moonslav59

Yeah, you're right. It's Ben's fault that the guy Theo signed (Lackey) was hurt all 2012, the guy Theo extended (Beckett) sucked in 2012, Lester had his career worst season and the fill-ins: Dice-K, Cook and Doubront didn't help much. The fact is, the rotation that imploded in 2011 sucked or was hurt in 2012 too. If people want to blame Ben for 2012 while others give Theo credit for 2013, then there's not much I can say. I don't think hiring Bobby V was Ben's idea. There's no doubt Ben missed badly with Pablo. Many felt he missed badly with HanRam too, before 2016. He'd still be here, if those guys just hit 90% of their career norms. Ben made a lot of moves I was against. I don't want to sound like an apologist for the moves he made. I was against many of them (Pablo, HanRam, Vic, Dempster and Masterson). The Tito firing looks bad now, but who knows if that is on Ben or Larry, and besides, many fans thought the clubhouse turmoil demanded Tito's firing. Ben did some great things though. Napoli, Uehara and rebuilding a farm system Theo left on the decline. He got us out from under Theo's biggest mistake: Crawford and shed Beckett in the process. He set the team of for the long run and was yanked before it really had a chance to show the fruits of his labor. His FAs bombed worse than DD's. For that he is gone, and I'm not losing sleep over his departure.

Yeah, the rotation Ben got from Theo. It's not Tito's fault they sucked. It's not Theo's fault they sucked. But it's Ben's fault that same rotation had us 11.5 games behind with 4 days to go to the deadline that saw the great purge.

I actually think Buch or Pom will be in the pen, if everyone is healthy. Wright's my 4th starter right now.

Wright has actually did pretty well before 2016. He had a 3.96 ERA as a starter last year in 9 starts. Over his 35 career MLB starts: 16-11 3.52 (1.24 WHIP) AAA: 3.67 in 52 starts AA: 3.51 ERA in 50 starts I kept hearing the same thing about Wake. Nobody expects a great knuckleballer to repeat his greatness.

We traded Espi and have Kopech and Groome.

That's why I keep mentioning Frazier, but he's not worth a significant overpay.

Despite his poor ending to 2016, I agree. I doubt we sign him though.

So Ben failed to extend and ended up trading away our "horrible rotation" and then you hold it against him. Hmmm....

You mean the great one Theo assembled and Tito directed? The one left for Ben? (Lester, Lackey, Beckett, Wake & Bedard subbing for Buch. We had Andrew Miller and Paplebon in the pen.

It's hard to know for sure what Ben might have done had he stayed, but I'm pretty certain he'd have signed a big pitcher and addressed the pen needs.

Maybe it wouldn't have gotten out, but what happened was clearly "turmoil" or worse. It was a mess.

Agreed, but with all that clubhouse turmoil, letting Tito go made some sense at the time.

Ben also built the farm that DD has and is going to use to take all the credit for getting us out of the cellar.

The 2011 team "tanked". The clubhouse was in turmoil like never before. Have you forgotten the state of the team from 2011 to 2012? We were 11.5 games out 4 days before the deadline in 2012. What a great team Ben inherited! They were sure great "on paper"! Then, he makes 3 mid-level signings (Naps, Viv & Demp) and the team comes together and wins a ring. Had HanRam played like 2016 in 2015, we wouldn't have finished in last place. I guess that's Ben's fault. DD makes big glitzy signings and trades and we don't advance past the first round, and he gets your pat on the back.

Come on now - you know that you are hindsight's master. 100% wrong. I have never said "I told you so" after price, Kimbrel and Pom all failed to reach expectations. I was highly critical of the trades the second they occurred. That's not "hindsight". I'm also not one to try and blame everything on one guy or player. I was the last to call for Bobby V's firing. I didn't even complain about leaving Pedro in. The Red Sox have made a ton of huge deals over the years. Some have worked out, more I guess have not. I'll leave that up to you. I like DD's moves because they have been rational and seem to make sense. Of course we all wish that Kimbrel and Price could have shown the dominance that they have shown but who knew? None of us really wanted to see Smith get injured. DD has not simply thrown crap against the wall in hopes that some would stick as his predecessors have done. Sensible moves in the present tense! We'll see how this off-season works out for him. I liked the Carson Smith and Ziegler deals at the time they were made. I have said so many times. I'm not upset with DD. I realize why he made the deals I disliked just like I did with the Iggy trade and the great 2014 pitcher purge. I also called (at the time of the trade) the Dodger Dump "perhaps the best trade made by a Sox GM in my lifetime". I'm not always against trades and signings. I liked the Porcello trade and extension AT THE TIME. I liked the Napoli signing and re-signing. I liked the Uehara trade, AT THE TIME, and the re-signings.

