moonslav59

...yes, when they move him back to LF after the failure in center.

The point was about how much value a guy who has been DFA's twice this year has. Last year, you wanted JBJ. How about JBJ for Broxton and a prospect?

If MN losses every game, that means CLE wins those 6 games. They'd have to lose almost their other games. Our only hope is MN goes 6-24 and CLE goes 8-22, because we won't even win half our next games.

You won't even pay lip service to the decline of our SP'ing. It makes your claim less convincing when you use words like "only." SP'ing 2018-2019: 2018: 68-38 (56 No decisions) 13 games SP'er left with lead followed by BS/21 games SP'er left while behind but did not get the loss. 22 "Cheap wins" and 5 "Tough losses" 2019: 42-44 (46 No decisions) 14 games SP'er left with lead and BS/19 games SP'er left behind and team came back to tie or take lead 11 "Cheap wins" and 6 "Tough losses" The decline is MASSIVE! Ignoring it is worse. Want more? 2018: SP: 3.77 ERA/ .697 OPS Against RP: 3.72 ERA/ .700 OPS Against 2019: SP: 5.02/ .774 ERA UP 1.25 and OPS UP .077 RP: 4.16/ .722 ERA Up only 0.44 and OPS only up .022. Okay, the save% went from 70% to 51% in 49 games, but the QS% went down from 41% to 36% in every game (132).

I just did. See below your post. The 2018 top 5 guys were better in 2018.

This cracks me up!

At least! Plus, we remember the blown saves more easily than how many times the pen kept us in games we later won after the starter was bombed.

It blows my mind how many times our starter let up 5+ or 3+ in the first inning or two.

...and Andrew Cashner on the other side. We left $3-4M on the table.

Many teams have used the "opener a lot." I get why using the "opener" more often this year might affect the over all numbers to the worse, but pen numbers when trailing and tied do matter. Going by xFIP, the Yanks 2018 vs 2019, pitcher by pitcher: Pitcher 2018>or Chapman 2.58 > 2.85 Chapman (almost the same IP) Robertson 3.09> 4.17 Ottavino (DR with 13 more IP, so far) Betances 1.95> 3.83 Britton (DB with 14 more IP, so far) Green 3.19>4.25 Green (36 more IP in 2018) Holder 4.56 Warren 3.59 The Yankee pen was better last year.

I know sarcasm when I see it -usually - but Devers, Bogey, Vaz, Workman and maybe ERod are, IMO, clearly beyond reproach.

Going by my "eye test," the only rankings I might take issue with (beyond those with tiny sample sizes) would be Vaz over JD and Chavis slightly ahead of JBJ. ERod looks a little low, but this is per inning not a cumulative value list.

Here are the Sox WAR/Gm numbers: .045 Bogey .042 Devers .037 Betts .029 Vaz .025 JD .023 Beni .019 Holt (just 62 games) .013 Marco (just 38 games) .007 Chavis .007 JBJ .006 Moreland (just 66 games) WAR per IP .028 Workman (58 IP) .024 Sale .024 Taylor (38 IP) .022 Price .021 DHern (23 IP) .014 ERod .008 Porcello .007 Lakins (All others are at 0 or below)

It's the "Only difference" part of your argument that doesn't hold water. Our starters got way worse than our pen did from 2018 to 2019. Just because the Yanks starters outpaced us in starter ineptness doesn't make the pen the "only difference." Plus, their pen was way better than ours last year, in fact by more than this year, yet we won last year. That is clear proof it can't possibly be "just the pen." Our whole staff sucked. Both the Yanks and the Sox saw their pens and rotations get worse. The weird thing is the Yankee pen and rotation got worse by more than our pen and rotation, yet the standing more than flipped. There's room for many different theories on why we lost, and to me, the most likely winner is that it was a mix of several things with no one area being the clear culprit and certainly not the "only" or even more than 50% of the reason we suck this year. Our base running got worse. Our fielding got worse, despite big gains at 3B. Our offense stayed about the same while others improved dramatically. Our GM and manager did worse. Our focus and attention declined. Our pen sucked. Our starters sucked. We got snake bit a few times in close games. The umps sucked. The juiced ball helped others more than us. We sucked this year. There's enough blame to go around for just about everyone but maybe a handful of players.

He looked pretty good at 28.

