moonslav59

Except the oh for 4 on 7+ year deals- the kinds everyone wanted for Betts & Bogey. If you can pinpoint one thing that led to this down time- post Theo, it might not be the albatross contracts of Crawford, Pablito, HRam, Price and Sale, but rather the lack of stars produced by the farm. Correct me, if I'm wrong but the most recent star our farm has produced was Devers, signed in 2013 under Ben. Bogey, Betts and Lester were from the Theo era. So, let's blame the current GM for not extending these stars and not the problem of us not adding a stud prospect in 10 years. Yeah, that makes total sense. (not you, Bell.) Instead, let's poo-poo the attempt at rebuilding the farm.

Misplaced blame galore. No doubt, Bloom made several mistakes, a few of them big ones. It all comes down to what we expected 3 years ago. You expected a miracle and are sorely disappointed one did not happen. You can ignore all the factors that led us to thin place in Sox history all you want, but they don't go away. Sure, we can dream about not making the Renfroe trade and maybe a few other moves where Bloom spent $10M or less and horrors of horrors, they guys did not play like all stars. Man he sucks! What's left to build around? A farm. That's where all these guys like Betts, Bogey, Devers and Lester came from. Whose fault is it the only guy we can build around, now, is Houck? Blooms? Maybe his biggest 3 failures are Renfroe, Richards at $10M and Perez at $7M. Sure blame that over $217M Price, $145M Sale and the farm that gave us Houck in 5 years. Makes total sense. There is plenty of blame to go around, if you want to wallow in it. Carry on: you do it well.

Yes, interesting points. Inflation would adjust some of those contracts higher, but still... Also, Lester's 5 year deal was the longest given to a homegrown pitcher. The Manny deal was not under JH, so the deals listed by length are... 8 Pedroia 7 Price, AGon, Crawford How many of these were resounding successes? 6 Story, Dice K, Pedroia It looks like the long part of "large and long" is what we might be shying away from, of late.

It's interesting to note that 4 of our top 8 contracts were extensions and 5 of our top 7 extensions were non homegrown players. How many of these top signings were a clear success or even a partial one? $217M/7 Price Partial, at best $160M/8 Manny Clear Success, despite the bad ending $154M/7 AGon Partial, but did not really do great over the 7 years (118 OPS+). $145M/5 Sale Disaster $142M/7 Crawford Disaster $140M/6 Story TBD $120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3) Clear Success $110M/5 JD Clear Success, despite a couple down times. $110M/8 Pedroia Disaster due to injury $95M/5 Pablo Disaster $90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee) TBD $88M/4 HRam Disaster $83M/4 Porcello Partial $83M/5 Lackey Good, despite 2 iffy seasons $73M/4 Castillo Disaster $70M/5 JD Drew Clear $68M/4 Eovaldi Clear $68M/4 Beckett Clear $52M/4 Papi Clear $52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee) Partial, at best $41M/4 Youkilis One great yr/one good/2 bad $41M/6 Pedroia Clear $40M/4 Renteria Disaster $40M/4 VTek Clear $36M/4 Lugo Partial, at best $31M/4 Damon Clear $30M/4 Buchholz Partial, at best $30M/5 Lester Clear $26M/4 Offerman Id say no $26M/4 Foulke One key year- partial I count about... 9-10 successes 9-10 partial successes 2 TBD 8 Bad to disasters Basically 19-8- about a 70% success rate, but the top 5 are about 50-50.

Largest Contracts in Sox History (4 Years of More Only Red= Extension $217M/7 Price $160M/8 Manny $154M/7 AGon $145M/5 Sale $142M/7 Crawford $140M/6 Story $120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3) $110M/5 JD $110M/8 Pedroia $95M/5 Pablo $90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee) $88M/4 HRam $83M/4 Porcello $83M/5 Lackey $73M/4 Castillo $70M/5 JD Drew $68M/4 Eovaldi $68M/4 Beckett $52M/4 Papi $52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee) $41M/4 Youkilis $41M/6 Pedroia $40M/4 Renteria $40M/4 VTek $36M/4 Lugo $31M/4 Damon $30M/4 Buchholz $30M/5 Lester $26M/4 Offerman $26M/4 Foulke $19M/4 Whitlock (We paid $63M+ to sign Moncada)

I read what you said. I think we are building to become a better team than the Yanks. You don't. Fine. I'm not sure it works, but I prefer this approach than overspending on aging stars like Judge. The thing is Judge will not keep them the same. He will decline while his hit on the fixed budget will not.

Can you imagine if we repeat the Betts and Price deal with a similar Devers and Sale deal. We had fun with the "half Price" aspect of the deal, now, we could just say half-price Sale.

