Maxbialystock

Six days ago he was lights out, one of his best starts this year.

Maybe not, but it is also 100% bs. I'm surprised at you. Sale had one of his best starts of the season six days ago and you are saying he should have been shut down. Utter nonsense.

He is on six days rest. Are you seriously suggesting he should have been shut down until the postseason?

A very disheartening game given our ace on the mound giving up now three porcellos.

Happ working the corners way better than Sale and doesn't need K's to get easy outs. Of course, our lineup tonight ain't that hard to pitch to either.

All signs bad in our game. After Young's miracle double in the 1st, hitless and runnerless. Sale too is struggling with very high pitch count to go with the two Porcellos.

Thanks, Youk. Against lefty Happ-- 1 Bogaerts SS 2 Young RF 3 Benintendi LF 4 Ramirez DH 5 Travis 1B 6 Devers 3B 7 Marrero 2B 8 Leon C 9 JBJ CF Suspect bats among those 9: Young (ugh); HanRam; Leon; JBJ. Pedey still out no doubt because of the slump. Betts out because of the hand/wrist. Nunez because of the knee. Not good. Sale going on 6 days rest, and he needs to be great.

Now that a few folks have agreed ERod and Price might actually be better than POM, I would like to return to the title of this thread and agree with those who argue Pom has worked out. I don't like him, but his numbers are pretty darn good, and there can be no doubt he was badly needed this year. To me he has indeed been worth it. In 2013 we let a great fielding SS--Iglesias--go to Detroit so we could pick up Jake Peavy as a partial replacement for Buchholz. Peavy wasn't that great in 2013, but he was enough and therefore worth it when the Sox went all the way. I only regret the loss of Iglesias because I really enjoy great defensive plays.

That's how I see it too. I just find it hard to second guess guys with more information and more experience. Eck and Remy are paid to discuss stuff like that, whether or not they second guess Farrell. Heck, it's a good story precisely because Nunez was returning from the DL and is pretty valuable. Funny no one has pointed out that Farrell brought him back as the DH to minimize the risk to the knee. Plus he had him run the bases Sunday to demonstrate how the knee was affecting him. There is no way, no how Nunez had not taken plenty of swings at real pitches during his time on the DL. Plus this. I think the damage was done on that first swing and that the second swing and the line out did no further damage. If there was an error, it was bringing Nunez back too soon, but a lot of people who should know thought he was ready, and indeed so he appeared in his first at bat when he doubled and later scored.

Wow. Sale did that? Very unusual from a dedicated professional like him. As you say, it had to be the front office drove him to do something dramatic. Heck, for all we know, his goal was to encourage them to let him go.

For Sox righty hitters, Manny get my vote too. When he entered the HOF Mays said in all honesty he never saw anyone better, and I'm inclined to agree with that. He hit over 600 dingers before PED's, and he was a terrific centerfielder with a great arm and great eye for the ball, and he ran the bases well. His lifetime BA was only around .300, maybe lower, but I don't care. He also played well past his prime, and I'm fine with that too. He also missed 266 games in 1952-3--after getting Rookie of the Year in 1951--because he was drafted into the Army thanks to the Korean War (but he didn't go to Korea).

Oh, he's our #2 starter, not much doubt about that. But, I say again, he's our #2 largely because Price has been on the DL for big chunks of the season and came back too late to be a viable starter in the postseason. Porcello stinks this season despite the Cy Young last year. All those dingers are the result of his over-reliance on the fast ball and his inability to keep the ball low in the strike zone in an era when those shifts almost guarantee outs if the batter will hit a grounder. I think ERod right now is a better pitcher than Pom but agree he hasn't proven it yet. Lately, he's been pretty darn good, but, sadly, that could vanish. Heck, I still like Fister, but these days that's a hard sell. Right now, despite my grievances about Pom, I think he is a sure starter in the first 3 games of the ALDS. If ERod gets another good start and Pom fumbles his next, maybe ERod is the #2. Porcello is still #4. And I'm not sure what happens to Fister. And thank goodness Price right now represents a pretty good long reliever--say, 3 innings, maybe 4--if one of the starters falters.

