Hugh2

Lets also not pretend that Price has been worth much the past three years. Since he's been traded away he's averaged 36 innings a season.

What makes you think they could have got more? Not just with Betts but any situation like this that arises I find the argument silly saying "oh they could have got more". Like a G.M. picks up a phone and makes an offer and Bloom thinks "well gee golly gosh Philly was offering more but you say nice things to me DEAL" do you have any proof they were offered more? regardless of whether or not you liked or agreed with the Betts trade, I think any reasonable baseball fan can acknowledge that a businessman is always going to take the best offer. If I put something out to bid on Ebay I'm not selling it to the 2nd or 3rd highest bidder, it's going to the highest bidder. If there is real evidence of a deal on the table that was much better that someone could present this argument would hole weight. To my knowledge, it does not.

Yes David Price would have helped this team with his 35 innings this year.

What direction was he going in last year?

Hater is not the same as hate. It’s a slang word that probably equates more to a basher, which is many are. And that’s fine, like you say all are entitled to their opinion. Embrace it

The Bloom haters effectively want the 2019 Red Sox. Shouldn't have traded Benintendi, Betts. That team was stacked, Bogaerts, Betts, Devers, Vaz, Benintendi, and had two cy young winners plus Chris Sale. They still finished 3rd with only 84 wins. Won the world series the year before. Similar to this team....sometimes it just ain't your year.

If you don't completely hate Bloom and want him fired it doesn't mean you support every move and think he's an amazing GM either. Only Sith deals in absolutes.

I can't argue against failing to resign stars, but you can't fault someone for a "low ball" offer. If Pedroia never resigned with the Sox it would have been a low ball offer, if Bogaerts never took his first extension it would have been a low ball offer, Whitlock might have been lowballed in hindsight if he develops the way we hope. No one starts off a negotiation by putting their best deal on the table. I don't know much about running a baseball team and signing players, but I am a president of a company and I get involved in negotiating all the time. You offer ABC, they offer XYZ and you work towards finding something in the middle. I don't buy the whole "oh this offer was insulting" no....that's not how it works. The proper protocol is to counter with an offer. That's how negotiations work. Now, this is just conjecture, but I'd be willing to bet we didn't hear about Boras and company coming back and asking for 320/10 for Bogaerts. If that was the case the Sox did the right thing by saying "lets talk later" when he gets nowhere close to that the Sox could come back in and start negotiating something more reasonable. Maybe that's not how it always works out, maybe he signs somewhere else, but that's how negotiating works. If we did that with Mookie and Bogaerts by now we'd still have Mookie on this team but probably no Kike, no story, no Eovaldi, no Pham, and no Renfroe, because the Sox aren't going to have a 290 million dollar payroll and that would be before locking Devers up. So think of all the holes on this team coming up over the next couple years getting filled by who? Seabold and Wong? See, that's the thing you guys never think of. You can't have the same team as is and just add in the players you want to keep without stepping back and saying hmmmmm the Sox probably aren't going to have a 290-300 million dollar payroll. Yeah, we want stars but do you want Josh Winckoski in your rotation, Juran Duran, and Franchy Cordero in your outfield? If Story isn't signed and Arroyo played full time and got hurt Jeter Downs is your 2nd baseman. You have to build a 25 man roster. One guy, no matter how good is never going to bring you a world series. Yes, it's frustrating to sign your stars and it would be a disaster to let all of Betts, Bogaerts, and Devers walk but a Good G.M. (whether or not Bloom is one is irrelevant to the point) looks at the big picture. The Angels have had the two best players in baseball and how has that worked out for them?

Stop being so rational, logical and insightful.

Haven’t gone too far back so maybe I missed something but - Wacha, Pivetta, Seabold, among a few other depth guys and relievers were also Bloom additions. Bloom seems to be pretty good at constructing an amazing rotation 3-5, just can’t get the 1-2 down. Although they were probably banking on a healthy Sale. Would be nice to get a TOTRS regardless of what’s Sales future is.

And yes I’m aware I’m kind of coming off as a dick. I’m sorry, we all take our frustrations of this season out in our own ways. I can’t help it. I’m sorry.

I can agree with Chris Sale can not be counted on in 2023 and should be treated as if he won’t. If he comes back healthy it will be a HUGE bonus for the team, but they need to operate as if he won’t.

Haha ok, but If you live in the world of baseball when you what scouts, GMs, managers, and people talk about a pitchers stuff, they’re sharing my opinion. So to act like this is a matter of opinion is just a little absurd, because your changing what having “stuff” is in the general baseball world. I could say strawberries taste like lemon, or I’m emperor of Mars because “I have my opinion” your opinion is based on your misunderstanding of what “stuff” is. Or at least in the context of talking about a MLB pitcher.

