moonslav59

I'm not claiming he made a 1.50 difference, but you don't answer my questions. I'll cut it down to one. Does a catcher's value go beyond just what is captured by b or f WAR?

His performance was amazingly impressive, and it was a step up from his regular season impressive numbers. Was it a skill? Honestly, I don't know. It can't be proved- one way or the other, and the fact that his numbers exist, doesn't, by itself, prove clutch as a skill exists, no matter what iortiz thinks or says. If you took Schillings regular season numbers and fed them into a computer program that randomly creates hundreds of 133 IP sample sizes, you'd find they all don't come out exactly like his regular season ERA. A few would look just like his actual playoff numbers, a few would look worse and most would be similar. It's hard to know, if this is just one of those sample sizes that came out nicely for him (and the Sox.) Certainly, nobody can prove it's not just a random occurrence.

We've sold during other losing seasons, too. There's always some rumblings, but I'm talking about major issues from fans and the media. The massive fire sale of 2014 was a different story. We had just won a ring the previous year.

Getting pitchers- young and old- to realize their maximum potential is something losing and winning teams covet. Why did Leon stay on the Sox for 5 seasons? Why did he play more than most back-ups, despite hitting worse than just about all back-up catchers? Do you really think catchers make very little difference in hos a pitcher performs, especially those pitchers who rarely shake of pitch calls?

Most "casual fans" don't get all worked up over trades, anyway, unless we are in a pennant race and trade our ace away.. Were people upset we traded Workman and Hembree for Pivetta and Potts? Maybe a few, but I doubt a majority. I do recall some not liking the Moreland trade, but most knowledgeable fans at least understood why it was done.

Another thing is he was likely facing better hitting in the playoffs. It's hard to imagine a pitcher of his skill, who rose to the occasion, under great pressure, to even make it to MLB. Then, his numbers show he does better with RISP and Late & Close during the season, so there's no indication he wilts under pressure, there. Then, suddenly, just because it's the playoffs, and his scattered numbers fall way short of his norm, we are supposed to think it HAS TO BE because it's the playoffs. Players slump and rise, all the time. Nobody knows why. If they did, they could probably make a ton of money. Yet, when a player slumps or does great in the playoffs, we are magically able to know FOR SURE, why it happened. I've never heard a logical response to this point. It's impossible to know for sure, unless it's some kind of injury. It's also impossible to prove it can't be a choke or clutch thing. Is it possible a player might get enormous butterflies under the intense pressure of the playoffs and not be able to overcome it? Of course. I can't prove it doesn't happen.

I think they wanted to be respectable and appear to be trying to contend, but you are right. If Ottavino helps us be competitive at the deadline, it goes counter to the idea that Bloom was planning or or hoping we could be legitimate sellers at the deadline.

We did okay trading Workman and Hembree. Even if all our FAs to be were doing worse- not likely- we probably could have gotten something useful for 2-3 of them. We might have also looked at JD, Bogey, Vaz and Kike- players with just 1 more year of control. Somebody was bound to be doing well.

True, but would fans really have wanted us to trade prospects to get us to .500 by September? I think they'd understand why they traded vets for prospects, even if it meant ending up even worse by year's end. Most, anyway.

You don't think they'd start a .650 catcher, if they think he would help more than a .498 one that is working well with young pitchers.

I seriously doubt he made a 1.50 difference, either, even with the one or two guys who had those disparities. Certainly other factors are involved, but when just about every pitcher over the 5 years Leon was here did better with him, especially the ones with significant sample sizes with more than just him, I have to think he made some sort of positive impact, or else he would not have played as much as he did. He hit way worse than other catchers on those teams. His framing and bad-pitch-blocking skills were not greater or much greater than the others. His throwing out base stealers (what are those, these days?) were also not that much better, if at all better. Am I the only one that thinks the massive amount of pitchers do better or much better with him might have something to do with things not captured by WAR? I can't believe it's all just a statistical random occurrence with just about every single pitcher? It would be like having 20 Kershaw's all on one team and all pitching 1.50 over their seasonal ERA in the playoffs, and then the same thing with Vaz vs other catchers (bad way) and VTek with other catchers (good way). I'm fine with people not believing catchers make big differences, and personally, I don't attribute all of the variance to just Leon, but I think the overwhelming amount of sample size, big, medium and small show pitchers do better or worse with certain catchers means something substantial.

