dannycater

Exactly....great insightful post on what if Mueller had been hitting into today's shift environment. The fact is the shortstop probably would be waiting for his single up the middle to scoop up and throw Bill out 6-3.

Yes, results oriented is true, and that's why I brought up this thread because I'm bucking the norm by NOT USING THE RESULT to critique, but using the idea of how should you approach a series-clincher if you have the house cards on your side. By the time Kimbrel recorded his "save" there were no cards left, and Kimbrel hit on an 18 v. a 9 showing and landed a 3. When we are given 2 high cards, I'd like to think we can use some odds to our advantage. So yes in this case, Sale pitches the start of the 9th and Kimbrel waits for his opp, or Sale sails through the 9th, the Sox clinch, we all pour champagne, and Cora is still a genius. Now again, I didn't say don't bring in Kimbrel. I said be aware that he may not always have his control. If he doesn't, you better think fast, real fast. I feel better if I see someone warming up, maybe 2, hell 3 at that point. He pushed all the right buttons, Cora, BUT we had to have a spectacular 2-way defensive play to record out 3. The result is great, but for a genius, Cora stopped short in that bottom of the 9th. He pulled a Grady Little that worked, and that's the truth.

To moon's point. The Sox best pitcher is Sale. Sale was sailing, unlike Pedro in 03. Sale is my guy, not shaky Kimbrel at that point too.

Kimbrel's inning was entirely on Kimbrel. Every part of it. Before the hit by Gregorious, it was Gregorious who instinctively, but actually not smart jumped away from a ball that was going to make it 1st and 2nd. So that's 2 HBP in that inning even if he doesn't get a hit. Sanchez laid into that ball because the fact was that he knew Kimbrel could not be cute anymore. He had to throw him a strike and it was a good swing, Fenway HR actually. Look he got out of it, and lots of closers get out of jams, and it ended well....but you don't not warm up other guys. You don't have to automatically remove a guy after a 1-2-3 inning, and as far I'm concerned Chris Sale should have started the 9th inning with Kimbrel ready to go at a moment's notice. I don't really give a s*** about Game 5 when it's 4-1 in the 9th inning of a clincher at NY. I also don't care at that point about who starts game 1 of the ALCS on a Saturday. Win the game, show a sense of urgency, and think outside the box (which I thought Cora is known for) to do that. That's all folks.

And you don't bring me flowers...anymore.

For the record, I for one do not care one iota who is pitching when the final out occurs. It can be Joe Kelly, David Price, Ryan Brasier, Workman, Hembree, I don't care. As long as it's someone getting outs and not choking on the big stage.

It's overanalyzing, which I hate, but Cora brings a lot on himself by holding to different standards for different guys/situations, etc. Is Kimbrel a light's out closer? Sometimes he is, but again, I see no reason in an elimination game or clinching game to have others warming up....just in case a meltdown is taking place. And yesterday was indeed a meltdown.

Once he gets wild, he starts to force pitches. Sanchez's ball thankfully hit at Yankee Stadium, not Fenway, or you are whistling a different story.

Are we trying to win the game, or make a pitcher happy?

Bellhorn, I had no problem bringing in Kimbrel. My problem was he was erratic by every pitch and then the shot of the empty bullpen. Sorry, that's wrong.

My point is you don't always have to go to Kimbrel, that's all. If it's 6-1 and it's the 9th inning of a clinching game and Brasier just sailed throw a 1-2-3 8th, let Brasier throw the 9th. This isn't about feelings. It's about winning and he's blown 5 saves-Kimbrel--and he's had some real issues in his postseason career with control.

But in all honesty, even with "confidence" or lack thereof in a Kelly or a Price or even a Workman. They all should have been warming up with the intent of going in, while Kimbrel was firing pitch 1 in the 9th. If the Sox choked game 4, don't really care who lost 25 warmup pitches in game 4 pen.

Personally? I would have let Barnes start the 7th, Brasier start the 8th...guy is cruising, then leave him in. Why not shorten the number of pitchers if you got a hot hand. But that's me.

Going back to 03, while I loved Pedro, he looked like he was out of gas, but he made some good pitches, the Posada hit was a good pitch. I wanted Embree or Timlin to come in and yes they have been known to have their issues too, but it just seemed like we were waiting for the worst to happen as the pitch count went 123,124,125. I still go to Timbree

That's what I saw too, but if Kelly was up, then good.

