Redsox Off Season Vs. Yankees Off Season

[sarasoxfan]

I think the yankees have improved, but they are still vulnerable. Their bullpen aint much, and their starter rotation is an injury away from being what it was last year. Martinez is old and is a slight improvement over olerud, et al.

 

let's discuss

 

 

from the nypost:

 

January 1, 2005 -- WHETHER it's Big Unit or small details, the Yankees have improved their roster going into 2005. They landed their No. 1 target in Randy Johnson and made at least minor upgrades in several other areas.

And since these are the Yankees, they might not be through. Carlos Beltran is still available, and if the Yanks sign him some time early in the new year they are going to be considered even more grotesque for taking their payroll into the $230 million range and something close to unbeatable.

 

Beltran, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Tony Womack would give the Yanks four players who finished in the top 18 in steals last season, and Beltran just might be the most cagey thief ever.

 

Beltran, A-Rod and Gary Sheffield would give the Yankees three of the majors' top 15 homer hitters last year. Even if Jason Giambi did not come back, the Yanks would be able to offer a lineup in which eight players hit at least 21 homers last year.

 

Nine switch-hitters hit at least 21 homers last year and three are named Carlos Beltran, Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada. Plus Ruben Sierra (17 homers) still may come back for the bench. Add three righties (Jeter, A-Rod, Sheffield) and three lefties (Tino Martinez/Giambi, Hideki Matsui and Womack) and you have the kind of balance that further threatens the majors' balance of power.

 

Yet even without Beltran, the Yankees, to date, have elevated their talent level.

 

In the field, Martinez and Womack are at least a slight improvement on John Olerud/Tony Clark and Miguel Cairo.

 

Mike Stanton has diminished from the reliever he was in his first Yankee stint (1997-2002), but is still a far better option than Felix Heredia, C.J. Nitkowski or Gabe White. Felix Rodriguez is a workhorse like Paul Quantrill, but with strikeout ability. Rodriguez is clearly more reliable than neophytes such as Bret Prinz and Scott Proctor, who tried to do the job last year.

 

Can the Yanks expect a full return to effectiveness by Steve Karsay or that Tanyon Sturtze, who pitched with such confidence and quality late last season, really has turned a career corner? A positive result with either will only further enhance a more trustworthy bullpen.

 

Johnson obviously comes with great risk at age 41 with a suspect knee and a boorish makeup. But the Yanks are the now team of all-time.

 

In 2004, Johnson was one of the majors' five best starters. The Yankees had no one in the top 20. The Yanks are a tough transition for anyone; even Roger Clemens struggled his first year. But Johnson's aura should make it easier for others in the rotation, particularly newcomers Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright. Are Johnson, Pavano and Wright better than Javier Vazquez, Jon Lieber and Orlando Hernandez?

 

Yes, mainly because of Johnson and the uncertain health of Hernandez. Pavano and Wright carry terrific stuff over from the NL, but we were saying that last year about Vazquez and Kevin Brown. The Yanks invested $61 million in Pavano and Wright, and will be fortunate if one handles the switch to Pinstripes with excellence.

 

Which means the Yanks will probably — amazingly — be back in the rotation market come July. Imagine how grotesque and unbeatable the Yankees will feel when they trade Eric Duncan, Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang for Ben Sheets.

[Noah]

The Yankee rotation is overrated, even with Randy.

[roary]

Whoa, what happened to the site? I havent visited in a long time.

[element1151]

Changed from IPB to vBulletin.

[Gertie]

To quote an infinitely s***** movie: Whoa... upgrades.

 

Yep, we just switched software. New look, new everything.

[yeszir]

Yes, we did switch, but what you see right now is not the final version at all. There will be mega changes, and the current avatar problem will eventually be fixed.

[2090]

The Yankee rotation is overrated, even with Randy.

sure, just like Carl Pavano you hypocrites

[Yanksin2010]

Yanks and sox are both having good offseasons. Main goal for the sox, sign varitek-done.

Main goal for the yanks, trade for Rj- done.

[yeszir]

Yanks and sox are both having good offseasons. Main goal for the sox, sign varitek-done.

Main goal for the yanks, trade for Rj- done.

I disagree. The main goal for the sox this offseason was to get pitching, and we did it. Varitek was important, sure, but we could have survived without him. Next year sure would have looked bleak had we not signed miller, wells, and clement.

[elsrbueno]

I think the Yankees have a slight edge so far. Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, Stanton, Rodriguez... the pitching staff is much improved.

 

The 04 Yankees had 2 weaknesses: Rotation and bullpen. if 2 of the above starters pan out, they'll be improved. And Rodriguez/Stanton is better than Proctor/Heredia.

 

The Sox also improved, but the bullpen is still a concern for me, and losing Pedro was tough. The Sox are deeper, but not as good at the top.

