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I disagree. In December through March, this board was loaded with negativity. Almost everyone predicted another last place finish. Very few said anything positive. And this was before we all saw Chris Sale put the Fountain of Youth into a Time Machine. And all of those last place prognosticators could still be right. But right or not, they’re being very negative, and certainly not saying anything Cora or the players want to hear (which they won’t). Isn’t that worse? The folks calling for sell offs are doing the same thing, but are at least suggesting follow up actions. Granted, no one who needs those suggestions will hear it. But again, what’s better baseball talk? What is Chris Martin worth in a trade? Or why won’t John Henry spend money anymore? The negativity is always here. It doesn’t start with the seller talk. Some of the fire sale people go all in and expect an air strike and a complete rebuild if the Sox give up multiple runs in 3 or more consecutive innings. Those guys are a little crazy. But hoping to turn a mediocre Nick Pivetta into something decent next month? Not the most negative thing in my eyes. I get how seller talk can be annoying when the team is doing well overall and you just want to get some teams behind Boston in the postseason hunt. I just can’t think of it as the bottom of negativity…

Before the season, I really liked Houck, Crawford and Bello in the rotation. I still do, although they’re not as fire as they were in April. But I hope they can extend Houck and keep those guys around. I’ve never liked Whitlock as a starter, much like everyone on this forum. I’m not throwing any new, deep insight out there with that. But so far multiple CBOs appear to like him there. Certainly economics is part of that. But also at some point, I’m not so sure our view of the Sox starting pitching aligns with that of the people in the front office…

Exactly. But wow has this flopped. The guy who was supposed to at a minimum, supply IP, is out for the year. The guy they didn’t think could supply IP is not only supplying them, but is doing so with an efficiency we haven’t seen out of him since 2018. Even if the Sox kept Sale, I would have thought the 2019 version was best case scenario. The hot prospect has been sick, injured, absent, and ineffective when he does show up. And the guys the hot prospect was supposed to replace each showed they are capable of carrying the team for short stretches. And those complete and utter lack of upgrades only cost the team about $7.5mill!!

Yeah but those types are putting a positive spin on a team they view negatively. “Hey this team is no good, but we can use that to make the future brighter!!” types. As much as I don’t want fire sales, they are a legitimate way to improve the future, and discussing potential Jansen trades is far more appealing baseball talk to me than complaining about John Henry. (Not that those of you out there who spend weekends sticking pins in your little Sam Kennedy dolls are misunderstood by me. In fact, where did you get that Kennedy doll? And do they have one for Werner?)

Some folks are negative because the venting is cathartic. If you need this forum to let out some Sox-related frustration, and clacking some keys here keeps you from actually performing Schrödinger’s Cat, I get it. Of course there are a few who show up in darker times and tell us we’re stupid for being Sox fans are a different matter…

No need. I had re-read a lot of this thread recently, and you were clearly on a very short list of people who objected that day. The bulk of the crowd here were frustrated with Sale repeatedly getting hurt, had little faith in his health, probably had little faith in his abilities as he hadn’t really displayed them much over the last four years, and many were at least glad the Sox tried to use his trade to get a good player rather than just dumping all his cash, which is something they’ve had chances to do. I get why Breslow made it, assuming his logic agrees with my thoughts. But this one couldn’t have worked out much worse…

… and that he would get to that lower payroll at full throttle…

On the bright side, he gets out of starting tomorrow’s game thread…

That’s my plan…

I think the only ranked prospects moved last year at the deadline were for Scherzer and Verlander, both of whom were under control this year. And in both cases, the Mets kicked in lots of money…

Does Dombrowski count as an objective observer? Because at the trade deadline that year, he added a starter, not a reliever. Cashner did become a massive flop after starting 6 games with an ERA over 8.00 and was eventually moved to the bullpen. But if the bullpen was the obvious problem, why didn’t he add a reliever?

