moonslav59

That has been what I have been trying to say. Maybe nothing was misjudged and nobody was misinformed. They set a value and it was never what BorA$$ would have accpted at anytime on the timeline, and IMO, we probably never came close enough to get serious with further offers, counteroffers and counter-counteroffers.

I don't think anyone disagrees. Even if they felt he was worth just $140M/6 (same as Story), that should have been offered. Maybe they did offer that. Maybe BorA$$ said, if you don't come back with anything higher than $180/7 or $200/8, don't bother, and so they did not. Is that at least a possibility? If it is true, or something like that, would that change your anger level?

2022 MLB per fangraphs: 1B: .246/.320/.410/.730 DH: .245/.319/.413/.732

Indeed, but that fact still does not mean he's worth $200M/8, and I bet the Sox would not give him that, right now, if they could.

I doubt he'd have taken even $160M/6 at the time we signed Story. Maybe someday we'll know the details.Maybe even $170M/6 or $180M/7 would not have gotten him to sign, either. How would that affect some people's feelings? Would finding out BorA$$ insisted on $200M/7 change everything? How about $200M/8?

Bloom has never traded a top player for just prospects, and even his trades of good players almost always involved a major league player and prospects. Granted, sometimes the major league player did not have plus value, but the one example that really fits your point is the Beni trade for 4 prospects and Cordero. The Renfroe trade kinda fits and brought us a negative value ML'er and 2 prospects. Betts got us a ML'er (Verdugo) and 2 prospects (Wong & Downs) Workman and Hembree brought us Pivetta and prospect Seabold. $$ for Ottavino got us German. Vaz got us 2 prospects, so maybe that fits. Groome got us Hosmer and 2 prospects. I agree on any Devers trade. It should be for one highly ranked prospects not 2, 3 or 4 lesser ones. We need quality prospects not more quantity. If the idea is to trade Devers for a prospect that is not ML ready, we might as well unload other players with value who see their control end in a 1-2 years- perhaps at the deadline (1 yr left: Kike & Brasier/ 2 years: Jansen, Martin, Verdugo, Pivetta, Arroyo & refsnyder)

IMO, the vast majority of players would see a significant raise while maybe the overall hit on owners would be minimal, except to cheap teams forced to spend more. That could be rectified with more revenue sharing to poorer teams. It could be a win-win to everyone but the top 4-5% of players, in theory.

Lots of ifs, but 2 of the 3 probably will happen. A stronger pen should boost the overall pitching fWAR. Much of our poor numbers had to do with our bottom 8-20 pitchers, and the "too high" amount of IP they got in 2022, partially due to injuries, but also because our #9-13 pitchers were not all that good to start with. We should see some addition by subtraction and not just from pitchers no longer here, but by seeing less of way less IP from some of our bad ones. I know I say that every year, but I have more confidence in the pitchers we have added to the pen and some of the incoming younger players and prospects than I have in a long time. The biggest drag on the 2022 staff... (Should/could see less IP or no IP in 2023) Listed by IP Ranking with (IP/fWAR) and bWAR- not how many IP our #13-19 pitchers by IP had.) 6. Crawford? (77/0.5) 0.2 bWAR 7. Winckowski (70/0.0) -0.3 9. Brasier (62/0.5) -0.8 12. Austin (54/0.3) -0.4 13. Sawamura (51/0.0) 0.7 15. Danish (40/-0.4) -0.1 17. Diekman (38/-0.5) 0.3 18. Ort (28/-0.1) -0.4 19. Robles (25/-0.7) -0.8 20. Seabold (18/-0.2) -1.0 21. Valdez (16/0.0) -0.1 22. Bazardo (16/-0.2) 0.3 24. Familia (10/-0.1) -0.1 25. DHern (7/-0.5) -0.9 Others (11/-0.3) 0.0 In all fairness, we also lost: 2. Wacha (127/1.5) 3.3 bWAR 3. R Hill (124/1.8) 0.9 4. Nate (109/1.0) 1.5 14. Strahm (45/0.3) 0.3

Very well put. It seems Bloom and the new Sox philosophy is not on this page, except for maybe hording prospect assets. Going back to DD's time, starting with right after the trades at the 2018 deadline, we've traded away almost no prospects and no top ones, at all. August 2018 to now is going on 4.5 years! Then, look at all the trades we made to acquire prospects, despite hardly any looking all that great, right now. It's obvious what we are hording.

Great points. My guess is, if some sort of hard cap is coming in 5 years, some sort of grandfather clause will be part of the deal, or there will be some way to exempt current players' big raises from fully counting vs the cap. To me, and I said this during the last talks, the top players keep getting major advances and it doesn't really trickle down as many hoped it would- sound familiar? The union needs to push hard for a floor level on team budgets that rises significantly and a major raise on min wage and arb levels. If they force the lower and mid level players to get substantial raises while increasing penalties for going over. This will almost surely force top salaries to not go up so much or even come down. The non spending teams will be forced to bring up their budgets by signing lower to mid range players, and there will actually be stronger competition for second and third tier free agents.

