Hugh2

Not traded, he got injured.

I heard that too, but I think that was Oaklands asking price, I'm sure they would have settled for less. Hill is much older than Pomeranz, with less control, and more injury risk.

I was kidnapped this weekend and missed the game, although I was able to follow the score. One thing I was curious about E-Rod was his pitch mix.

Point taken, what I meant was he's a stud in prospectedum.....which I guess should be analogous with could be.

You want a summary? Sox gave up a special talent They got great present value. They are showing they are going for it this year and helping their team for the following 2. DD has a good track record and has been working to plug every hole on this team this year. He got a bullpen arm, a RHH infield bat, and a good starting pitcher. Espinoza is a stud. Pomeranz might see even better days ahead.

I think that was more of his projected ceiling in terms of a MOTRS, the highest ceiling I've seen slapped on him from a credible source was #2 if everything broke right but there was a lot of talk of him being a #3#4 guy. If he ever harnesses his control I don't think that's completely out of the question but I think it's more realistic that he improves his command and control enough to crack a rotation but be more of a #4 guy. That may not be the most special projection in the world but if he could end up being that guy this season or next season at some point that would be huge on this team. I think you're right though, I see him as a useful trade chip at this point as well. Some guys need time to struggle and adjust at the MLB level, and a team in contention just can not afford to do that. We had the capacity to do that with JBJ and Bogaerts but not now, however I think that is an important note because even though his value has obviously dropped I don't think it's dropped as much as some people might think.

I'd love to see one or both of Erod/Owens step it up this year and be able to go into 2017 with a rotation of Price Pomeranz Porcello Wright Erod/Owens We have the triple B's in the lineup, and now we might have the triple P's in the rotation.

I don't have any quarrels with him. He was following the advise of his agent, which pretty much ever baseball player does. This could be the only golden egg he gets in his life, and 150K is 150K.

One thing I found encouraging about Owens start was he reportedly had much better control of his fastball. If he can do that with consistency then he can be a real option for us in the rotation sooner than later. I never thought Owens was going to be a TOTRS, and many scouts didn't either but I think he can be a really good solid #3 guy if he can make some real changes to his command.

So after a few days to ponder, read some scouting reports, watch some video, contemplate, get some rest, and get a few home cooked Colombian meals I think I've come around on this trade. I never really hated Pomeranz, and I actually advocated trading for him as opposed to Teheran weeks earlier in the trade thread. I only had a problem with the value the Sox gave up. Sometimes I don't necessarily disagree with a stance, but I have a problem with the argument. As someone who is prospect lover (or nut huger if you want to be a dick about it), and believes in building from within I guess I feel like people found it easy to discount the value we gave up and some of the red (perhaps more yellow at this point) flags around Pomeranz. I get it, as the old saying goes "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush" and this is the price of admission for a team that has a real chance to compete in the post season this year. With that said, I had a real problem with people thinking we sold high on Espinozas status based on his A league stats; he's the youngest player in the league and tiring mechanics likely is playing a large function of his performance. The sky is still the limit with this kid. Also, I found it very misleading and inappropriate to compare Owens to Espinoza because the greater scouting community that hypes up Espinoza as a potential true TOTRS and ace never had that level of praise for Henry Owens. The real risk with Espinoza, is his youth and his size, which is someone mitigated by his increase in size and his smooth mechanics and delivery that allows him to throw in the high 90's with ease and little wear and tear. However on the other side of the equation you have a guy like Pomeranz who by many accounts has made real adjustments making his new found status as a real TOTRS very real. I think you also can't discount DD's history of finding guys like Pomeranz and what we think he can be here. The only real guy that DD ever traded away that turned into a complete stud was Randy Johnson, but if you look at what he got back for him it wasn't exactly a bad trade. Again, this is the price of admission and I don't think we should discount the fact that the Sox F.O. has shown the team that they are invested in them, and are going for it. Trading away Espinoza might come back to bite us in the ass one day, but if Pomeranz gives us a real chance to win this year and helps the team for the following two it's a good trade. As I've said before, the other team has to think they've won the trade for the trade to work. Another narrative that I had a problem with is that Teheran would have cost Espinoza plus 2 other top prospects. There is a difference between what a team asks and what they get, I'd be willing that San Diego's very first proposal probably involved Espinoza+ or Moncada+ and something along the lines of DD offering a multip Prospect package or a you can have 1 of these guys not named Moncada or Benintendi took place. I would not be surprised if in an parallel universe a team like Atlanta would easily fold and be happy with just Espinoza for Teheran; however I'm very glad we traded for Pomeranz instead. Stepping back and looking at the big picture, DD has filled just about ever hole on this team. He brought in a RHH bat that can play multiple positions and take touch LHP at bats at 3B, he brought in a late innings reliever, and he brought in a guy who can perform at the top of the rotation. Considering this team has the best offense in baseball, and the potential for better internal performance in their pitching I think these moves will be HUGE down the stretch. As I said multiple pages back, I think you can hate and love this trade at the same time but I think I'm a bit more excited about it now that I was earlier.

