Kimmi

While I understand the reason for trading Buchholz, and getting under the tax limit this year is no small thing, I would have preferred to keep Buch. Pitching depth can be gone in the blink of an eye. Thankfully, it doesn't sound like the injuries to Wright and Pom are anything the team is too concerned with. On a related note, I cannot believe that ERod is working out with the Venezuelan team and is still a possibility to pitch in the WBC. After re-tweaking his knee, that should have been the end of that. And if either Wright's or Pom's injuries are more serious than we think, that's all the more reason for ERod to not risk his health.

They probably are, but they certainly have given me reason to question them.

Wake was so under appreciated.

I didn't like giving up Espinoza, but I was okay with this deal because we needed the pitching badly. The FO also sent a 'vote of confidence' message to the team by their willingness to trade for him. Personally, I am less against the trade for Pomeranz than I am against the trade for Sale, even though Sale is a much better pitcher than Pomeranz. Much of that has to do with timing and need.

I miss the days of Don and Jerry too. OB has done a good job, but I still prefer Don.

That really stinks. I wish him the best.

Actually, I think plenty of people still 'worry' about the Pablo signing. Beyond that, I'm still not buying that there is any difference between the cases, other than who's doing the 'worrying'. I think you're arguing semantics with me. In either case, there is nothing we can do about it, which was the point you were making. I don't see the difference between being concerned about the future, which we can do nothing about, or complaining about current contracts, which we can do nothing about.

I agree. That I know of, no stat geek has ever suggested that stats will give you the complete story. By the same token, the eye test cannot tell you the complete story either. Perhaps that's what bothers me when someone says "I don't need stats".

Sorry, not buying that Bell. There's still nothing anyone can do about specific moves, so why worry about them?

What I don't agree with is using stats, so long as they agree with your already formed opinion based on observation, but then claiming that the stats are useless or wrong when they don't support your opinion.

I didn't say that you were the one doing the suggesting. No, I don't think that there are people who don't care about the future of the franchise. That said, there have been posts here that have basically stated that they don't care what happens in 3 years or in 2021.

And if I say I am concerned about the future, it doesn't mean I'm not enjoying the present.

There is no doubt that our team, pitching staff in particular, is better with Sale on it than without him. We'll just have to disagree on how much of a need he really is. Our organization is in great shape or 3 or 4 years. I will withhold any enthusiasm about the state of the team beyond that until the time draws nearer.

You are right that there's not a thing than anyone can do about what the team does. In that sense, how is my concern about the future any different than all of the endless criticism that we've heard about things like picking up Buchholz' option, extending Porcello when he was pitching badly, or signing Pablo?

Yes, I think you and I are mostly on the same page here.

Which is exactly why I am against depleting the farm.

On the other side of that, even to remotely suggest that there are posters here who won't be able to enjoy this season because we are too distraught over the future is preposterous. We are concerned about the future. We are not getting ready to jump off the Tobin or even losing sleep over it. It's a valid and reasonable concern. For anyone to suggest otherwise is a little short sighted. Being concerned about the future does not preclude being able to enjoy the now. A middle of the ground approach would be to build a team that can win now while at the same time maintaining a strong farm. Not either/or.

That's my contention. You can have a win now philosophy without sacrificing the future. Is it really necessary to improve your team from one that should win the division by 3 games to one that should win the division by 6 games, at the expense of the long term outlook? My answer is no.

I agree with you that now is the time to 'cash in'. What I disagree with is the extent of the cashing in. I don't think that we needed to add Sale. We were already strong contenders. Perhaps it would have been better to wait until midseason to see if there was a real need that we needed to trade for. As I have said before, I don't have a problem with the Sale trade per se. What I have a problem with is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system in less than 2 years. Yes, he needed to make some moves because it is time to cash in. I do not like the 'win now at any cost' philosophy. IMO, we could have had a strong contender for the next 3 years and kept some of the prospects that were traded.

It is quite possible that after our '3 year window', our team and our farm system will be in pretty good shape. However, I think it's a very fair concern for those of us who are concerned about the long term state of the team. I do not approve of the large number of prospects that Dombrowski traded away. I especially don't approve of it because I don't think it was necessary. I especially, especially don't approve of it because he wasn't the one who put in the hard work to build such a strong farm to begin with.

As much opposition as there is to WAR, it really is a great stat. It's not perfect, but it is pretty comprehensive and it is pretty simple to use. It also allows for comparisons across leagues, positions, and time eras. Most importantly, it works. It should not be the end all be all, but if you had to stick to just one stat, WAR is it.

The above being said, here is my opinion regarding stats: 1. No one needs stats to simply watch and enjoy a baseball game. 2. However, if you are on a baseball forum discussing and debating baseball with serious and knowledgeable fans, which we all are, then you need to be able to back up what you're saying. It may not sit well with some people, but IMO, saying that "I know what I see" isn't going to cut it because of points 1 and 2 above, especially when the stats say otherwise. That is JMO, but I'm going to call you on it every time. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but just a general statement. 3. Often times, even when what we see is obvious, it's nice, fun, or interesting to be able to quantify things. For example, Papi's baserunning, which NS asked about in another thread. We all know he was bad at baserunning. We even heard the comment "I don't need stats to tell me that", which is fair enough. However, I was intrigued to know exactly how bad he was. Nicely enough, there's a stat for that. 4. In short, stats are both wonderful and necessary.

I have no doubt that everyone here knows enough about baseball that they can make pretty accurate assessments about players' performances without any stats. I do not doubt that one bit. That being said, there are two big caveats to that: 1. Your eyes and your biases will deceive you sometimes. That is not a knock on anyone's ability to 'know what they see'. It's just a fact of human nature. 2. There is no way to make any comparative assessments without stats unless you watch every game played by every team. If you really don't care about the other teams, then I suppose you don't need stats.

LOL I have said many times that I am a traditionalist in many ways. You guys just don't believe me. When it comes to the rules governing the way the game is played on the field, I am far more traditional or old school than not.

It's not just that, but also the points that UN? and Spud made. The great majority of the time, the IBB will be completed without issue. But there is enough that can happen that it's worth leaving it alone.