Spier said he think it happens in ST'ing or may never happen. I want Devers, almost as much as I wanted Betts, but we have to trade him, if we don't lock him up by opening day.

There might have been, but yes, who knows? The BorA$$ camp might have said something like, "If you wont come up to $200M/8, don't bother making a counteroffer, and the Sox felt there was no way they'd pay him that. Even in light of what he eventually got, they probably still would not have paid him $200M/8- rightly or wrongly.

I have said all along, IMO, at no point in the process have the Sox felt Bogey was worth market price. Yes, the market prices changed and drastically in the last month or so. Not wanting to pay market price is not the same as not wanting Bogey or having him as a top or the top priority. I'm sure Henry and others get some of their information from Bloom, as well as his opinions and recommendations. I don't think anyone knew the market was going to explode, including Bloom. They all got that wrong, but to me, it has nothing to do with us losing Bogey. IMO, they did not think he was worth about $170M/6 over a year ago. They did not think he was worth $200M/8 during the season and maybe into November, and they certainly don't think he's worth what he got. In hindsight, knowing what the market seems to be settling in at for the best of the best, $200M/8 looks like a good deal, and certainly one can rightfully blame Bloom & the rest of Sox management for not foreseeing the bubble bursting and locking Bogey up before it did. One can logically claim Sox brass for not seeing what was about to happen. I'm not sure many saw it coming, or all these guys might have been locked up long ago. I seriously doubt Bloom was the main guy or only guy getting the market projections wrong. He may or may not have had a major hand in figuring out what they thought Bogey would get. IMO, all along the way, whatever number they thought he'd get- right or wrong, they never felt he was worth paying that or near enough to get him to sign to stay here. We don't know, but maybe, if they had to do it again, they still would not pay him $200M/8, which might be the least he'd have agreed to. Call that a mistake. Call that a major mistake. It's a valid opinion, and when comparing that price to what others are making, it looks like a good deal. My point is, even if it looks like a good market deal, that, alone, does not mean we made a mistake not offering it, especially if they don't think he's worth it. Only time will tell, if he will be worth it, but with inflated salaries, the odds are, in 8 years, he will be, but again, being worth it does not mean we should have done it. There is a 40 man roster and a 26 man roster to think about. There is the future to think about. I think they see Mayer in our system and chose not to spend large and long on a SS who does not want to be moved off SS, whether he's worth $200M or not. Call that a mistake, too. Fine. It very well may be. I'd guess in 8 years we will say it was. We know, now, the Lester situation was a mistake, but certainly he could have declined, and few would still be talking about it.

They wanted Bogey- just not at market prices. Henry, Kennedy and everyone else involved in the decision making knew what was going on. There is absolutely no reason to think Bloom passed on misinformation to his bosses. Talk about conspiracies and cults!

Sounds like a great plan!

A 5 year deal to a 29 year old is ideal. I'm extremely hopeful, but so much is unknown. I'm on record for liking the signing.

I felt the same about Betts. They both played hard, loved the game and brought a lot of glory to our team. I wish him well, going forward. I'll always be grateful he played for us. It sucked seeing Lynn, Burleson, Fisk and others go too early. That really was something I hoped and thought I'd never see again. Boggs and Pedro were understandable, but watching Lester, Betts and Bogey leave with so much gas left in their tanks hurts just like when I was a teen watching that great 70's team be dismantled.

No, It's never been mentioned. In some ways, I felt when Ben took over, they were planning long term but not set year plan, while trying to look somewhat competitive along the way, so the fans wouldn't get too pissed. The win in 2013 kinda shocked the Nation, and Ben was gone before he had reached 5 years.

I've never wanted a 5 year plan. I only mentioned it in the context of us maybe dealing Devers and punting for a another couple years, which would make 5 total. Only in that light- in hindsight- would I then think, why didn't we just blow everything up after 2019 and truly follow the Astros model by tanking for 3 years and winning in 5.

Just get Andrus and not force two players off their better positions, just se Segura finds a home.

At least he'd have been honest and we'd be 3 years closer than if he decides to tear it down, now. That's all I'm saying. Even you said we should have traded Bogey over a year ago, if we knew he was a goner. Who knows what he's going to do, but I'm sure he's hearing the roar over all the false info Bloom is giving him.

Anthony Franco suggested Segura as the best fit for Boston with Story playing SS.

The Sox aren't the only big spending team that periodically resets.

If we end up trading Devers for prospects we should have just tore it all down 3 years ago and told the fans it was a 5 year plan. We'd be 3 years closer by now.

It's all semantics. Complainer/crybaby In over your head/basher Objective observers/cult members