or Texas? I don't think they actually have one.

[Cityofchampions33]

Not every team has a bona-fide ace, such as KC, what riverside is saying is that he was the pitcher we could depend on, the pitcher that could stop the bleeding, and win big games, all of which Wake did.

[yeszir]

an ace is the best starting pitcher of the team he represents

 

Wakefield led in wins, strikeouts, innings pitched, complete games, and lowest ERA

 

But I still wouldn't call Wake the ace of last year. We had no ace. An ace is a guy who you can count on to get a win 100% of the time. You feel great throwing your ace out against whatever team wishes to face him (think Pedro). That's not the case with Wake.

[riverside sluggers]

All i know down the pennant stretch the starting pitcher i wanted to give the ball was Wake and he proved his worth in September. In 5 games had posted a 1.99 ERA, yeah 2005 def wasnt the case with him.

 

If not for the lack of run support Wakefield had in the second half, he wouldve been a 20 game winner which would have put him in the short list of Cy Young consideration.

[Cityofchampions33]

ace doesnt mean a very good pitcher, because like I said, then the KC Royals wouldn'thave one. An Ace is the team's best pitcher, and last year that was Wakefield.

[example1]

I would argue that KC DID NOT have an ace last year at all.

 

I know Wake had a good season last year, but that doesn't mean that every time he took the ball I was confident. I wasn't confident every time he took the ball. I worried, as I have every one of his starts the past 10 years or so, that he would give up some random homeruns or give up a few early and put us behind early. Wakefield is a good pitcher, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he was the ace of the staff. I also don't believe every team needs to have an "ace". If the "ace" sucks then there's no point in calling him the ace, is there?

 

Yeszir, I mostly agree with you. You count on an ace to BE ABLE to get you a win 100% of the time; Pedro, Schilling, Schmidt, RJ, those guys SHOULD keep you in every game and should be able to shut the other team down about 80% of the time.

 

Not every team has an ace. That's why its a big deal when a bonified ace is added to your club. Florida had three aces last year (Willis, Beckett and Burnett), all three of whom could shut the other team down on any given start.

 

If "ace" means best pitcher on your staff, which it very well might, then that means that Zach Grinke is an ace and Josh Beckett and AJ Burnett are not.

[Cityofchampions33]

More on the subject, in Bill James' book that he made in '04 he compared Beckett to Don Sutton by terms of win shares similarity. Sutton had his breakout year when he turned 26 and took off from there.

[CrespoBlows]

First of all, this is all if they play like they usually do, i never said we HAVE the best rotation i said we WILL HAVE the best rotation. Secondly, i dont remember the yankees supposedly having the best rotation and lineup at the begining of last year. The rotation had A LOT of questions, and we had had the best lineup the past two years. What I'm saying is, is that if Beckett doesn't get blisters, and can get 30 starts under his belt, along with the development of Papelbon, and Schilling coming back, we WILL have the best rotation in the AL. ALso, if Lowell hits his averaged 30 HRs and 100 RBIs, then we WILL have a VERY strong lineup. Then Mota, if he gets back to Dodger form, then we WILL have a much improved bullpen.

 

I guess you omitted the White Sox from that equation. I still would rank the White Sox as the best team in baseball because of that pitching staff.

[Cityofchampions33]

My bad, I totally forgot, yea the ChiSox are solid 1-5, though I'm not sold theyll have the same great years they had last year.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

the deffinition of ace is deffinitly tough....a lot of times people get confused with consistancy and potential. When I think of an ace I think of someone who is healthy, consistant, and can go the distance any game. Its expected of that pitcher to go 7 innings, save the bullpen, and gives his team the advantage to win. These are the players I consider an ace:

 

Curt Schilling

Randy Johnson

John Smoltz

Pedro Martinez

Roger Clemens

Roy Oswalt

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Jason Schmidt

Tim Hudson

Livan Hernandez

 

These are the guys who could be an ace with more consistancy and less injury problems:

(keep in mind, I don't think one excellent season makes you an ace like Willis and Carpenter)

 

Mark Buehrle (still young and needs to keep that era below 4.00)

Bartolo Colon (inconsistant)

Barry Zito (not the same guy he once was but shows flashes)

Rich Harden (couple more years he might be the best)

Dontrelle Willis (same as Harden)

Mark Prior (if he could just stay healthy)

Carlos Zambrano (guess you could already consider him an ace...one more season)

Ben Sheets (deffinitly on the right track, needs to put together a couple healthy seasons)

AJ Burnett (certainly has the stuff but does he have the mental game)

Josh Beckett (see Mark Prior)

Chris Carpenter (see Willis)

Jake Peavy (see Willis and pretty much everyone else)

 

.....certainly I wouldn't mind having any of these guys but potential does not equal an ace. Josh Beckett is not an ace....but has as much potential is not more than most of these guys. I love Tim Wakefield but he is the ultimate #4-#5 starter.