 

There's still time for this to swing a bit... but as of 1/3/2005... I'm giving a SLIGHT edge to the Yankees.

[Chitalian Stallion]

Though the yanks have gotten RJ and will probably get Beltran I'm still not afraid of them. They will (if they land Beltran) have a good balanced line-up (3 righties, lefties, and 3 switch) and at least 8 of them can hit 20+ HR's next year (or so I hear).

The Sox have somewhat of the same balance with Tek, Bellhorn, and Bill Mueller switch hitting, Minky (if we keep him), Nixon, Damon, and Papi hittin lefty, Then Renteria, Manny, and Millar (if we keep him) batting righty. We will also have 7 players returning with at least 11+ in HR's not including Renteria.

As for pitching I am happy with our pick ups in Clement and Miller, both have talent. Clement, according to the new Bill James book, had 5 "Tough Losses" mostly because of the low run support and if you count those his record is 14- 8 not including the no decisions that when he left, left the cubs leading.

Miller can be excellent (2001, 2002) if he stays healthy and has a very good slider when his wind up is smooth.

I also like the Dave Roberts trade. Now we have an excellent bench with starting material in Payton.

[sully777]

The Yankee's offseason depends on acquiring Beltran. If they get him, then I shall concede that the Yankee's had a better offseason. Other than that this is how I look at it. The Johnson trade tops any of our individual acquisitions. However I think signing Renteria and re-signing Varitek puts us close to that degree of off season success. Pavano-Wright vs. Clement-Wells-Miller is in our favor. Clement is not a huge downgrade from Pavano, and Miller healthy is the best pitcher out of them all. Also Jaret Wright is not a great pitcher in my mind, so by adding Wells to our staff with the afore mentioned, 2-5 we had the better offseason. In terms of offense, we had a much better off season by far, since the Yankees one big pickup was Tino, and this was just a ridiculous attempt at bringing back the old Yankee dynasty. Honestly, he isn't that good a first baseman. So there we have it, as of now, I think the Red Sox addressed more concerns and also increased talent, while the Yankees increased talent but did not necissarily address all of their concerns. They still have holes at second, center, bullpen, and in my opinion, first. The sox right now have a pretty solid infield, pen, and starting rotation.

[elsrbueno]

The Yankee's offseason depends on acquiring Beltran. If they get him, then I shall concede that the Yankee's had a better offseason. Other than that this is how I look at it. The Johnson trade tops any of our individual acquisitions. However I think signing Renteria and re-signing Varitek puts us close to that degree of off season success. Pavano-Wright vs. Clement-Wells-Miller is in our favor. Clement is not a huge downgrade from Pavano, and Miller healthy is the best pitcher out of them all. Also Jaret Wright is not a great pitcher in my mind, so by adding Wells to our staff with the afore mentioned, 2-5 we had the better offseason. In terms of offense, we had a much better off season by far, since the Yankees one big pickup was Tino, and this was just a ridiculous attempt at bringing back the old Yankee dynasty. Honestly, he isn't that good a first baseman. So there we have it, as of now, I think the Red Sox addressed more concerns and also increased talent, while the Yankees increased talent but did not necissarily address all of their concerns. They still have holes at second, center, bullpen, and in my opinion, first. The sox right now have a pretty solid infield, pen, and starting rotation.

 

Second: Tony Womack. Not a dominant player, but a defensive upgrade over Cairo. He doesn't scare me offensively (unless he gets on base).

Center: Bernie Williams (hit .262 with 22 HR last year. Yes, he's declining, but if he's their weakness... that's not bad at all).

Bullpen: Stanton/Rodriguez represent upgrades to their 2004 guys, and with those + Randy it's safe to say Quantrill/Gordon (who were very good early) won't be worked as hard.

 

First base could be a problem for them, but as I said, Tino will probably hit .260 with 20ish homers. Bad production for a first baseman, but the Yankees WILL have a darn good lineup regardless of who plays first.

[Chitalian Stallion]

Our bullpen also has the advantage over theirs, especially if mantei comes through

[YANKEESRULE]

What are you smoking? Sox bullpen is better than New Yorks.Ha Ha Ha that's kinda funny. Our bullpen was better then yours last year and we upgraded so yea I can see that the Sox bullpen is better.

[sully777]

I agree that the Yankee's offense isnt in trouble with Womack or Tino. I am merely saying they are weaknesses in the sense that those will be two spots pitchers will hope to use as outs. Tino isn't a bad player, and neither is Womack, but in terms of value as offseason acquisitions, there are a bunch of free agents out there who could have the same kind of production value. Maybe not in Homers, I'll give Tino that, but most definitely in average and OBP. All I'm saying, is that offseason vs. offseason, the Red Sox in my mind, have a slight advantage, based on the quantity and quality of players, where the Yankees have a higher quality pickup (Johnson) but in terms of the greater pitcure, i believe the Red Sox have the better mean average.

