Hugh2

I would have been fine with declining Clays option and signing another pitcher last year. Of course, I wanted one of Lester/Schezer the year before which would have made that unnecessary.

Fair enough, and if that is the case then I suppose I'm guilty. I was happy with the Price signing but I thought someone would step up to fill out the rotation. I didn't forsee the injury and step back Erod would take either. However with that logic I do want to take credit for stating the Sox needed a RHH infielder who can hit lefties. Aaron Hill was a great pick up that fills a need on this team, but to be my own critic.....pitching is and has been a much bigger need.

You need balance, you really do and I think DD is fairly good at maintaining that balance. You're right though, some people want to just blindly unload the future to win now. At times, I think I've been too far on the other end of that spectrum, and I admit that. Although there is one thing that scares me. As good as a track record that DD has, that has to be an indictment on his scouting department as well. There are a lot of scouts and personnel that do the leg work that ultimately go into the decision making. The Sox really liked Espinoza, but if he does turn into a stud I hope he stays in the N.L. West.

Teams also have budgets, we were over the cap and the market was thin. It's a lot easier to go out and get another starter if you have more space, which is something the team might have done if they didn't make such blunders recently as Panda, and Castillo. We all got opinions though and it's easy to take credit when we are right and vanish when we are wrong. But things easily could have gone the other way, making the F.O. looking like geniuses. Yes I suppose it was a mistake however, taking the side of "you can never have enough pitching" has never exactly failed anyone.

Yes, and DD has a great track record at making trades too. Now if he can only go out and trade Mookie Betts for Matt Kemp!!!

I agree, some guys do great and are known to jump on the first pitch. A lot of other great hitters spend their entire career taking the first pitch. These guys have a plan, and they stick to it, as they should.

Taking a first pitch strike isn't completely un useful if you know the strike is coming. There is something to be said of getting a look at a pitchers delivery, their angle, and timing. Some of the best hitters almost always take a first pitch, I'm not going to nit-pick someones approach because we get shut down from time to time. You will never see an offense, even a legendary one that isn't going to get beat from time to time. Last night was just not our night....it's as simple as that.

There is an element of chance to all this as well. You can do everything right and some guys just won't develop, and sometimes you get more than you should. To an extent we got lucky that all of Bogaerts, Betts, and JBJ panned out. With honorable mentions to Vasquez, Shaw, and Barnes, I also wouldn't close the book yet on Swihart and Owens. But one thing to consider when evaluating the narrative that we haven't been able to develop pitching in a while is we have not had a blue chip pitching prospect in our system that was the equivalent to a position player prospect like Bogaerts and Betts. Also, high end, cost controlled pitching is the rarest commodity in baseball. Throw in a hint of luck/chance and the Sox aren't exactly in an unfamiliar position. A lot of teams have had these issues as well. I think prospects like Espinoza and Groome are different than the pitching prospects they've had in the past, which ultimately still doesn't guarantee success but conversely the past shouldn't be an excuse to just trade all these guys away. I think Kopech is kind of in-between, I don't think he's the same guy as Espinoza and Groome but he might be a step up from the prospects we've had in the past from Barnes to Owens.

It's also being reported that when the Sox rejected an Espinoza for Hill trade the A's countered with a deal that didn't involve Espinoza.

That is kind of the same complain on against Ben Charrington when the 2014 team failed. It was effectively the same championship team plagued with under performance. Of course, Ben C. doesn't have the lengthy track record of success that DD has.....but he does have a ring.

The problem is you can't make hindsight decisions, you don't know exactly what prospect is going to boom or bust. Some guys might have more red flags than others like zero power (cecchini) or way too many strike outs (Middlebrooks). Sometimes things like K/BB can be more predictive than other stats in the minors but some guys will always come exceed expectations (Travis Shaw) and many will become exactly who everyone thought he would (Bogaerts). I do agree that Owens was never untouchable, and I never understood the talk of him being a front line starter. I think people were just get excited from his stats, and scouting minor league stats is a poor way to evaluate talent (especially for pitchers). Espinoza, in terms of pure talent, stuff, mechanics, delivery etc etc was probably the best bet we had at having a front line starter in a long time. Now that in no way means he can't be a complete bust. I think a better way of looking at it would be to envision prospects as high probability lottery picks (as in higher than 1 in a million) where Espinoza has a million dollar pay out and someone like Owens has a 100K payout.

You mean, hope they got it right with Pomeranz?

True, we don't really know for sure. But generally speaking in any type of negotiation you don't start with your best price. Oakland isn't going to ask us for the minimum they'd be willing to take just like we aren't going to start with our best offer. Although I do ponder if DD came to the Padres with a larger offer than he normally would to avoid going to the deadline where the market could turn one way or another. They may have got Pomeranz for a bit less then, but after today with Hill going down....the price could have been higher actually. Kind of like how Groome was asking for 4 million plus, Sox apparently at some point offered 3.5 (above slot) and settled for 3.65 million. Let me put it this way, I'm pretty sure that the Sox and the A's as well as most MLB teams are better at negotiating than this guy.

Not traded, he got injured.

I heard that too, but I think that was Oaklands asking price, I'm sure they would have settled for less. Hill is much older than Pomeranz, with less control, and more injury risk.

I was kidnapped this weekend and missed the game, although I was able to follow the score. One thing I was curious about E-Rod was his pitch mix.

Point taken, what I meant was he's a stud in prospectedum.....which I guess should be analogous with could be.

