moonslav59

Yes. Best since Rice & Lynn.

It wouldn't make sense to chip in money on JBJ, since we can just non tender him, but I suppose, if someone were to offer us a very nice prospect, if we did, it might become worth it. I think we could get something for JD without pitching in much at all, but we likely would have to give a few million. Betts could bring back a very nice return. ERod, Workman and Barnes, too. I'm not saying I'm for a total fire sale, but there is some logic to doing it. With all the money saved, we could look to make a few strategic signings that can either bridge us to the next championship team or be part of it.

Can we take this to the playoff thread? Back to the Sox, if we trade JD, Betts and JBJ (if not non tendered), now high in the rankings might we jump? We are currently #22 with one ranking. What if we go farther and trade our 2 years guys- ERod, Workman & Barnes? We'd be left with Bogey, Devers, Vaz, Sale, Price, Eovaldi & DHern as the remaining core.

ThaaahhhhhhhHHHHHHHHhhhhhh! Yankeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzz Lose!

It doesn't. Even then.

The sell off was absolutely essential to the rebuild. I never said it was everything, but your trade-off and then jumping back into spending- like bringing Chapman back and signing 2 other top RPers was major. The sell-off was more than just about the prospects you got back, it was about freeing up budget space for future signings, in some cases. Yes, you had rebuilt the farm before that sell-off to respectability while being mediocre. You drafted well with mediocre and low picks (like Judge at 32), yet you say we cannot build up our farm while being mediocre. Am I correct on this? You don't see a disconnect there? Yes, our farm was good when we had our sell-offs, that's a good point. It's not good, now, but it has shown a jump in the most recent rankings, and who knows if we'll have some boost from low or mediocre picks from years past. The best part of the Sox 2012 sell-off was the budget space it freed up and allowed us to sign Vic & Napoli. In 2013, you just signed 2 guys to 7 year deals and still had some long term deals. I think you over-exaggerate our long term commitments and have totally written off Sale, Price and Eovaldi, which you have every right to do. The Yanks may have had a better farm back in 2013-2014, maybe not, but I happen to like this current set-up... 6 Bogey 5 Sale 3 Price 3 Eovaldi 3 Vaz better than your starting point... 7 Ellsbury 7 Tanaka 4 ARod 4 McCann 3 Teixeira 3 Sabathia 3 Beltran (Then, extended Gardner for 4 more years) Only Sale & Bogey are signed beyond 3 years starting in 2020. That's radically different from where the Yanks were.

Only in their pen.

Tell me what I got wrong in our "disconnect?" 1) You claim mediocrity makes it harder to rebuild (I agree). 2) You keep talking about the Yankee rebuild like it's the only way to rebuild (I disagree). 3) You keep saying the rebuild cannot be quick in these situations (You maybe be correct.) 4) You claimed the Yankee rebuild was 4 years long-hinting it might take us that long. I point out these facts: 1) The Yankee rebuild was not 4 years long. 2) The Yankees remained mediocre (84-87 wins) for the 4 years you cliam they were rebuilding- a very clear example of mediocrity. 3) The Yankees tried hard to win when they signed 5 guys to big deals- 4 were QO FAs and Tanaka got 7 years. (You denied Beltran was a QO FA and say Kurda should not count because he was a Yankee to begin with, like Porcello is right now going into a FA winter.) 4) The Yankees did draft and acquire a few prospects over the 4 years you speak of, but the bulk of the farm boost came from the fire sale that was at the very tail end of the 4 year rebuild you keep speaking of. Tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me where I misunderstand your positions stated. Look, I agree we need some sort of fire sale to quicken the rebuild. It is likely essential we need to trade JD, JBJ (if tradable) and Betts. If Price or Eovaldi show improvement, next year, we may have to try and trade them. I'm not sure about ERod or Barnes, but if we don't wait 3 years into a 4 year rebuild, like Cashman did, to have a fire sale, we can hasten the rebuild. We sold in 2012 and won in 2013. We sold in 2014 and began winning the division 3 times in a row less than 2 years later. Sell and then spend can bring quick results. Look closer at the Yankee model, and you'll see it was not really a 4 year rebuild. You were mediocre for 4 years, and you only turned it around after the fire sale. You can rebuild while mediocre. You can rebuild quickly and thoroughly.