Try reading your own garbage. Just try it....go ahead...

Back when I was a boston.com frequenter I started a draft thread for the 2015 draft. There were two names attached to the Sox who I really liked, Carson Fulmer and Andrew Benintendi. I admit I was more intrigued with Benintendi but I would have been really happy with Fulmer. Fulmer after a rocky start has done a pretty good job in AA over his last 7 starts he has a 3.51 ERA and has dramatically cut down on the walks striking out 3x as many. Again, I think we got a bigger stud in Andrew, and he's probably going to be one of the next draftees from that class to reach the majors but the White Sox are calling him up this week. If we had gone in this direction....we probably would have that 5th man for the rotation internally now, we also still might have Margot in the system and have him in LF currently too. Then again, we probably wouldn't have Kimbrel, I get it...the butterfly effect so who knows how things would have transpired but I just thought it was a cool thing to ponder. What might have been in a parallel universe.

Hudson Belinsky ‏@hudsonbelinsky Nick Quintana (11th rd/Red Sox) and Zack Smith (15th rd/Guardians) will not sign. Quintana is committed to Arizona, Smith to UNC Charlotte. After I saw what Groome signed for I was optimistic we would have enough money to sign Quintana, I did not forsee Dabec going so much overslot. Oh well, this draft was really all about Groome.

Which is probably why the Sox waited until they had Groome signed before making the trade. It's the same theme as the Margot trade, a lot of people thought the Sox overpaid but it was DD being proactive and pretty much avoiding a bidding war by just offering a really good price. He also traded from a position of strength because the Sox already have JBJ/Betts with Beintendi on the way. I get it I do, you can afford to overpay, and it's the price for admission to improve the big league club which is what ultimately matters. My main point is (and DD has a history of this) if you continue to make moves like this there will come a time when your system is gutted and you have nothing left to come up and fill the ranks when you lose these guys to free agency. Maybe DD doesn't do that here, but this is what many people were afraid of when he came here and at the rate he's going.....2 of Moncada, Devers and Benintendi may be gone over the next 365 days.

Well luckily for me I don't have to go tell them that now do I?

I don't think I know more about prospects than other people. Some people just say some things that make it sound like they are clueless, and that does not pertain to everyone in here I've been arguing with and I apologize if some people think that. But if people think a prospect isnt' good because of his slash line at 18 in A ball, or if they think a guy like Espinoza is comparable to Henry Owens then I would at the very least say they are putting up lazy arguments. But I'll back of the Sox on Sox crime for now.

I've followed baseball since 1994.....go crawl back under your hole sox fans are talking. Was your team not a dynasty when they developed and kept all those players???? yes they traded and signed FA's to fill the gaps over the years but it was AFTER they already had developed and kept that core of guys.

This was the same guy who said he didn't give a s*** about his minor league stats when I pointed out Travis Shaw couldn't hit lefties. Looks like DD agreed with me there. People who make these kind of statements usually aren't huge prospect followers and look at box score here and there. The most talented prospects can have bad seasons for COUNTLESS reasons that is in no way an indictment on their talent. Nolan Ryan pitched 78 innings with exactly Espinozas 4.38 era in rookie ball. Randy Johnson much older in A ball (21) had a 5.93 ERA, only 27 ip though. Noah Syndergaard at 21 was in AAA and in 133 innings pitched put up a 4.40 ERA but he was still a consensus top 10 prospect in all of baseball because everyone knew how talented he was. So if someone in here without any scouting references or first hand knowledge wants to tell me Espinoza doesn't have talent through the roof because of a A ball slash line at 18 with nothing else to go on.....I'm going to tell them they are full of s***.

