moonslav59

He was one of the best before the trade. Had we gotten him for Aldo, you and I would have been dancing in the streets. Then, crying in our beer and wondering why we didn't get a guy like Schwarber.

He's on pause, to me. I'm surprised his value has stayed the same on BTV, but maybe they agree with you 100%. Wait, are you really the guy who runs BTV? Fess up!

Most of us who did not want Kimbrel was because we thought we'd have to give up too much to get him, IMO. My point was more about what a crapshoot it is when you trade for 2 months of any RP'er. To roast a GM for getting that wrong or not trying harder to get better than what he did is a bit off the mark, to me. That's not defending Bloom. It's just the way it is with any GM trying to catch lightening in a bottle.

Kike in CF, yes, but he was forced to play 2B, too much. That's it. Nobody else is a very good fielder- okay maybe Verdugo. Some may be slightly above average, but no. You can't make players into great fielders overnight. It's not easy coaching focus and confidence, either, though that's not impossible. Here are the UZR/150 numbers of our players before 2021 (2016-2020): 20.9 Verdugo LF 9.9 Kik CF 5.7 Arroyo 2B 5.6 Schwarber LF 1.1 Renfroe LF 0.8 Verdugo RF 0.6 Verdugo CF -0.1 Bogey SS -0.1 Renfroe RF -2.1 Dalbec 1B -3.8 Devers 3B -6.5 JD M RF -7.6 Kike 2B -9.8 Santana CF -14.4 JD RF -23.0 Arauz 2B If you look at what we had coming in, I'm not sure how much coaching could have or did make a difference. The 2021 numbers (200+ Innings at a position) 18.7 JD M LF 11.7 Kike CF 9.1 Arroyo 2B 1.6 Renfroe RF 0.6 Bogey SS 0.6 Verdugo LF 0.0 Devers 3B -2.8 Kike 2B -4.9 Dalbec 1B -7.7 Verdugo CF All but Verdugo & Dalbec, with a small 2020 sample size, apparently improved their defense, this year. Surprise, surprise. And we still sucked on D.

He needs to keep his pitch count low and do well. That might be a lot to ask, but a 5 inning 1 run game will likely not cut it.

I'm not a playoffs are a crapshoot guy. I don't think we can beat TBR or HOU in a playoff series, but I'd like to see us try. The only hope I have is that baseball has ebbs and flows. I still think this team is good enough to muster up another hot streak, and that the grit we showed earlier in the year was not a mirage.

Sox AL Defensive Rankings: 14th Errors (81) 11th fangraphs rating (-2.2) 10th in DRS (-7) I still don't know how UZR/150 places the Sox as third best. I've lost faith in their system. To me, this says it all: .323 BAbip Against (The next teams are .309, .305, .303 then the rest are bunched between .273 and .290.) It's not because our pitchers get hit hard the most, either. We are 5th best in Hit Hard % at 30.8-much closer to 1st than 10th, We are also 4tth in GB%. Our D is awful- no if, ands or buts.

I'm not sure coaching could fix the sloppy play. You can focus and D all you want, but when you have clowns as defenders, their big feet and make-up get in the way of making plays. We can't even make routine plays anymore, let along a good one. Great one, Fuggheagaboutit!

A point needs to be made that the odds of trading for 2 decent RP'ers that both do very well are not very high. The best one traded has sucked. Some that looked as bad as Robles and Davis have done ok.

Maybe just knowing they were going to Florida made them all just give up on any precautions. Sarcasm alert

Well worded.

I don't think Henry is shocked at this year's team missing out on the playoffs or just barely squeaking in. You think greatness was expected this quickly? Just because the team teased everybody over 100 games, doesn't change the fact that Henry and Bloom knew this was not the year to go all in. The team is proving it, now.

Yes, if they can trade him. Not so sure, if not. If we can't trade him at $7M, that means GMs don't value him much higher than that... or they can't afford even that amount. If there is a floor on team budgets enacted, then maybe some teams would want him more.

Sure, jabroni fans noticed him because of his name, but without the high rankings and ratings, he would not have been talked about all that much. There are a lot of colorful names of minor leaguers never discussed.

Here's a few examples I found: Chris Sale 2017- not even his best year .603 OPS against in 851 PAs 73 runs allowed in 32 starts (2.90 ERA) The AL, as a whole, hit .753, so basically, Sale hit .903 over 851 PAs. (.752 + .150- his differential over the league average.) Maybe that's not as good as a few top hitters that year, but the extra 150-200 PAs is huge! He has mulitple seasons just like this. .567 in 685 PAs against in '14 .649 in 854 in '15 .651 in 907 in '16 907!!!! .532 in 617 in '18 That's 200 less than the league OPS! Now, I'll cherry pick one: Pedro .536 in 835 PAs in '99 (250 less than the league OPS of .786!) .473 in 817 PAs in '00 (319 less than the .792 OPS!) Add the differential to the OPS and it's like Pedro hit... 1.036 in 1999 with about 200 more PAs than the average everyday starter. 1.111 in 2000 Yes, all bunched in 27-33 games, but still highly valuable.