[example1]

the deffinition of ace is deffinitly tough....a lot of times people get confused with consistancy and potential. When I think of an ace I think of someone who is healthy, consistant, and can go the distance any game. Its expected of that pitcher to go 7 innings, save the bullpen, and gives his team the advantage to win. These are the players I consider an ace:

 

Curt Schilling

Randy Johnson

John Smoltz

Pedro Martinez

Roger Clemens

Roy Oswalt

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Jason Schmidt

Tim Hudson

Livan Hernandez

 

These are the guys who could be an ace with more consistancy and less injury problems:

(keep in mind, I don't think one excellent season makes you an ace like Willis and Carpenter)

 

Mark Buehrle (still young and needs to keep that era below 4.00)

Bartolo Colon (inconsistant)

Barry Zito (not the same guy he once was but shows flashes)

Rich Harden (couple more years he might be the best)

Dontrelle Willis (same as Harden)

Mark Prior (if he could just stay healthy)

Carlos Zambrano (guess you could already consider him an ace...one more season)

Ben Sheets (deffinitly on the right track, needs to put together a couple healthy seasons)

AJ Burnett (certainly has the stuff but does he have the mental game)

Josh Beckett (see Mark Prior)

Chris Carpenter (see Willis)

Jake Peavy (see Willis and pretty much everyone else)

 

.....certainly I wouldn't mind having any of these guys but potential does not equal an ace. Josh Beckett is not an ace....but has as much potential is not more than most of these guys. I love Tim Wakefield but he is the ultimate #4-#5 starter.

 

Very good, comprehensive post. I would say that Buehrle is an ace. The guy has thrown over 220 innings the last 5 years, during which time he is 84-51. His career ERA is 3.63, with a career 1.23 WHIP. He also has thrown more than 6 innings every start in something like 90% of his starts. The guy has been good the past few years and has definitely been the ace of the chisox staff.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Very good, comprehensive post. I would say that Buehrle is an ace. The guy has thrown over 220 innings the last 5 years, during which time he is 84-51. His career ERA is 3.63, with a career 1.23 WHIP. He also has thrown more than 6 innings every start in something like 90% of his starts. The guy has been good the past few years and has definitely been the ace of the chisox staff.

 

Ok I'll agree with that. The one reason I shy away from him is because he isn't a huge strikeout guy but I guess thats not fair. He does what he does to the best of his ability and you are right...clearly he has been there top pitcher ever since he showed up and he led the staff this season.

[Sizzlin22]

All i know down the pennant stretch the starting pitcher i wanted to give the ball was Wake

I can't agree with that because he's too random. You never know what your going to get with a straight knuckleballer, you could get the untouchable guy and you could get the BP guy you never know.

[riverside sluggers]

All the big deals that have gone down from last week to this week, I have seen the press conferences of players getting their new team jerseys and hats.

 

 

Why not yet Beckett, Lowell and Mota? What can I say, im getting impatient to see that

 

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I can't agree with that because he's too random. You never know what your going to get with a straight knuckleballer, you could get the untouchable guy and you could get the BP guy you never know.

 

What I felt, turned out to be right. Wakefield had a 1.99 ERA in 5 starts in September

[ManyOrtiz]

Im looking forward to it as well. Should be fun. COurse its gonna suck having to wait all winter before we get to see anything. Im excited for Beckett, but I have this sneaking feeling Lowell is gonna play really well next year. No real reason other than he has played well before and I want it to happen.

[schillingouttheks]

The way I look at Lowell basically is that he's an all-star 3rd basemen. He is. He had the worst season he's ever had last year, and now I look at it that he can only get better, because basically, you can't do any worse than he did last year. I think he'll have many field days with the Monster in LF, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he has to offer. I think everyone needs to get off his back a bit. Lowell had ONE bad year and tore it up the year before, and did well the year before that and so on. I'm excited for the players we brought in.

[MC Hammer]

The way I look at Lowell basically is that he's an all-star 3rd basemen. He is. He had the worst season he's ever had last year, and now I look at it that he can only get better, because basically, you can't do any worse than he did last year. I think he'll have many field days with the Monster in LF, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he has to offer. I think everyone needs to get off his back a bit. Lowell had ONE bad year and tore it up the year before, and did well the year before that and so on. I'm excited for the players we brought in.