Never said he sucks. Never even said he was below average.

GMs are judged in hindsight. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. I don't like assigning blame when things go wrong, and since we went from last to first, "going wrong" is debatable. I am often critical of individual moves by our GMs, but I don't think of it as "blaming them". They have enormous pressure on them to win now, and my philosophy is more about looking longer term. Theo even admitted he lost sight of the longer term in his later years in Boston. I disliked DD's biggest moves at the time, so this is not Monday morning quarterbacking for me. The biggest move was signing Price with an out option after 3 years. The money was absurd, but in today's market, he "got what he was worth". However, most big signings do not work out, even in the short term. I said at the time, I understood the great need to add an ace and that "Price was probably the best FA SP'er to come along in a long time." I don't "blame him" for signing him. I preferred Cueto, but I'm not trying to pretend I'm smarter than DD, Ben, Theo or Dan D. Now, in hindsight, the signing does not look good so far. He did not reach expectation in his first regular season, and that's when the big value was supposed to materialize. We all expected lower value in years 5-7, but not #1, although I did warn of the poor past history of these mega signings. The next biggest deal was the Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje. Sure, Guerra's stock has fallen, so the "hindsight" part of viewing the trade looks a little better than if he was doing well, but at the risk of beating a dead horse repeatedlymy argument at the time of the deal was that we gave up a lot of young talent for a relief pitcher. Then, when you figure he is being paid similar to free agent closer money, we double-dipped on the "overpay." Yes, I get the argument that Margot was blocked by Beni, but many here felt Beni was rushed, and the trade for Kimbrel was not the only trade option. The hindsight view of the trade has to look worse than it did at the time. Kimbrel did not pitch like a top 3 closer this year. That's what we thought we were getting. That's what I thought we were getting and I still hated the trade. I'm not going to say, "See, I told you so!" because I thought he would be a top 3 closer this year. My beef was not about him projecting decline, but the decline certainly makes the deal look worse to me now. The third biggest deal was the Espi for Pomeranz trade. I hated the trade at the time, because I felt we should have looked to create a bigger package for a better starter. Pomeranz had pitched like an ace for just a half a season. We needed a starter. We were in a pennant race. I get why we did it. I'm not "blaming" DD for doing it, but I still think it was a gross overpay. I'm glad it was for 2 more years of team control with Pom, and I hope to hell he pitches well for us the next 2 years. I hate blaming a GM for an injury, but the fact is, so far, the Pom part of the trade has not lived up to expectations. The Ziegler deal was probably his distant fourth biggest deal. I liked it at the time, even though the "other Basabe" looked promising. Ziegler did great for us. The deal was good in foresight and good in hindsight. Overall, our roster looks strong. We have maybe 2-3 weak links, and the main core of our top prospects are still intact. This winter may be an even more defining time period for DD than last winter's glitzy bombshells.

I really liked the trade for Smith. DD wasn't the GM when we traded for Lee Smith.

Too bad there's no Andrew Miller in this winter's FA market.

We should have signed Miller to $40M/4.

You mean the last place Theo team of 2012? Last place. If the 2013 teams was Theo's then the 2016 is Ben's.

...and the guy he replaced turned a last place team into a World Series Champ. If the Price signings ends up like the Pablo signing, DD may end up with the same fate as Ben.

Well, they had the best 2nd half ERA, so it's hard to think our pitching wasn't looking good going into the playoffs. The Wright and Pomeranz injuries didn't help, and losing Carson Smith all year hurt, but Cleveland's pitching in juries were worse than ours. We acquired Ziegler and Pom. The Guardians acquired Miller.

I liked the Young signing and Ziegler trade. I was against everything else, but within the context of trying to win for Papi's last year, I can understand why he did what he did. The fact that Kimbrel and Price are under team control for 2 more years is another factor in DD's favor. I'm not happy with DD so far, but I am far from blaming him or suggesting he should be replaced. We still have a nice core of young players, another core of nice top prospect, and a few vets that are still within prime. Our oldest players on the roster right now are Young (33) and HanRam (32)!

Margot was a highly ranked prospect, and Guerra was ranked pretty highly by some, so Espi was not the only prospect traded by DD.