I agree- maybe not exactly, but basically to improve the farm system and also how to spot talent on other teams and in their farm system and to know when the right time is to trade a successful vet about to seriously decline at any moment.

I didn't say I would trade Betts or Devers for Sale, even if they had equal contracts. The argument about spread out PAs has merit, but to me, not much. Every PAs counts. If we have a solid rotation, with every starter facing 750-850 batters, that trumps 5 solid hitters getting 625-700 PAs.

Only to trade him. Actually, he'd have been traded last winter or before.

He was ranked pretty highly, before the trade. Some think his name helped, but I'm not so sure that moved the needle all that much.

I'm not saying Bloom made the right call.I actually came out and said, until we know what was asked in return, how can we blame him (or praise him implied)? Why don't you come out and say what specifically Bloom should have done, and name names. Go ahead and even use hindsight to selectively choose the players who have done well after the trade. Even then, you can't know if it would have made a significant difference. Then, is making the WC game vs losing in the next round significant and worth giving some of the future away? Honestly, I don't know. Yes, I defend Bloom more than I criticize him. I like his overall philosophy and the direction the team is going. Does that outweigh a few mistakes here and there? Hell, yes, IMO! It seems to me, the it's the Bloom bashers who can't have a reasonable conversation. If we can't agree with you on winning now is always the most important thing, we're not being "reasonable." Sure, I'll agree it's Bloom's fault were not as good as we could have been this year, but I also believe we have been better than we were expected to be and have clearly improved our future outlook, and to me that matters more. I'm not sure why that position is unreasonable. Look, I made a list of all the mistakes Bloom has made. I'm one of his biggest defenders, and I don't see anyone saying he does no wrong. I know you have praised Bloom for many many things and like his overall approach (I think, right?) In all honesty, I do think Bloom could have and should have made a slightly bigger play at the deadline for pitching. One that would not have hurt any more than losing Aldo Ramirez did to help an offense that was not our major need area. I get that. Maybe I should have said it just like that a few times. However, I don't know what pitchers teams were offering and what they wanted, and then there is the crapshoot aspect of trading for RP'ers (like Gage or Kimbrel). Sometimes getting some RP'erslike Robles and Davis actually works out. I trusted Bloom knew how to spot gems in the rough. I still think he's pretty good at it, but he missed on these two- and missed badly. Not to lessen what Bloom did wrong, but even getting 2 RP'ers that went on to do great might not have made much of a difference. That's not sugar coating what has happened to this team. This sucks. Even the people who though Bloom failed miserably at the deadline never foresaw this. Hell, we're still in the lead for the WC slot with an easy ending to our schedule. This COVID s*** has now turned those hopes into rolling the dice. I don't mean to get testy with you, MVP. I respect the hell out of you as a poster, and you know a lot more than I do about a lot of things with this team and baseball, in general. I do see very reasonable conversations, except on game threads.

I meant hindsight by finding some RP'ers that were traded for little to moderate return and are doing well since the trade. That is what MVP is blaming Bloom on not doing.

Not me. 1. Our system churns out everyday players not pitching 2. FA pitchers are overpaid by more than everyday players 3. Every year, many good starting pitchers have more PAs against than any batter in the history of MLB. 4. Moncada for Sale

One for one trades per BTV: Devers (77.2) 79.4 Luis Castillo 77.1 Lucas Giolito 72.7 Zach Wheeler 71.2 Aaron Nola Bogey (52.4 seems wrong, if he opts out) 51.1 Julio Urias 51.0 S McClanahan 50.2 Dylan Cease 49.6 Tyler Mahle 47.9 Max Fried 43.0 Logan Gilbert 42.9 Jose Berrios Say Bogey is worth 22-25: 25.6 Jose Urquidy 25.3 Dane Dunning 25.2 Logan Webb 24.6 Ole Frankie Montas 23.1 Jesus Luzardo 22.6 Kyle Muller 22.1 Cristian Javier 21.9 Patrick Sandoval Downs (20, also seems high) 23.2 Ryan Wathers 22.2 JT Brubaker Vaz (0- dropped from 20 in April to 11 in June to 0, now) A bag of used balls

I'm not even sure it's worth going over everybody one-by-one. I'd need a page on each! We need some serious staff improvement, and to me, we could help that along, immensely, by greatly improving the defense. I know it looks hard replacing Vaz and maybe Bogey, or moving Bogey and Devers, but that sure simplifies greatly, and I don't use the word greatly lightly, improving the pitching before even spending a dime.

Trying to emulate the hot team usually doesn't work, but if anyone knows the ins and out on how Tampa does it, it's Bloom. It will take time to build a system like theirs, and some insightful posters have pointed out there have not been all that many changes made to key positions in the organization. If we can just approach the Rays with their abilities to spot and develop talent- not just in the farm system, we should able to overtake them by bashing them with key FA signings. How long will it take? Someone told me, recently how "the cliff" was only a 60 game season long, but maybe it's actually longer when looking where we are right at this instant.