Heres my big problem with everyone who went into a season long slump last year; maybe steroids had something to do with their success. Now, I'm not saying it did, and I'm certainly hoping it didn't, but there is a 50/50 chance that last years Lowell is the real Lowell.

[ORS]

My problem with that argument is that it assumes that a steroid user, once he stops using steroids, becomes significantly weaker after using steroids. I've spent a lot of time in the gym, and while I've never done steroids, I do know people who have and have worked out with them.

 

During a steroid cycle, they would gain size and strength very quickly, as one would expect. However, after the cycle was completed, if they continued to workout, I saw no significant decrease in their strength. They only people who lost noticable strength were the ones who stopped hitting the gym, which will happen with anyone.

 

Now, maybe that is a possibility with Lowell. I haven't looked at before and after pictures, so I don't now how to explain his power decline. But, consider this, if the bat hits the ball just 1/8" lower, a HR ball becomes a warning track ball. Reports have stated that Lowell suffered from some problems with his left eye (his lead eye) contact this season. Given my experiences, I think it is safer to assume that someone who isn't seeing the ball that well is missing by 1/8" or more than it is to assume that they were using steroids.

[Varitek33]

Well, how about that.

 

Beckett

Schilling

Clement

Papps

Wake

Arroyo

 

Now we offer Wells a little more $$$ to stay.

 

 

Thats a pretty good rotation.

[example1]

Thats a pretty good rotation.

Except that every time Arroyo's turn comes up I will be wishing Beckett were starting instead.

[Sizzlin22]

We're not going with a 6 man rotation, that would jdut be stupid. I fnaything Arroyo goes to the pen as a long reliever for when someone is hurt / getting killed.

[ORS]

I haven't found any internet links yet, so take this any way you want, but apparently XM radio has been playing a Gammons quote where he says that Beckett's MRI wasn't good and that the Sox aren't expecting to get more than 20 starts out of him.

 

I found mention of this over at SoSH and on the YES boards, with several members corroborating the XM broadcast.

[Cityofchampions33]

That might explain why we got Mota out of the whole deal. It's still good because he's still 25.

[jimmycarter05]

this year should be really interesting...Boston might be really good this year, or they could be really bad...i say this because on a positive note they could be really good by beckett being beckett, schilling coming back as schilling, and wake having another solid year....the bullpen could really come alive as Foulke goes back to his 2004 form and mota goes back to his dodger form and timlin and hansen are solid mid relievers...the offense could also come alive by not trading manny and having edgar bounce back(defensively too) and resigning damon as our CF and trot having a great FA year...thats a monster team, but.......................

 

on the other hand, Boston could be really bad by beckett getting hurt for the whole year...schilling never being schilling again because of that ankle...lowell having back to back crappy seasons, edgar being the 2005 edgar, making about 5 errors and game and not hitting squat...foulke being the 2005 foulke and mota having another rough season....our offense would be in shambles with manny gone because ortiz has a OBP of .1000 because everybody walks him because they're are no other threats in the lineup...i mean this Boston team could be really bad or REALLY good

[ksushi]

I don't know about that, Gammons is human and even if he did say that, I don't see Mota being enough to garner a deal where we give up our best prospects essentially for another wade miller. I don't see it. I think they took advantage the situation that Marlins were in and they froze them out and told them, well you know after reviewing this is iffy blah blah.

 

He got a clean bill of health from one of the best in the business. For me, thats happy news.

[example1]

Here is a fairly lengthy interview with Josh Beckett:

http://cbs4boston.com/local/local_story_339222728.html

[MC Hammer]

I don't know about that, Gammons is human and even if he did say that, I don't see Mota being enough to garner a deal where we give up our best prospects essentially for another wade miller. I don't see it. I think they took advantage the situation that Marlins were in and they froze them out and told them, well you know after reviewing this is iffy blah blah.

 

He got a clean bill of health from one of the best in the business. For me, thats happy news.

Exactly, and if the Sox looked at the MRI and saw anything they didn't like they would have voided the deal. What sense does it make to trade for a hurt pitcher?

[RoyNHSox]

Bumping this to talk some more about Beckett.

 

Last night we saw the ugly meltdown of Beckett. The Yankees were all over his fastball like flies on s***. His curveball seemed like it was missing big time so he stuck to just the fastball, with an occasional changeup that had little differential.

 

But I’ve also read some accounts that he’s tipping his pitches. Anyone think there’s any truth in that?

[RedSoxRooter]

Yes! An old thread started by ME with 268 replies! I rule planets!

 

I think Beckett's mechanic's are off. He gets the curve over and he figures it out. I'm not worried. I still would take what we gave up for what we took on in this trade.