In the winter of 14-15, the Yanks signed Miller to the biggest non closer deal in MLB history. They also signed Headley. $88M on 2 guys. One could view them as part of a rebuild, but it's not part of a don't be mediocre plan during the rebuild, you're trying to peddle on us. I may be mistaken, but I remember the bulk of the fire sale occured in 2016 and not over a 4 year period.

So, we should re-sign Porcello as part of a rebuild? Signing Kuroda and 4 other big names was an attempt to win not to rebuild. Why can't you just admit it.

I think he's stretched out a 1 year rebuild into 4 years and messed up some years and facts.

Yes, Beltran was a QO, and so was Kuroda, who you re-signed. That's 4 (Ellsbury & McCann). Tanaka was not a QO. That's 5 major signings. That's either rebuilding by free agency or it's not a rebuild like you have been expounding. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014-mlb-free-agent-tracker/team-19__status-1 You guys thought you could win after these massive signings. It was NOT the rebuild plan you are saying the Sox should do, right? So, cross off one year from your 4 year rebuild claim. Maybe cross off more from what you read next. You added the vast majority of prospects via trade in a very short window- not over 4 years. I'm not an expert on Yankee trades, but I recall their big fire sale was not spread over 4 or even 3 years. Almost all were within a year or 1.5 years. Right? And, stop with the "Is that what you want?" You know my position is to trade deadwood and free agents to be. This is not about us needing to have some sort of fire sale. We agree on that. Our argument is about quick rebuilds and turn arounds. The Sox did it twice: the Dodger dump which led to a ring the very next year and the 2014 pitcher dump which led to 3 division titles in a row less than 1.5 years later. You never responded to these examples.

Please. I've always respected you, buy you are losing my respect. 2013 was NOT ancillary pieces added. You guys signed 4 QO free agents plus Tanaka! Two were for 7 year contracts! At least admit your rebuild was just from 2014 to 2016. You've been saying mediocrity is not the way to rebuild, yet the model you keep using, your own team, did just that. It was not a 4 year rebuild. IMO, it was not even a 3 year rebuild; it was 1.5 to 2 years. I'm not arguing dismantling is not the key. I believe it is to some extent. You rebuilt when you sold your pieces for young players and prospects. That was not over a 4 year span. It was quick, and the turn around was quick. Our ring in 2013 was largely a result of the Dodger sell-off trade in August 2012. That was a less than one year rebuild and turn around. Our 3 division titles and ring in 2018 were helped by the pitching sell-off in 2014. We won 71 games in 2014, 78 in 2015 and then won the division 3 years in a row. That was a 1.5 year rebuild and complete turnaround. Quick turn arounds are doable, and I'm surprised you have forgotten such recent history already.

For argument's sake, let's say we trade JD and Betts and then sign Betts after 2020. Going into 2021, we'll be looking at this: Years remaining after 2020 6+ Betts 6 Bogey 4 Sale 2 Price 2 Eovaldi 1 Pedey 1 Vaz (w option for 1 more) ARBs for 2021 ERod 4 of 4 Barnes 3 of 3 Hembree 3 of 3 Beni 2 of 3 Devers 1 of 3