I'm just saying I'm glad they signed him. I said it on the Yankee thread before and after the signing. I'll take our last 20 years over the Yankees. They have had some perks, but give me 4 rings. Honestly, I'd take 4 rings and 16 last place finishes over what the Yanks have done the last 20 years. I'm not condemning them. I'm praising us. We were in trouble before the Dodgers bailed us out with the Crawford salary dump. We were in trouble once the Price decline was upon us and budget woes created by 2019. Why do we keep thinking the solution is the same as what got us into trouble in the first place? I'm not saying the Price signing wasn't worth it. We won a ring, so it's hard to say it was, for sure, but I think that contract, along with CC's and maybe a few others- like Sale, Pablo, HRam... has forced JH to rethink that method of building winners. It might not be a bad idea. MIGHT!

Let's say no bad blood ever happened between DD and Sox management, and he was kept as our GM, but told to cut the 2020 budget to the same level Bloom did. No mandate to trade Betts or Price, but a firm line on the budget. Then, for 2021, he's given about $40M to spend but no large and long deals allowed. He's give $60M for 2022, but again nothing larger or longer than the Story deal. Do we have a ring in 2020, 2021 or 2022? Do we have more wins? Do we have a farm anywhere near what we have, now? I'm wondering, if he might have quit with the demands Bloom was given.

I don't believe we win a ring in 2023, even if we add Kluber, Andrus, Fulmer and trade for Luzardo. I'm not a playoff is a crapshoot type of guy. I think we'd make the playoffs with that team. I think, as is, we are better than most here seem to think we will be, but we have a ways to go. I was hoping this was the winter we made the big step, but it looks like they felt more building up was needed before the big "splurge." I can wait. I'd like to see us win it all in 2023 just like everyone else, but I do think the path to sustained winning is making your farm and foundation strong and deep, then use free agency to fill just one or two gaps, here and there. Maybe being so close to the Astros has clouded my judgement, but the last two rings have gone to teams that seem to have the same philosophy we are trying to establish. I'm not a " believer" in the sense that I am sure we will pull it off, but I admire the effort and think it's a good plan. Ultimately, it will come down to how well these farm additions do. We thought Ben's farm was great, and it turned out trading them was better than keeping them, as many never cam close to what their rankings promised. Keeping all of them would not have won us a ring, IMO, but that does not mean we should trade this set in for a quick 3 year window, if we are lucky..

Verdugo looked pretty good, when we traded for him. Downs was a consensus top 100 prospect. The trade did not work out as we wished. I'm okay with blaming B loom for the return not for the trade, and I think including Price is often ignored or not factored in when people look at what we got. Reports show n othing much better was an option, so I'm done getting upset on that aspect. I wish we'd kept Betts, but having that much money for 10 years does not mean all is lost. I'm over Betts. I'm more pissed about Lester, and that was years ago. I'm not pissed over Bogey, either. Like Betts, I wish we still had him. I wished we'd locked him up long ago. I would not have paid what the Padres paid him. I think $200M/8 was too much for someone who does not play SS well and did not want to be moved off SS. They messed up the messaging, but I'm not convinced extending him was a lock good move. I doubt we ever could have gotten BorA$$ to accept $160M/6, but if the proves to be the case, I'll agree that was a big mistake, but I seriously doubt that- happened. Knowing BorA$$, he always wanted more. It sucks watching out beloved players go, but winning wiped that slate clean, time after time in the past. This team has seen a lot of stars come and go, and many times it wasn't pretty. Much can be pinned on management and their willingness to throw players, managers and whoever under the bus, but many were smart business moves and the next cycle of winning made everyone seem okay with the rollercoaster ride. We've been on a downturn for a long time and that was before losing Bogey, but I can see a brighter future. I can see many here don't care or don't want to see anything positive, right now. It's a choice. The farm is much better, whether most Sox fans believe it or care about it. I do. The 40 man roster depth is light years better than it was after 2019. We've sucked 2 of the last 3 years, so many Sox fans don't believe it or care about that. I do. The budget is real and has been for the 20 years JH has been in charge. We don't go over the tax line more than 2 years in a row- ever. We reset often, and sometimes stay under for 2-3 years, at a time. It's the way it is- like it or not. I wish we spent more, but we dow when it really is needed, and we've cycled into WS rings every 3-5 years since JH took over. Many Sox fans don't like this and going on 5 years without a ring is not fun for any of us. Most fans could care less about the budget or tax line. I do, because it matters. We can bang our heads on the wall and scream for the rich guy to spend more, but that's not me. He will, or he won't. I think he will when the foundation is set up to a point were a window of winnings looks probably not just possible. I think JH learned from the DD era and is hoping to build a window longer than 3 years. I could be wrong, but I'm choosing optimism over doom & gloom.