[elsrbueno]

I agree that the Yankee's offense isnt in trouble with Womack or Tino. I am merely saying they are weaknesses in the sense that those will be two spots pitchers will hope to use as outs. Tino isn't a bad player, and neither is Womack, but in terms of value as offseason acquisitions, there are a bunch of free agents out there who could have the same kind of production value. Maybe not in Homers, I'll give Tino that, but most definitely in average and OBP. All I'm saying, is that offseason vs. offseason, the Red Sox in my mind, have a slight advantage, based on the quantity and quality of players, where the Yankees have a higher quality pickup (Johnson) but in terms of the greater pitcure, i believe the Red Sox have the better mean average.

 

I can see what you're saying, but think about it this way:

 

The Yankees had 2 weaknesses last October: The Rotation, and the Bullpen. They've improved BOTH of those areas:

 

Johnson > Vazquez

Pavano > Lieber

Wright = Loaiza

 

Rodriguez > Proctor

Stanton > Heredia

 

The Red Sox won the World Series, so you can't say they were weak, but I'd say the bullpen was the biggest weakness. They lost Myers, Williamson, Mendoza, and Adams.... Williamson when healthy was NASTY, but he unfortunately didn't contribute a whole lot to the team last year, and certainly not in October.

 

Myers was replaced with Halama. Neither one is really dominant, so I'm gunna call this equal.

 

Williamson was replaced with Mantei. Equal again. Both are dominant relievers when healthy, but Mantei is certainly no guarantee.

 

So, in my book, the Yankees have improved this offseason, and the Red Sox have basically stayed the same. I like the rotation because it's deeper, but ONE of the 3 newcomers (Clement, Wells, Miller) needs to step up and take that #2 spot before I consider the rotation BETTER than 2004.

 

I give NY the offseason edge for that reason.

[sarasoxfan]

once again-- a yankee fan has appeared and made an absoulte fool of himself..

 

Rarely, do yankee fans have anything interesting or accurate to contribute...they are arrogant, argumentative and almost always wrong.

 

I guess the owenership and the fans have quite a bit in common--they are smug arrogant bully's- or in a word *******s.

 

With that said there is no question at all that the sox bullpen was vastly superior to the yankees bullpen...as was our starting rotation.

 

I guess it depends on the criteria you use to define "better", but in the long run the better bullpen was the one that won the world series, as oppposed to the one that contributed to the biggest choke in the history of baseball.

[elsrbueno]

once again-- a yankee fan has appeared and made an absoulte fool of himself..

 

Rarely, do yankee fans have anything interesting or accurate to contribute...they are arrogant, argumentative and almost always wrong.

 

I guess the owenership and the fans have quite a bit in common--they are smug arrogant bully's- or in a word *******s.

 

With that said there is no question at all that the sox bullpen was vastly superior to the yankees bullpen...as was our starting rotation.

 

I guess it depends on the criteria you use to define "better", but in the long run the better bullpen was the one that won the world series, as oppposed to the one that contributed to the biggest choke in the history of baseball.

 

It does depend on what you mean by "better." During the regular season, Tom Gordon, Paul Quantrill, and Mariano Rivera formed a pretty dominating trio of relievers. Because of the weak rotation, and Torre's mistrust of anyone BUT these three, they were horribly overworked. Tom Gordon did not pitch well against the Red Sox at all, and Rivera (although got credit for blowing 2 saves, really only blew one in my opinion) was left as the lone reliable reliever.

 

The Red Sox bullpen did the job in October, but wasn't exactly feared by anyone. Keith Foulke was the postseason hero pitching in 11 games and having a 0.64 ERA.

 

I wouldn't speak so fast saying Boston's bullpen is better though. Would Gordon have been so ineffective in the ALCS had he shouldered a lighter workload? The same can be asked about Quantrill and Rivera, too.

 

Do ANY Sox relievers (other than Foulke) strike fear into batters hearts? Not really.

[Chitalian Stallion]

What are you smoking? Sox bullpen is better than New Yorks.Ha Ha Ha that's kinda funny. Our bullpen was better then yours last year and we upgraded so yea I can see that the Sox bullpen is better.

The Yanks bullpen was better then the Sox bullpen? What are YOU smoking? Maybe they were in June july but the Sox were better from then on. Especially in the playoffs when Mariano blew at least 2 saves and we held you scoreless in games 4 and 5.

[1949 1978 1986 2003]

they are arrogant, argumentative and almost always wrong.

 

 

 

Holy crap!!!!! :wtf:

 

Red Sox fans are exactly what you stated, except you left out: immature, bias, cry babies and whiners!