Blame another loss on the pen... Err..... I mean.....

The magic has vanished.

These are the guys those who still think we have a chance must have a certain degree of faith in.

Exactamundo! Even my favorite stat to use, OPS, does not do that. (And I often cite PAs when listing our team's OPS numbers.)

The Yankee pen has been better than ours both years. Of course our crappy pen is a big reason for our standings shifts, but so has the SP'ing. You keep ragging on those that said our pen would be fine, although many felt we'd be adding to it this summer, but you rarely put equal or more blame on the starters, and that's who deserves most of the blame. It goes against your preseason position, so "whatever".

WAR per Game Pen 2018: Sox: 0.034 Yanks: 0.057 2019: Sox: 0.031 (just .003 worse or 9% worse) Yanks: 0.050 (.007 worse or 12% worse)

The Yankee and Sox starters have been way worse than 2018: Sox: 2018>2019 WAR 14.2>8.8 (31 less games played) ERA- 84>104 xFIP- 91>96 WHIP 1.21>1.37 (sick!) K/BB 3.48>3.03 Yanks: 2018>2019 WAR: 16.3>8.1 (31 fewer games) ERA- 94>104 xFIP- 89>96 WHIP 1.26>1.32 K/BB 2.79>2.68 WAR per Game: 2018: Sox: 0.088 Yanks: 0.100 2019 Sox: 0.067 Yanks: 0.062 The Yankee starters got worse by more than our, too.

Context may be needed as offense has exploded this year, but the 2018 Yankee pen still looks way better. Bell is right. (The Yankee pen has actually gotten worse by more than the Sox pen did!) 2018 to 2019 Comps: Sox Pen 2018>2019 (31 more games for 2018) WAR 4.8>4.0 ERA- 83>87 xFIP- 96>93 WHIP 1.29>1.34 K/BB 2.56>2.59 NYY Comp 2018>2019 (31 more games played in 2018) WAR 9.3>6.5 ERA- 78>87 xFIP- 76>87 WHIP 1.21>1.32 K/BB 3.3>2.7

Here's what the A's have left: 7 v KCR (3H/4A) 6 v TEX (3H/3A) 5 v LAA (3H/2A) 4@ HOU 4 @ SEA 3 v DET 1 v SFG The Rays: 7 v TOR (4H/3A) 4 v BOS 3@ HOU 3 v BAL 3 v CLE 3@ TEX 3@ LAA 2 v NYY 2@ LAD This is not an easy schedule, but who else could we pass? CLE: 7 v CWS (4H/3A) 6 v MN (3H/3A) 6 v DET (3H/3A) 3@ TBR 3@ LAA 3 v PHI 3@ WSH to end the season

When people cite BA, OPS, HRs, etc... do they always include games played or PAs? It's kind of understood that when there are great variances in games played of PAs when comparing two players, we factor in the sample sizes. We may think player A is better than B based on better numbers per game (or 162 game prorations), but player B is more valuable because he plays way more games. Why we wouldn't expect people to think the same way with WAR highlights the fact that many don't understand what WAR measures. Here's a great comp that Sox fans can be in tune with. Let's compare Porcello and Price with the Sox since 2016. We'd all say Price is the better pitcher and has been the better pitcher over those years, when he pitches. I would not disagree. We all know Price has been fragile, pitches less IP per start and has less starts than Porcello. We all probably agree that IP and GS'd are valuable, too. So, when we think of total value, we have to do sort of mental evaluation on how to weigh effectiveness vs longevity and durability. It's not easy to do in our heads. We each probably value one more than the other in differing degrees. ERA: 3.85 Price (85 ERA-) 4.28 Porcello (94 ERA-) xFIP 3.76 Price 4.32 Porcello WHIP 1.20 Price 1.23 Porcello K/BB 3.95 Porcello 3.92 Price W-L 46-24 Price 61-38 Porcello WAR (a cumulative metric) 10.7 Porcello 10.5 Price Why? Because of this.... GS 125 Porcello 97 Price IP 762 Porcello 586 Price The difference here is 28 starts and 176 IP. That's 28 more starts of 6.1 IP each over 4 years. That's about a full season more of pitching over 4 years. Surely that has major value. How much value is up for debate, and WAR has their formula for counting that. Maybe it is flawed. Maybe our own mental gymnastics are, too.