I don't think the "goal" was to me uncompetitive, but they probably thought we would not be this good (and maybe they were right.) Had we sucked earlier, it would have made preparing for 2022 and beyond easier and more palatable to fans and the media. We could have gotten better prospects for ERod, Eovaldi, Ottavino and maybe even Vaz or Bogey (1 more year left) than we did in 2020 for Workman, Hembree, Moreland, Pillar and Osich. As it was, more people bitched about us not being buyers at the deadline than understood the longer term priority has been ahead of 2021's.

fWAR does not factor in pitchers having 0.50 to 1.50 better ERAs with Leon. That's why Leon stuck around for so long despite horrific offense. He played 5 seasons with the Sox-playing in 65-89 games in 4 of them! He's also played in 63 games for the Marlins, this year, despite a sub .500 OPS.

Partially, yes. It's hard to think he's totally upset he built a team that won more than expected. Certainly, we'd be looking a lot better for 2022 and beyond had we not done as well and were sellers at the deadline- like we were in 2020.

40 or 42 games remaining for the 3 teams tied for the 2 wild card slots: NYY, OAK & BOS. SEA & TOR are 4 back and still in it, for now. Remaining Games: BOS 7 vs TBR 6 v BAL 6 v CLE 4 v NYY 3 v TEX 3 v MIN 3 @CWS 3 @ SEA 3 @ WSH 2 v NYM NYY 7 v TOR 6 v BAL 4 v BOS 4 v MIN 4 @ OAK 3 @ LAA 3 @ NYM 3 v CLE 3 v TEX 3 v TBR 2 @ ATL OAK 9 v SEA 6 v HOU 5 v CWS 4 NYY 3 v SFG 3 @ DET 3 @ TOR 3 v TEX 3 @ KCR 3 @ LAA

I have never doubted Vaz's physical catching skills. I also have never claimed that the full advantage pitchers showed with Vaz could not have been influenced by other factors. They held onto Leon for a very long time for reasons I have to think are related to how much pitchers loved him catching their games. I don't know why they finally let him go. Maybe 2 straight seasons of sub .550 hitting was the breaking point. To me, if he really meant a 1.00 to 1.50 boost to a pitcher's ERA, batting .250 OPS would still make him a plus. BTW, Leon played a lot with MIA, this year despite an OPS below .500!

Your whole argument is based on speculation on a scattered amount of stats that total 189 innings. By the way, it’s not a debate if you never ever answer questions the other side asks.

I have 10 Kershaw that do way better with anyone not named Vaz or Swihart. It’s not hard to imagine pitchers doing better with JBJ in CF or Cabrera at SS, why would the catching position not be at least as important to a pitcher than SS and CF? I mean, they do a lot more than just field hit balls.

Shoulda traded them all for deadline help. It’s so obvious we were just one piece or two away from greatness in October!

Oakland is losing, again. This time 8-0. If they lose, it’s a 3-way tied for the two WC slots with us down one in the loss column to both and .001 behind in win%.

Actually, it’s GB that matters not winning %, so we’d have a play in game with NYY.

Just 5 games of 7 innings of shutout ball and his 4.19 ERA goes to 3.54, and you’ll find some other guy to call a choke. This is just one example that shows just how fickle even a 189 IP sample size is. Now, he ain’t gonna do that, but the point still stands. 5 nice games more and nobody mentions Kershaw and choke ever again. 5 games is all.now, imagine 7 or 8...

Well, today was about as bad as could be. We were out pitched, hit and defended. I still think the schedule will help us beat out the A’s, but we can’t let losing these games go into another free fall. It could all start with a win tomorrow, but today still sucked, badly,

This game thread crap is for the birds. I’m out of these for a while. Maybe a long long while. Talk among yourselves. Lol

This walking the ninth hitter is killing me.