You want a summary? Sox gave up a special talent They got great present value. They are showing they are going for it this year and helping their team for the following 2. DD has a good track record and has been working to plug every hole on this team this year. He got a bullpen arm, a RHH infield bat, and a good starting pitcher. Espinoza is a stud. Pomeranz might see even better days ahead.

I think that was more of his projected ceiling in terms of a MOTRS, the highest ceiling I've seen slapped on him from a credible source was #2 if everything broke right but there was a lot of talk of him being a #3#4 guy. If he ever harnesses his control I don't think that's completely out of the question but I think it's more realistic that he improves his command and control enough to crack a rotation but be more of a #4 guy. That may not be the most special projection in the world but if he could end up being that guy this season or next season at some point that would be huge on this team. I think you're right though, I see him as a useful trade chip at this point as well. Some guys need time to struggle and adjust at the MLB level, and a team in contention just can not afford to do that. We had the capacity to do that with JBJ and Bogaerts but not now, however I think that is an important note because even though his value has obviously dropped I don't think it's dropped as much as some people might think.

I'd love to see one or both of Erod/Owens step it up this year and be able to go into 2017 with a rotation of Price Pomeranz Porcello Wright Erod/Owens We have the triple B's in the lineup, and now we might have the triple P's in the rotation.

I don't have any quarrels with him. He was following the advise of his agent, which pretty much ever baseball player does. This could be the only golden egg he gets in his life, and 150K is 150K.

One thing I found encouraging about Owens start was he reportedly had much better control of his fastball. If he can do that with consistency then he can be a real option for us in the rotation sooner than later. I never thought Owens was going to be a TOTRS, and many scouts didn't either but I think he can be a really good solid #3 guy if he can make some real changes to his command.

So after a few days to ponder, read some scouting reports, watch some video, contemplate, get some rest, and get a few home cooked Colombian meals I think I've come around on this trade. I never really hated Pomeranz, and I actually advocated trading for him as opposed to Teheran weeks earlier in the trade thread. I only had a problem with the value the Sox gave up. Sometimes I don't necessarily disagree with a stance, but I have a problem with the argument. As someone who is prospect lover (or nut huger if you want to be a dick about it), and believes in building from within I guess I feel like people found it easy to discount the value we gave up and some of the red (perhaps more yellow at this point) flags around Pomeranz. I get it, as the old saying goes "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush" and this is the price of admission for a team that has a real chance to compete in the post season this year. With that said, I had a real problem with people thinking we sold high on Espinozas status based on his A league stats; he's the youngest player in the league and tiring mechanics likely is playing a large function of his performance. The sky is still the limit with this kid. Also, I found it very misleading and inappropriate to compare Owens to Espinoza because the greater scouting community that hypes up Espinoza as a potential true TOTRS and ace never had that level of praise for Henry Owens. The real risk with Espinoza, is his youth and his size, which is someone mitigated by his increase in size and his smooth mechanics and delivery that allows him to throw in the high 90's with ease and little wear and tear. However on the other side of the equation you have a guy like Pomeranz who by many accounts has made real adjustments making his new found status as a real TOTRS very real. I think you also can't discount DD's history of finding guys like Pomeranz and what we think he can be here. The only real guy that DD ever traded away that turned into a complete stud was Randy Johnson, but if you look at what he got back for him it wasn't exactly a bad trade. Again, this is the price of admission and I don't think we should discount the fact that the Sox F.O. has shown the team that they are invested in them, and are going for it. Trading away Espinoza might come back to bite us in the ass one day, but if Pomeranz gives us a real chance to win this year and helps the team for the following two it's a good trade. As I've said before, the other team has to think they've won the trade for the trade to work. Another narrative that I had a problem with is that Teheran would have cost Espinoza plus 2 other top prospects. There is a difference between what a team asks and what they get, I'd be willing that San Diego's very first proposal probably involved Espinoza+ or Moncada+ and something along the lines of DD offering a multip Prospect package or a you can have 1 of these guys not named Moncada or Benintendi took place. I would not be surprised if in an parallel universe a team like Atlanta would easily fold and be happy with just Espinoza for Teheran; however I'm very glad we traded for Pomeranz instead. Stepping back and looking at the big picture, DD has filled just about ever hole on this team. He brought in a RHH bat that can play multiple positions and take touch LHP at bats at 3B, he brought in a late innings reliever, and he brought in a guy who can perform at the top of the rotation. Considering this team has the best offense in baseball, and the potential for better internal performance in their pitching I think these moves will be HUGE down the stretch. As I said multiple pages back, I think you can hate and love this trade at the same time but I think I'm a bit more excited about it now that I was earlier.

Try reading your own garbage. Just try it....go ahead...

Back when I was a boston.com frequenter I started a draft thread for the 2015 draft. There were two names attached to the Sox who I really liked, Carson Fulmer and Andrew Benintendi. I admit I was more intrigued with Benintendi but I would have been really happy with Fulmer. Fulmer after a rocky start has done a pretty good job in AA over his last 7 starts he has a 3.51 ERA and has dramatically cut down on the walks striking out 3x as many. Again, I think we got a bigger stud in Andrew, and he's probably going to be one of the next draftees from that class to reach the majors but the White Sox are calling him up this week. If we had gone in this direction....we probably would have that 5th man for the rotation internally now, we also still might have Margot in the system and have him in LF currently too. Then again, we probably wouldn't have Kimbrel, I get it...the butterfly effect so who knows how things would have transpired but I just thought it was a cool thing to ponder. What might have been in a parallel universe.