...and by preserving the farm growth and not extending players to contracts with the majority of their term post prime. Quick, who was the last guy we signed or extended, where most years were past 31 or 32 years old? Next question, look back at all the times we did extend players to mostly post prime years, and tell me how many worked out well. It's not a dumb strategy to avoid these types of contracts. How many of these types of large AND long contracts have these teams signed? Astros Braves What's wrong with modeling our philosophy on what these two teams do, and then when the time is right, spend even more than they do?

I'm glad they crippled their budget for years to come while not getting one bit better. We can keep pretending JH can, should and will spend more and more, and believe it or not, Yankee fans are pissed they don't spend more, too, but paying B ogey $280M would have been the wrong thing to do. We heard all this same stuff after Lester's fiasco, and then POW! We sign Price and trade for Sale, and bam. To think JH will never do that again, needs some proof. Maybe he won't ever go that large and long, again, but building a strong farm and paying several players big money, mostly on shorter deals, does have a record of working. If the Astros can do it that way, maybe we can, too. They didn't buckle under and pay Springer, Cole, Correa and others. They did not get to where they are now, overnight. It takes patience- something severely lacking in today's society.

The Sox have done this, and have also spent more money than 2 out of three teams, even after the budget cuts following 2019. You wanted more. To me, that's feeling entitled. I'm optimistic about our future because the farm is vastly improved and our budget is in better shape than it was in 2019. I think JH will spend big again, when the time is right. Those who felt all was well in 2019 were kidding themselves. Our future looks brighter not than then, and to me, it's not even close. Even teams that so pay high prices for the very best players need a foundation to win consistently. We lost that by 2019. We're trying to get that back, and it takes time. Nobody has any patience, anymore. They want the best, and they want it now. If they don't get it- thrown blame and anger about. You can choose pessimism and doom & gloom outlooks. Not me.

I don't feel the need to identify who is to blame when things don't go the way I want them to. You want my take on who or what to blame? It's not going to be the guy they hired to trade Betts and Price and operate under a strict budget while getting no help but Houck from the farm. The guy told not to trade any top prospects and build up the farm over the ML team. Nope. Not him. Feel free to blame Bloom, if you wish. If I had to blame anyone or anything, I'd blame the greed of the filthy rich and the filthy rich owners of other teams that are having fun playing with their new shiny toy by buying up the best players at absurd prices. GREED. I might blame JH's greed for not wanting to sacrifice some of his profits to spend like the other free-spending owners, but not in the same way some here seem to be doing- hoping he sells the team. Blaming JH is like blaming capitalism for the Sox predicament. No going to do it. Sorry. Feel free to blame the fall guy.

I wanted to give Betts $400M/14, so I'm not sure where you think I'm coming from. On winning 3 WS, how? You think JH magically decides to spend way more had we extended Betts? Had we paid Betts and kept Price, we'd sign no other FAs for 2 years and then spend maybe $20M before 2022. We'd still be saying good bye to Bogey, JD and others- with or without Bloom.

I guess if you don't count 2020, then losing 60 games of Betts was worth nothing. We'd be WS champs had we gotten Graterol or Wil Myers.