13-16 was 4 years. Not all our longer term contracts are sunken costs, although I know you see them that way. Sale may have surgery one year, but he can still give us a big boost in more years than not. Pedey has 2 years left. Price could be a big albatross, but it's 3 years not 4. Eovaldi has 3 not 4 left and may give us a healthy 2 years somewhere. Bogey's deal is a plus. JD will likely be gone- one way or another. Without JD, we have about $93M on the books for 2022 (not counting arbs). That's just 2 years from now. I'm hopeful, with some smart moves, we might be pretty good by 2021, but I do not think 2022 is a stretch. You keep using the Yankees rebuild model, like it is the only one, but I'll play along. One, you guys never sucked from 2013-2016, yet you keep saying mediocrity is a killer. You guys rebuilt while be mediocre for 4 years (84-87 wins all 4 years), so you're wrong there right off the bat. Two, in 2013, you had ARod on the books for 5 more years. Our longest is Bogey. You had CC & Tex or 4 years. We have Sale for 5 & Eovaldi for 3. After 2013, you didn't go into rebuild mode, you signed Tanaka & Ellsbury for 7 year deals along with McCann for 4 years and Beltran for 2. Please don't make it sound like you guys were "rebuilding" for 4 years. You signed 4 QO FAs that winter! You are making me literally LOL. You guys even extended Gardner for 4 years soon afterwards. Your rebuild did not start after 2013. So, what did you guys do the next winter? Signed Headley and Miller to 4 year deals. Your rebuild did not start after 2014. Come on! You guys spent over $217M in 2015 and 2016. You guys rebuilt be having a fire sale and spending big. It didn't take you 4 years to rebuild. It took you 2-3 years to figure out you needed to sell and 1-2 years to rebuild. Plus, you haven't made it back to the top just yet.

This game sucks. I'm going back to watching my Domers struggle with USC.

I'm sure you hope it won't be quick, but when you have an owner willing to spend like ours does, I'm thinking it might be a lot quicker than you think. I can certainly see Betts and JD trades. I could see us trying to re-sign Betts, but who knows. Trading players that are FAs after 2021 (namely ERod & Workman) makes sense, too, unless we extend them or plan to. Beni has 3 years left, but I like him the least out of JD, Betts & ERod. I think you might be surprised how quickly we are back to being highly competitive, but the next GM will have to do a lot of things just right. I will also add that teams have been able to rebuild without massive fire sales.

I'm just hoping the rebuild is quick. I realize the best chance to make it quick is to deal anyone of value that is not part of the longer term plan, but it's hard to think of such a radical clean out of players I've come to enjoy watching.

How is he any different from Garrett Richards?

Last off season, Anibal Sanchez, who has not pitched over 157 IP in 5 seasons, signed for $19M/2. Yes, he was coming off a 3.0 bWAR season, but his previous 3 seasons totaled -1.6 combined. His 4 year bWAR was 1.4. 30 year old, Garrett Richards, yes, the guy who pitched under 140 IP total in his 3 previous seasons (1.5 bWAR), signed for $15.5M/2. Be honest, harmony, do you really think Eovaldi would get just $1.5M/1 or even $5M/1 as a FA this winter?

Last season, Eovaldi signed a $17M x 4 year deal after posting a 2.9 fWAR over the previous 3 seasons combined. He was about to turn 29 in February. You really think 1 more injury year brings his value down to $1.5M/1?

My guess is, he's get $25M/3, $18M/2 or $10M/1 with incentives.

If history has anything to do with it, a lot more than you and I think he'd get. GMs have been known to pay a lot for pitchers with long history of injury or low recent WAR totals. For God's sake, DD just signed a guy to 4 years at $17M a year. Word was, that guy had high interest from other teams, including the well-respected management team of the Astros.

He deserves that prize, and one reason he won that price was that he didn't try to "have it both ways." He deliberately mortgaged the farm for those 3 playoff appearances. The run was great. It was fantastic. I'm thankful to DD for the ride. It's time, now, to pay the price, which I'm fine with. I won't sugar coat it. I won't deny it. I won't enjoy it. I hope it will be short-lived. DD is not the right GM for what comes next and for what needs to be done going forward. I'm thankful to Henry for recognizing that and not waiting too long to make the needed change at the top. I know I may come across like I have hard feelings towards DD, and that I am bashing him, but I honestly don't feel that way. I was fine with the trade-off he made when he did it. I may think he went a bit too far, but nobody agrees with everything anybody else does.

I agree with Nick's post for the most part, but it's not like DD didn't know about injury issues with the newly extended Sale, the recently signed Eovaldi, and the aging vet Price. I don't blame DD for 2019. I thought we'd win over 100 games. He brought us 3 straight division titles and a ring. That's A-okay in my book. The state of our farm and future is the only real criticism I have on DD. Theo got us rings and left the farm in pretty good shape. Ben got us a ring and left the farm in great shape. DD is the only one who didn't "have it both ways."