I didn't have time to find a spot about something that I'm sure has been discussed probably in other threads, but here it goes. Alex Cora is a genius, well argued by his current 111 wins. He made all the right moves v. Yankees, plays Holt/Devers, goes back to Nunez/Kinsler. Pulls Porcello early, brings in Sale. Has relievers start innings and then has them on a 1-inning leash period--123 or with baserunners. He gives the whole logic of not hitting Holt after the Cycle, how the matchups do this, and that. And he's been right. .... Now, here's my problem with Alex Cora in game 4 yesterday. This is a guy who made sure he pulled Price before it had any potential of going uglier than 3 runs. This is the guy who takes Sale out after 16 outs due to pitch count. He set this game to go to Kimbrel in the 9th. And why not, 42 saves, and looked brilliant in the 5-4 win at home, etc. When Kimbrel was clearly wild, not getting a breaking ball over for a strike, missing on low fastballs inside, outside, hits a batter, almost hit another batter...In all this, there is a shot of an empty Sox bullpen. OUTRAGEOUSLY STUPID for analytics/strategy/today's game. Grady Little lost his job for putting all his faith in Pedro. Cora decided to do the same with Kimbrel. I say ********! How come it's okay to put leashes and limits and play with pitchers based on performance and time, then turn right around and go "oh, well Craig is on his own, and I'm not budging." Am I saying you go to another reliever/starter to replace him at any point. Hell yes. He should have had Workman and Price and whomever else had a live arm warming up to face anyone. Electric stuff, 99 fastballs don't mean anything if you can't throw strikes. It's a complete double standard to put all your eggs in one basket (one pitcher). No way. If the philosophy is maximize performance, prevent any Yankee comeback by using your pen, then Kimbrel was not doing his job. He got the save out of sheer luck. The ball hit by Sanchez was over the Monster and it's possible that if a lefthanded Moreland was at 1st, the ball would have skipped past him on Nunez rushed throw, game over. Bottom line, he went like the old time managers with his closer. Live by my closer, die by my closer. ******** again. That philosophy cost the 1986 Red Sox. There is no rule now that says you have to have a set closer anyway. There are so many things that being done backward, including relievers who start, and starters who relief, and pitch counts that are becoming more like 65 than a 100, that everything is open and on the table as far as closing a game. You had Sale and he was sailing, tell me if 90 percent of the Sox fans didn't think it would be better to just let Sale finish off a series-clincher. There was no need other than pride and the closer-belief that prompted going to Kimbrel. It was just an assumption, but made a foregone conclusion. Let this be a lesson that you don't have to use Kimbrel to closer no matter what. You don't have to do it if you got Porcello in the pen or Sale or it's a series clincher. If Kimbrel is wild, which he is prone to do in big games, it's a circus out there. Last night was a heart attack that went the Sox way. Had Brasier or Barnes walked a single batter, you can bet they are 1 step away from being pulled. Kimbrel? Oh, he has a different set of limits, rules. Nobody warming up in the pen with the game on the line is stupidity. Win or lose. This is the playoffs. This is all bets and standard practices are off. Sale should have started the 9th and if he gave up a baserunner, then maybe I go to Kimbrel. Not just automatically bring him in because he's the closer, and that's it. Yes, it all ended well, but the Astros will not leave Kimbrel off the hook if he gets wild again. Have relievers warming up, and don't go "Price? are you crazy!". It's not about the pitcher who comes in as much as it's about throwing strikes and not giving away bases due to wildness. Thank you, back to celebrating, Go Sox!!! Go Cora!! Let's win 119.

Spike!!!!

Start spreading the newzzzzz....Sox win! Sox win!

That was the nastiest changeup ever....Hicks died

Nunez proving that Cora is a goddamn genius

Willoughby in the 8th

CC didn't make a difference....just like Price

Cora = Genius = Sit Cycle guy and still not get hurt

Pearce with a terrific at bat...set up the inning...he took 2 high pitches, he fouls a few off, then knock to CF....had to kill CC after the HBP

Team A, Team B....win, win, rinse, repeat, win some more