5GoldGlovesOF,75

"Established" to me is somebody already taking a regular turn in a starting rotation, but not as an opener (so that would rule out Boston's current dirty dozen... how could the bar be lower). Neither Pivetta or Seabold are there yet. Matthew Boyd is, but he's been brutal for the past year. He had a good first half of 2019 and was a strikeout machine, but has fallen off a rocky ledge (banned c-word) since -- leading the AL in losses, hits and home runs allowed. I would still take a chance on Boyd, but not for Beni. He was a 4.5 WAR guy, a 20-20 HR-SB man, 90 RBIs... and is still young enough to do it again. I'd swap Chavis for Boyd; I don't know if the Tigers would, but I think they already missed optimizing his value when they demanded the moon at the '19 deadline.

In addition to... we can't count on either of those guys yet. The Sox need several established MLB starting pitchers asap. Pivetta and Seabold are hopefuls, as in we hope one of them can step into the rotation in the next year or two. But I'm not against the Moreland trade, and would much rather see Bloom swing another couple where we get more potential young starters rather than potential young relievers.

Well, if we give Bloom a pass for all the "pitchers" he added this year -- just this once -- then we should consider his history in Tampa, constantly trading for and trading away relievers. There's no big free agent signings of the recent Chapman or Kimbrel contracts.

I have to agree with Jax that it would be dire to spend on relievers. I'd rather see three or four new established starting pitchers added, preferably guys in their 20s. They can even all be back-of-the-rotation types, as long as they're durable and can eat innings (hopefully quality starts by pitching into the 6th freaking frame). Such a plan will instantly improve the entire existing bullpen by providing reasonable rest and more defined roles. Bloom will have the opportunity to make it happen with a few mid-budget signings and change-of-scenery trades. Unless, of course, his plan is to keep stockpiling relief arms for revolving opener fun.

Red Sox Nation can hardly wait for the next new crop of openers and bulk guys that Bloom finds.

I lived it, even talked to Lee about it a couple times in Boston back then. When I said winning, I meant when he was allowed to help the Sox win the pennant -- which he was no longer permitted to do after publicly mocking Zim. The old guys in the press were also tired of his act (except Gammons, who was in his prime and not yet old).

This may be a bigger factor than fans here consider -- and I'm not referring to talent or diminishing abilities that come with age. In dumping Price, Boston management didn't just shed payroll, but also got rid of a public relations headache. Bauer's extroverted personality also might come with antics that would be unacceptable on a rebuilding team trying to win back its fan base. Remember, Bill "Spaceman" Lee was only tolerated in the much-more liberal Beantown of the 1970s as long as he and the team were winning...

I don't see it that way, but I'm not blaming 98% on Bloom, either. If Dombro was still around, and ownership chose to pay the tax and stay competitive this year, there's no reason the Sox couldn't have acquired Ryu, Roark, Anderson, Walker, Ray and Stripling -- the six new starting pitchers Toronto added this season. Instead, Boston the Franchise abstained... but it was Chaim Bloom -- not Dombrowski -- who picked up guys like Godley, Mazza, Brice, Osich, Springs, Valdez, Stock, Kickham, Triggs, Covey, Leyer and the mortal Matt Hall. It's hard to imagine Dombro combing the bargain bins in the first place... which is probably why he was fired and Bloom hired. Maybe 2020 will be best remembered for Bloom getting Martin Perez, the ace who leads the club with three wins. Perez is certainly better than Andrew Cashner, Dombro's last starting pitcher added to the Sox a year ago. But most of Dave's starting mound recruits in Boston were worthy of the price at the time: Eovaldi, Pomeranz, Sale, Price (as most fans would agree). He was never in the position where he "wasn't allowed" to improve the Sox, as many feel Bloom has been in since his arrival. But now that the reset is reset, the pleasure -- and pressure -- will be all Bloom's...

It has gotten so ridiculously horrid -- half the games this month alone allowing 8 or more runs -- that I have to wonder how much longer true Red Sox diehards will tolerate this new (cruel and unusual) franchise philosophy of "taking the pain"... As much as ownership appears to be behind Bloom and his strategies, I would be shocked if some major splashes are not made in the offseason. And I don't consider the expectations of the Nation as elitist or spoiled, either; not when the Red Sox charge elite prices for tickets, parking, concessions and swag.