You should be excluded from this conversation. You're a Yankees fan and therefore have zero concept of what it is like to have a farm system and have guys come up and contribute. Just because Espinoza hasn't pitched a lot of innings doesn't mean he's not one of the most talented young pitchers in the game. There is a reason why he's one of BA's MLB.com's BP's Fangraphs and everyone elses top ranked pitching prospect. Young pitchers need to build up strength and stamina, you don't go from pitching 40-50 innings a season to pitching 200. That's how you get TJ surgey, or a blown out shoulder.

I would trade Trey Ball for a bag of balls. While top 10 draft picks pan out much more often even they are completely busts sometimes even #1 overall picks are. The Trey Ball draft class was considered a very weak class and in hindsight the Sox picked the wrong guy...so what? teams that picked there every year a decade would swing and miss on year and hit the jackpot the next. The Orioles drafted Matt Hobgood one year in the top ten and then Manny Machado the very next in the top ten. Think of draft picks as lottery tickets with higher chances to win the higher your pick is, even a top ten pick isn't a sure thing but you have much higher chance. Sox were no different than the Orioles, they swung and missed on Ball and hit the jack pot a few years later with Benintendi. Also to reiterate my point one reason the Sox have NOT been able to develop starters is they have not had pitching prospects with the pedigree of Groome, and Espinoza in their system in a long time. Owens didn't have that pedigree, Barnes didn't have that pedigree, Webster didn't, nobody has in recent years. Now this comes with the obvious caveat that he's still a young pitching prospect who can completely bust, I'm well aware of that and I don't understand why some in here feel the need to keep on bringing that up. But I remember hearing on a (I think it was) a B.A. chat that if Espinoza was state side and a HS senior he'd been in contention for the #1 pick in the draft. Again, high end talent can bust, even the #1 pick in the draft can bust but we've not had a talent like Espinoza in our system for a long time and we gave if up for a reliever who in just once season has become a good starter. Ok, I think this may be a better way of laying out my argument. If Pomeranz had been a MLB starter his entire MLB career, and put up the numbers he's putting up this year this would be a really good trade for the Sox and I'd be on board with it, but he hasn't. He's a reliever who has converted back to a starter successfully for 1/2 a season. He has ZERO track record of holding that up in the post season let alone a 32 game season. People are acting like we got a proven commodity we didn't, DD took a risk. Now that risk might pay off big time, maybe Pom is the next Max Scherzer and he wins the Cy Young next year for all we know, but people are ok trading away a highly regarded prospect because they are risky and acting like there is zero risk here. Maybe they are just underestimating the risk I'm not sure, but that is the way I see things.

I don't care. That doesn't mean anything.

But that's the wrong way of looking at it. Not all prospects are the same A, B the Sox haven't really drafted high end talent pitching prospects. Sure they took guys like Owens and Barnes but they were late 1st round picks, how many late first round hitters make it? Most teams DON'T develop top end pitching because it is one of the rarest commodities in baseball. And, I'd also argue that both Groome and Espinoza are not comparable to any pitching prospect they've had in the minors in quite some time so you don't really have an apples to apples comparison with keeping those two in the system compared to pitching prospects over the last several years. The closes thing I can think of to the Groome/Espinoza/Kopech trio was back in 05 I believe they had Buchholz, Lester, Papelbon, and Anibal Sanchez in the system.

I agree, Pedey would be long gone by now and Moncada would be your future 2nd. Actually Betts would probably be your 2nd baseman right now.

Dude stop making straw man arguments. No prospect is a sure thing, but if you draft and develop better than everyone else then odds are you will be better in the long run by hoarding them. Think of it this way the Sox got screwed over by not selling high on Bryce Brentz, Henry Owens (maybe), Will middlebrooks, and Lars Anderson....but that Hoarding mentality also led to a team that has Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, Vasquez, and Shaw on it. I dont' know if Espinoza is a sure thing, if Groome will be a sure thing or if Kopech will be a sure thing but I'd be willing to bet one of those guys develops into a much better pitcher than Pomeranz....and with a a little luck 2-3 of them might and then all of a sudden you have what the Mets have in your rotation.

How about not saying things I didn't say....although while we're on the subject he has been compared to Pedro Martinez by others. Funny you should bring that up.