I agreed with the rotation stuff. I felt it was understated. And sorry, the 2019 bullpen was better than the 2018. And blown saves are irrelevant towards that, as shown. Sure they were not as good at closer in 2019, but the closer is only one of 8 guys in the bullpen. Saying the bullpen is worse because of the closer is like saying the 2019 lineup is better because Brock Holt was an upgrade over Eduardo Nunez/Ian Kinsler…

This team would be much better without this trade and the subsequent Giolito signing. No one disputes that. But there is a difference between a stupid trade and one that simply doesn’t work out…

No one is saying the trade has worked out. Just that it made more sense in January when no one knew Sale would actually be healthy and Giolito wouldn’t…

I went thru the game logs for the 2019 bullpen. I found 29 of their blown saves. Their record in those 29 games - 13 wins 16 losses. Granted, I never went thru to see if any games had multiple blown saves. That’s too much to ask. But with that bullpen, a blown save is not an indicator of a loss…

Also in post 546, you ask if I don’t think the Sox could have gambled on Sale. I responded that they lost that gamble four times already, referring to him getting injured in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023. Your response? “Makes zero sense.” I’m fairly certain you and I did not view Sale as the same level of injury risk, and you do seem to be strongly downplaying his injury history. At least that’s what is coming across here…

Also in your posting history, you bring up the Dodgers gambling on Glasnow. The Dodgers, very much like the Braves, are loaded with starting pitching in the upper minors, which is why those teams can make those gambles. The Red Sox are not, largely due to questionable drafting by Bloom, Cherington, and (to a much lesser extent) Dombrowski. The Sox just aren’t in the same place…

I did. Your viewpoint comes across like you think Sale was just as likely to get injured as anyone else, despite his losing significant time 4 seasons in a row. And in post 663, you state you find injury histories to be all but irrelevant. Exact quote ”What seems clear to me is that past injuries do not necessarily predict future injuries” Also, earlier you downplayed that Sale was 35, after it was pointed out that’s is not uncommon for players at that age often lose effective quickly and without warning. Your response was along the lines of that can happen at any age. I agree budget had an impact, but I totally understand why the Sox felt the need to move on. He was a gamble, pure and simple. Injury histories are absolutely relevant. And his high cost made him a logical candidate to find a buyer. Grissom hasn’t worked out, but I was glad they at least tried to get something for Sale, rather than trading him and less money for a 30yo AAAA player or equivalent. And if Sale’s 2024 was looking like his 2020, 2021, 2022, or 2023, no one is disagreeing with this trade. If you look back at this thread to when it happened, the overwhelming majority of the posts at least understood why it was being done…

And Imanaga would have been great, although I admit his success to date is extremely surprising. But adding more pitchers only strengthens the argument that it made sense to try to move on from Sale…

I’ll admit, I would have been disappointed if they counted on Sale being healthy again for another year. So I would right now be pleasantly surprised with the results…

Well the plan at the time was Giolito was much less likely to get injured. Just because you think she and injury history are irelevant with the health of a pitcher doesn’t change the reality that they are. The plan was to swap out a pitcher who was averaging less than 40 IP per season with one averaging 150 IP per season, and in the process fixing their weakest starting position from 2023. And those two combined upgrades only cost $7mill-ish. Obviously, nothing has worked out so far. But none of that was as obvious in December as you seem to think it was. And this trade has exploded with everything going wrong that could have gone wrong. But no one knew that was going to happen. And their idea was to get more IP plus get a 2b option out of the $27.5mill they spent on Sale. Did you enjoy the depth Sale gave the Sox last year? Because they were reportedly offered a trade in which they gave up Sale’s whole contract at the 2022 trade deadline, and Bloom turned it down. Apparently he wanted a legit prospect for Sale. And then Sale followed up the Sox keeping him by going for a bike ride and ending his season…

Yes. They had budget limitations. That’s why gambling on Sale was not the obvious solution…

I think the plan was to use Sale’s salary to increase the volume of starting pitching, which they did. Having a surplus of starting pitching was why Atlanta was in a better position to take on Sale, despite your refusal to believe it. If Boston kept Sale and he went down again, who steps up? Atlanta had Bryce Elder, Spencer Schwellenback, Dylan Dodd, AJ Smith-Shawver, Hurston Waldrep, etc. all in AAA waiting to step up. Let this fact about the comparative depth of both teams - the Braves had more MLB All Stars pitching in AAA at the start of the year than the Red Sox had in Boston. If the Sox kept Sale, they feared their depth below him made them too exposed…

Are all your arguments going to hinge on Sale being just as likely to get injured as any player in MLB? And that injury history is meaningless?

I bet I can name more 35yos where it happened than you can name 25yos who did…