 

 

RED SOX FANS ARE ALL OF THE ABOVE!

 

Exception to some true sox fans that know what they are talking about.

[stevece80]

2004

[yeszir]

Exception to some true sox fans that know what they are talking about.

You've added this to all of your posts. Most likely to delay the inevitable ban that's coming your way (again).

[schillingouttheks]

Loving this new guys name . Doesn't make a difference anymore. Anyway, I think saying that Yankee fans are stupid, arrogant, etc is false. I know lots of Yankee fans that know what they are talking about and they know a lot of correct s***.

 

And are you telling me that Yankee fans aren't biased!?!? BULL f***ING s***. Suddenly, even though the Sox won the World Series, no fans tip their caps and say good job and even admit we have a good team, meanwhile all the time we accept the fact that the Yankees beat us (well most of us, not all) and we all know that the Yankees are, arguably, the greatest franchise in all of sports. We don't hide anything. Also, true Sox fans won't whine or bitch when something goes wrong. They accept what happens and decide what needs to go correctly in the future.

 

Just needed to defend and attack both sides. Nothing against anyone.

[Zenny]

That new guy was retarded. He didn't even have half of the years in his name right. Moron.

 

By the way, I've got a year for him: 2004. That's all that matters, motherf***er.

[RedSoxRooter]

So, in my book, the Yankees have improved this offseason, and the Red Sox have basically stayed the same.

Exactly. This is why the Sox have had a better offseason so far. The Yankees only needed to upgrade, much like we upgraded last year with Schilling and Foulke. The Red Sox HAD to go out and replace their #2 and #3 starters, replace their SS and try to sign their 3rd baseman and catcher. We lost Pedro, Cabrera, Williamson, Lowe, Roberts, Reese, Millar or Minky and Kapler - yet we are almost as good, if not deeper than last year. AND, we still have some holes to fill.

 

The Yankees surely upgraded from last year, but Theo basically rebuilt 1/3 of the team with players that can come close to/match/or even exceed last years FAs. Oh, and our payroll will be more flexable since we are spending I think 10 million less than last year and, AND, we didn't lose a single prospect in doing so.

 

Come the trade deadline, the Sox will be sitting pretty and the Yankees - should they need someone - will not be as flexible. This is why the Sox have had the better offseason if you ask me.

 

Just an interesting Sox tid bit here:

 

Last year's opening day rotation plus the number 6 starter win totals for 2004:

(yes, I know wins are overrated, but here they are anyway..)

 

75 wins.

 

This year's opening day rotation plus the number 6 starter - if they collectively total the same number of wins they had last year.

 

71 wins.

 

I think Miller and Clement, if healthy, can win more than the 16 total games they won last year, don't you? They could probably both win 16.

 

[yeszir]

Just an interesting Sox tid bit here:

 

Last year's opening day rotation plus the number 6 starter win totals for 2004:

(yes, I know wins are overrated, but here they are anyway..)

 

75 wins.

 

This year's opening day rotation plus the number 6 starter - if they collectively total the same number of wins they had last year.

 

71 wins.

 

I think Miller and Clement, if healthy, can win more than the 16 total games they won last year, don't you? They could probably both win 16.

 

 

Are you counting Kim as the "number 6 starter"? If so, that isnt very looking to me I dont think. It shows how our rotation isnt severely degraded (or degraded much at all), but its not great news, is it? We have six legit starters this time around, and their wins dont match our 5 and a third starters from last year. Sure, some played for bad teams (Wells), but still. I'm not freaking out or anything, I'm just wondering.

[elsrbueno]

Are you counting Kim as the "number 6 starter"? If so, that isnt very looking to me I dont think. It shows how our rotation isnt severely degraded (or degraded much at all), but its not great news, is it? We have six legit starters this time around, and their wins dont match our 5 and a third starters from last year. Sure, some played for bad teams (Wells), but still. I'm not freaking out or anything, I'm just wondering.

 

Keep in mind to take those numbers with a grain of salt. Matt Clement had only 9 wins, but horrible run support. The Red Sox are a better team in the field, and at the plate than the Cubs, so it's not totally unreasonable to predict 15ish wins from him in 2005.

 

Miller won 7 games last year in 15 starts. Give him 25-30 starts, he should be able to win 13-15 games if he's healthy.

 

Wells was 12-8 last year, I'm assuming he'll do the same...

 

If Clement OR Miller win 15 games, we're back to where we were last year.

[yeszir]

If Clement OR Miller win 15 games, we're back to where we were last year.

Not to be a nay-sayer, but if Clement OR Miller win 15 games, we're back to where we were last year, except this time around we have 6 legit starting pitchers instead of 5. Some wins will be lost in the shuffle somewhere, right?

[YanksHater213]

Right.