I think some are confusing “stuff” with results. Chris Sale can longer produce results consistently. For several years now he’s had little success getting into game action and compiling innings. His results effing stink. He still has 80 innings of baseball on top of simulated games in which pitches are still measured. We know for a fact his “stuff” is still there, he just can’t produce “results” because he keeps getting injured. Here is how you guys end up being right and I end up being wrong. Imagine everything working out exactly the same the last few years except when Chris Sale did come back his fastball is only sitting 89-90 MPH, he has little separation between his change, his spin rate is down and he’s not getting the vertical drop he once was. He would then be a guy who looks like he didn’t recover from his surgery and is now injury prone. He can’t stay healthy and his stuff is gone. He can’t stay on the field and if he did we’d have little confidence in him producing results because his stuff is gone. This is not reality, or at least it’s only half of it. Sales “stuff” is clearly still great. Just not the results because of his injuries. Just because some of y’all are cynical and hot and bothered doesn’t mean you can rewrite reality and change the nature of things. Facts matter. Will be waiting to laugh at how this gets spun, pun intended.

Obviously you have no ideal of what having stuff is. I get you you’re a very cynical person but you don’t get to just change the definition of things. Chris Sale has thrown innings in 2021/2022 since returning from injuries and his “stuff” which includes vertical break, horizontal break, and velocity remain elite. Just because he can’t stay healthy enough to help this team and you get all hot and bothered by it doesn’t change the definition of things.

I’m placing zero betts on Sale. I made the simple comment that “if he can stay healthy he’s a top of the rotation starter”. That doesn’t mean I have any faith he’s going to be that next year, he has to prove it. I merely am pointing out the FACT that he hasn't lost his stuff. You realize we can measure this right? We have radar guns, and advanced cameras that measure vertical/horizontal drop and spin rate right? Chris Sale still has amazing stuff, he just sucks at staying healthy right now and maybe he always will. Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

No it doesn’t. If you can’t throw strikes it’s either because you’re hurt or your mechanics are off. You can critique mechanics and heal from injury. Now maybe you get hurt and never fully recover and as a result of that you lose your stuff. Some pitchers have amazing stuff but enjoy little success because they don’t have control, but they still had amazing stuff.

Again sample size is less relevant here. You can make a good pitch and a hitter gets a hit on soft contact inflating the stats in opposite directions of what you’d expect. But stuff is stuff. If you throw 95, 93, 99 or whatever it’s, that’s what you throw. What your spin rate is is what it’s. This translates to all sports, or any physical act. If I jump 5 feet, I jump 5 feet. It’s not luck, it’s a real outcome. If we look at Chris Sales stuff, despite the small sample size it’s still there. This should have ANYONE optimistic about how he would perform if he can stay on the field. Maybe that’s a BIG IF, maybe people on this forum have zero confidence in his ability to ever stay healthy again. Those are fair viewpoints based on the last few years but let me revert to my original statement that started all this. If Chris Sale can stay healthy he’s still a TOTRS, I’d bet my first born child on that. Because all the picthing data backs it up, sample size be damned. If he was throwing 90 MPH I wouldn’t be stating these facts, because those wouldn’t be them.

Aaaaaaand how does this correlate to stuff?

The only real "data" you have to back up your point is 2019 in which he was obviously pitching hurt. You can't take a guy who is an ACE, has one bad season in which is elbow blows up and then take that data which OBVIOUSLY is a reflection of him pitching hurt, and then say he's lost his stuff since returning from an injury. That's a very skewed way of thinking. Unfortunately, we don't have a large sample size since 2019, but he did look pretty darn good in 2021, and the pitch data we have in terms of spin rate and velotiy PROVE his stuff has not diminished.

That wasn't my point I was making an analogy, I could say 94 MPH or 93 MPH or 99 MPH. What matters is his velocity relative to his average velocity. His stuff is not gone.

Not with a broken bone in his wrist he can't.

Dropped to what? 11 per 9? that's still elite. He led the league once with 10.8 and finished 3rd in CY Young voting. His career average is 11.1 So 11 seems right on the mark for him.

Yes! This isn’t the outcome of hundred or thousands of at bats. You can either pitch 95 MPH or you can’t. Me and you can play basketball 1x1 right now and I could drop a three on you. That would be luck because I suck but it could be skill or it could be luck. You proceed to dunk on me. I can’t say that’s luck, you can’t by chance do something you’re physically unable to do. If you’re pitching 95 MPH you’re pitching 95 MPH. Your data from a 3 year sample is mostly 2019. Weighing that year heavily, in which he was OBVIOUSLY pitching hurt. How can you say a guy hasn’t recovered from an injury by using his numbers while injured?

And then his numbers dropped, and then his elbow blew up? could it be that his numbers dropped because of the injury? Seems like a no-brainer yes to me. You take that into consideration and look at his peripherals in 2021 and his velocity/spin data since his surgery and it's obvious that his stuff has not dimished. Doesn't mean squat if he can't stay on the mound but saying Sales stuff isn't there anymore is just flat out wrong.