I agree, if by unsung you mean "dirtdogs" -- the solid players who seem to get more out of their abilities than expected (according to pro and amateur pundits), and who always at least look like they care as much as the fans do. When you're making millions of dollars to play a game at a level that millions of fans can only wish they could, then you'd better hustle. Of all the team sports, baseball is unique: the sum deeds of isolated individuals. Mookie didn't pitch, but he was the best player on the best team in the AL East for three straight years (based on WAR)... and all five full seasons of his career in Boston. It doesn't take Bloom to tell us -- like he did after the trade -- that the Red Sox wouldn't have been as good without him.

Seriously, I'd be happy with a good field, weak bat type -- someone a rebuilding pitching staff can count on to consistently nail down sure outs, especially DPs. For all the utility types listed, it's surprising there's not one elite glove in the group. Where's that Korean second baseman that someone here showed videos of last winter?

They better not be, not for a second baseman, unless he's Altuve. There are no second sacker available worth swapping a top prospect for -- and even if, such a deal should only be consummated to help boost a contender, like the Ian Kinsler trade. Boston should just sign a place-holder, someone like Yolmer Sanchez, a Gold Glover with speed.

Not quite this team. Here's a fun hy-pathetical game: if Dombro was ordered to trade Betts to get rid of Price, who would he have accepted from LA in return? I'd say -- in the very best interests of attempting to field a major league club in 2020 -- Dave would've started with Kenta Maeda (who the Dodgers were obviously ok with moving) instead of Downs and/or Wong. But that would also mean he'd take Joc Pederson or AJ Pollock instead of insisting on Verdugo.

Let's just hope Devers is pretty good but not too great, or we might not be able to sign him.

From what I can see -- and remember seeing -- there are huge differences between Betts and Devers that go beyond Mookie's superior stats, elite defense and baserunning. Both have great hand-eye skills but Betts -- who has already starred in over twice as many games -- has always had a better approach to hitting, with a more contained line drive swing. Devers can be a borderline hack, trying to kill way too many pitches above and below the strike zone. Maybe Rafie matures into a lefthanded Miggie Cabrera, but right now there is already some skepticism about inconsistent focus and conditioning. For those who think Devers may turn out to be a better longterm investment, it's worth noting that Mookie Betts has never given anyone in baseball one single pause that he won't sustain his Hall of Fame career for the next decade.

No disagreement there, but reality is perception.

Matt Hall is Bloom's bulk guy. He comes in after the opener to give up the bulk of the opponents' runs.

Rays will throw at Daubach every time up -- they're still pissed about the brawl from 20 years ago.

You and I have had our disagreements here, but now you're just being disrespectful. He was bending over to pick up a grounder!

In fairness to history, the latter is rare. Just looking at this century alone, there are maybe three out of the last 20 world champs that didn't have either an MVP, Cy Young or Hall of Famer contributing: '15 KC, '05 ChiSox, '02 Angels. I actually agree with posters who prefer core players that spend entire primes with the home team. Identifying and rooting for regulars is part of what makes it fun being a fan. I guess I'm leery of a new GM using the old Tampa strategy, rotating rosters every two years and always trading guys at peak value before they're due top dollar.

Scherzer, deGrom, Bieber and Sixto Sanchez.

All true. Starters earn way more WAR than relievers because they face and retire way more batters. I'm just skeptical about Sale's durability as he ages, so wonder if he can best remain elite in one-inning stints vs. 5 or 6 frames per outing. It's doubtful he changes his delivery, and improbable he changes his body... so even a new elbow can become imperiled.

According to bbref, Eovaldi's is four years (two more now) but Sale's contract has a vesting option for a 6th year (four more now). Then, of course, when discussing investments, there are the dollar amounts... I'm one of those irresponsible fans who wonder if Sale's future may be best as a closer. I know, I hear everyone who says he's making too much money. But what exactly is the value of a potential automatic lockdown closer for a team in sustained contention? We know the job isn't for everyone... or even many ones... and relief innings put less mileage on an arm than quality starts. Here's an extreme comparison: who would you rather have on a team making a title run: Dennis Eckersly the All-Star starter or Eck the Hall of Fame closer? Peak Sale or peak Eck?

They should, but good rotations with workhorses don't always. The '18 Sox were prepared with basically eight starters -- the original rotation, four who made 23 or more starts, plus Pomeranz (who was replaced late by Eovaldi) -- along with the swingmen that Cora loved: Johnson and Velasquez, who made 19 starts between them, and Steven Wright (four starts). Contrast that staff with the one this year's Sox went into Spring Training with... knowing they were down three starters -- Porcello, Price, and let's be honest, Sale (how could they not know). They replaced that trio with Martin Perez. For all those who trust Bloom, I hope we can trust he'll never do that again.

The Sox would pay for him not to return to Boston -- wait, aren't they already doing that?