Remaining Unsigned Free Agents at positions we need or could upgrade: Starting Pitchers Chris Archer (34) Kohei Arihara (30) Dylan Bundy (30) Johnny Cueto (37) Zach Davies (30) Danny Duffy (34) Nathan Eovaldi (33) Chi Chi Gonzalez (31) Zack Greinke (39) Rich Hill (43) Drew Hutchison (32) Dallas Keuchel (35) Corey Kluber (37) Chad Kuhl (30) Wade Miley (36) Mike Minor (35) Michael Pineda (34) Joe Ross (30) Aaron Sanchez (30) Anibal Sanchez (39) Michael Wacha (31) Shortstops Elvis Andrus (34) Alcides Escobar (36) Marwin Gonzalez (34) Didi Gregorius (33) Jose Iglesias (33) Andrelton Simmons (33) Dee Strange-Gordon (35) Jonathan Villar (32) Second Basemen (Story to SS) Hanser Alberto (30) Robinson Cano (40) Harold Castro (29) Willi Castro (26) Yu Chang (27) Josh Harrison (35) Cesar Hernandez (33) Rougned Odor (29) Chris Owings (31) Jean Segura (33) Andrelton Simmons (33) Josh VanMeter (28) Jonathan Villar (32) Tyler Wade (28) Center Fielders (Kike to 2B and Story to SS) Greg Allen (30) Albert Almora (29) Jackie Bradley Jr. (33) Lorenzo Cain (37) Jonathan Davis (31) Adam Duvall (34) Adam Engel (31) Guillermo Heredia (32) Odubel Herrera (31) Travis Jankowski (32) Jake Marisnick (32) Tyler Naquin (32) Rafael Ortega (32) Brett Phillips (29) Kevin Pillar (34) A.J. Pollock (35) Magneuris Sierra (27) Catchers Jorge Alfaro (30) Robinson Chirinos (38) Sandy Leon (34) Roberto Perez (34) Kevin Plawecki (32) Austin Romine (34) Gary Sanchez (30) Luis Torrens (27) LH RP Jose Alvarez (34) Anthony Banda (29) Zack Britton (35) Andrew Chafin (33) Aroldis Chapman (35) Ross Detwiler (37) Anthony Gose (32) Brad Hand (33) Jared Koenig (29) Kirk McCarty (27) T.J. McFarland (34) Jake McGee (36) Matt Moore (34) Sean Newcomb (30) Daniel Norris (30) Dillon Peters (30) Chasen Shreve (32) Will Smith (33) Justin Wilson (35) Alex Young (29) RH RP Jacob Barnes (33) Archie Bradley (30) Jhoulys Chacin (35) Steve Cishek (37) Alex Colome (34) Jharel Cotton (31) Tyler Danish (28) Tyler Duffey (32) Jeurys Familia (33) Michael Fulmer (30) Ken Giles (31) Chad Green (32) Jandel Gustave (30) Will Harris (38) Heath Hembree (34) Jeff Hoffman (30) Tommy Hunter (36) Luke Jackson (31) Ian Kennedy (38) Corey Knebel (30) Dominic Leone (31) Reyes Moronta (30) Jimmy Nelson (34) Darren O’Day (40) Scott Oberg (31) Wily Peralta (34) Luis Perdomo (30) David Phelps (36) Alex Reyes (28) Garrett Richards (35) Hansel Robles (32) Sergio Romo (40) Hirokazu Sawamura (35) Bryan Shaw (35) Joe Smith (39) Craig Stammen (39) Jackson Stephens (29) Hunter Strickland (34) Touki Toussaint (27) Luke Weaver (29) Matt Wisler (30)

I think the comment was related to the conversation directly after you said this... Sale is at his lowest value. You don’t deal him now. But Bloom seems to be a special kind of stupid, so look for a discount

If you look at just the 2022 numbers, and don't look at the names Bogaerts and JD Martinez, it's not as hard to expect a better offense in 2023. Our 1B offense was a complete disaster. I know relying on a rookie to improve upon anything is pure speculation, but I can't see Casas & Turner doing any worse than Dalbec/Cordero/Hosmer. Our 2047 PAs of a .676 OPS in the OF was pathetic. I know relying on a Japanese league player to improve upon anything is speculation, too, but we saw some god-awful performances on offense from many of last year's OF'ers. .578 JBJ in 271 .629 Kike in 402 (gotta think he can't do that badly, again) .645 Duran in 235 .672 Pham in 235 .697 Franchy in 275 Someone will get hurt, but I'm counting on better from Story and Devers and maybe close to the same offense from the catcher position. Is all this enough to offset this? .307 15 73 Bogey .274 16 63 JD with Yoshida & Turner Wanna know what the average line was for all Sox players per 682 PAs? .258 17 78 In reality, that's about what Bogey and JD gave us in 2023.

If he hits 25 in 600, Turner 15 in 500, Casas hits 25 in 550, McGuire 10 in 400, Story 8 more in 200 more PAs and Kike 4 more in 200 more PAs, we might be even or improve. the 31 Hrs in over 1200 PAs by Bogey and JD should not be hard to replace. Their RBIs, too.

Lost HRs and PAs 16 in 596 JD 15 in 631 Bogey 8 in 318 Vaz 6 in 235 Pham 3 in 290 JBJ 1 in 175 Plawecki 1 in 41 Downs 1 in 37 Almonte 0 in 128 others (5) Added: Yoshida (not known for power) Turner (13 in 532) (Expected more time from Casas 5/95, McGuire 3/108, Story 16/396, Kike 6/402 and maybe Refsnyder 6/177, Arroyo 6/300 and Wong 1/56.)

It's hard to fault him for taking Mayer over a pitcher, and some of his other non-pitcher picks seem to be rising up as the years go past, too. Bloom's Prospect pitching additions: Via trade, Rule 5 of FA Whitlock Kelly German Winckoski Seabold Kaleb Ort Taylor Broadway Luis de la Rosa Draft or IFA Rodriguez-Cruz Drohan Paez Uberstine Luis Guerrero Noah Dean Hunter Dobbins Wyatt Olds Michael Gettys

He was at his lowest value right at the time of surgery. Second lowest, was when they said he'd miss the rest of '22. He's not at the lowest, now. Why are rumors starting, now?

I'm not sure what the market value was when the offer was made. I'd guess it was close. I think $300M was fair, whether it fell slightly short of "market" or not. It was fair, IMO. If the report that he wanted $400M was true, I can see why we might not have bothered to counter with $310M/1o or $325M/11. Maybe the fault lies with never countering.