Exactly. To me it also means he is the complete professional on the mound and and in working on his pitching between starts. He takes nothing for granted despite his immense talent.

What did Sale do with his uniform? I feel like I just fell off the rutabaga truck.

Complete agree. I am hard on Pom but agree the rotation is murky after Sale. Hell, it was worse than murky last year in the ALDS when we had the $30M man Price and the Cy Young winner Porcello bomb in the first two games--I mean just handed those games over to the Guardians. I have seen just two starters--Sale and Fister--actually work on their pitching to make it better. I have seen nothing like that from Pom or from ERod (except maybe for lately). I like Price, and he definitely has good stuff, but I'm not sure he works hard at his tradecraft.

I have been very specific about what I don't like, but I am also willing to acknowledge his numbers--WAR or ERA--say he has had a good year. Frankly, I think he has been lucky in the same way Sale has been unlucky. Sale, in case you are unaware, is five months younger than Pom but is the consummate professional who has worked hard at this craft and at being a complete pitcher. He is great on grounders to the right. He fields his position well. He has a terrific fastball, but also a good slider and good changeup. This year he has worked hard on staying low in the strike zone. He takes nothing for granted despite his great talent.

My gripe with Pom goes back quite a ways. The lousy start only confirmed what I have long thought. He doesn't routinely cover 1b on grounders to the right. He is a lefty who normally faces 6 of 9, 7 of 9, or even 8 of 9 righty bats and does not have a changeup. He has a good knuckle curve, but does not spot it well. He is more accurate with his so-so fastball, but also does not normally throw it for strikes in the bottom part of the zone. He has 16 quality starts in 31 starts largely because getting to 6 innings is a struggle for him because he wisely (I'm serious) uses a lot of pitches to get through an inning. He has to pitch carefully because he does not have great stuff and because he does not really have great control. As I said to moonslav, the fact that Pom remains our #2 starter is more a commentary on the fact that Price has been on the DL so much, Porcello has had a terrible year (after getting the Cy Young), and ERod, while he has good stuff, has struggled with command of his pitches, especially in the early innings.

Yeah, but none of them ever managed in the all American girls professional baseball league. Plus mays and Aaron never played for the Sox. Wise up.

Nice post. And bosoxmal certainly deserves it.

Not me. I just don't like Pom. Bullpen was great again. Lineup got it down to 1 run. I'm admittedly worried about Betts wrist, however.

I have to say that Holt is actually a pretty good hitter when the pitcher can't throw strikes. Seriously. It's those darn strikes that cause the problem. But he is just a young kid--barely a year older than that other great youngster Pomeranz--and, you know, is just happy to be here and wants to get better.

Big kid? He's 28 years old and this is his 7th season in MLB to say nothing of his minor league experience. And he still doesn't cover 1b on grounder to the right and he is still without a changeup in a veritable universe of righty batters to face.

Too true. Season to date, Pom has unquestionably been our second best starter. This to me, however, is a commentary on Price's injury, Porcello's absolute stinkeroo of a season, and ERod's immaturity in not working harder on commanding his pitches (he overall has good stuff). May I also say you alone have been saying the Sox will win this game. Well done even though we are still 1 down.

Actually, I've never liked him for the reasons stated, most of which center around his lack of professionalism, beginning with his disdain for covering 1b on grounders hit to the right--which he showed again tonight. He is a lefty with no changeup. He does not keep the ball low. In 32 starts this year, he has 16 quality starts, which is half the time. This is mostly because he has hard time getting to 6 innings. In September, for example, he has 5 starts and 25 innings. comparing Pom to Sale is a travesty because Sale is everything Pom is not, including his willingness to make adjustments which I have never, ever seen Pom do. He just throws the same old s*** and hopes his knuckle curve will get him thru. Sale always covers 1b on grounders to the right and in fact tries to field his position. Pom can't be bothered and in fact throws in a manner which routinely has him finishing toward 3b.

Incredibly stupid at bat by JBJ. 6 straight sliders low and away with one an actual strike, but he just couldn't resist swinging.