a700hitter

I think you could read the remarks of Tito and Theo as being in a comfortable position knowing they had the wild card in certain years. It's not a nonsensical conclusion. They don't start the season that way, but as things progressed during certain seasons they thought that lining up their pitching for the post season was more important. They said it. I didn't. You need to take it down a notch. You can't just reply to another poster's opinion with "that's nonsense." We have one ******* like that already. That's enough.

I think there are probably about a dozen instances over the last several seasons where Tito and/or Theo have answered questions by saying that their goal was to win the Division, but it was more important to have their pitching lined up for the playoffs. I think that raises the question legitimately in peoples minds about whether they are just playing for the wild card. Your response of "nonsense" was nonsense.

Two comments on this post. First, we were not trotting out 6 and 7's. The guys we were trotting out like Weiland and Miller should not have been on the roster. Wakefield should have been in an assisted living facility. Harden and Millwood would have been 6 and 7's. We weren't in need of a big rotation piece. We needed a few competent starts from competent starters. Second, how can you say we were going nowhere? We needed 2 more wins to get into the playoffs.

Your command of the English language is excellent. You should invite some of these posters into the Latin thread so you can confirm your suspicions about their circular arguments.

Why is it nonsense? Please explain.

Here was my opinion about the issue before the season ended. http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/15817-should-red-sox-consider-bard-starter-2012-a.html#post698177 ^Read this thread This is one of several positive posts in that thread made by me about Bard going to the starting rotation. Of course, you have assumed that I have been negative about this. You should read that thread and then you'll know how I feel about the issue. Maybe you should be certain about your facts before you start criticizing others. Here was my first post about Bard becoming a starter. The date of this post is August 14th. I was basically told that I was crazy and had no proof that the Sox were considering Bard as a starter. Maybe you should read that thread too. http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/15588-jonathan-papelbon-can-we-lock-him-up-please-2.html#post685732 ^You should read this thread too. But you are not negative. BTW: With regard to this thread, some of us have been asking for discussion about this for many months. We already had a thread about this. Edit; So how about we keep the discussion to sports since you really suck at insulting posters?

So let me get this right ORS. I make a post about Pineda's abilities, because our competitors the Yankees just got him, and you take that as an opportunity to start an argument with me about Bard who I have discussed becoming a starter before the season ended. You don't think that is being unnecessarily argumentative? It was also without any provocation. Even after your lame-ass attempt to get under my skin, I still played it off in good humor, but that was still not enough for you. You had to launch into a whine-ass festival with E1 about other posters. That's not negativity? You have problems dude.

The problem SFF is if the Yanks moves are wash with regard to their 2011, they did beat us by 7 games in 2011, so we are not closing the gap.

The Yankee rotation will be much stronger in 2012 than it was in 2011. They have an ace that always contends for CY Young, and they are 7 deep at the major league level.

Of course the players lost it on the field. That is where things get decided. Howver, we were only running two capable pitcher to the mound (Beckett and Lester) for the last 2 plus months of the season. The missing pieces of road were clear to everyone.

It looks more like a detour year. The bridge apparently collapsed.

There was nothing revisionist in my post. There are huge errors in your post above. At the time of the trading deadline, it was being reported that Buchholz condition was not improving and rather that it was worsening. As of July 28th, they were scheduling him to meet another back specialist and there was genuine concern that he would not return in 2011. It was being acknowledged in the press that Buchholz's injury might change the Sox approach to the trading deadline. It was reported in the press on August 1st that he had a stress fracture and was unlikely to come back. Here are links to articles that I found at that time. I am sure there are many more. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/782809-mlb-trade-rumors-clay-buchholz-injury-worsening-red-sox-forced-to-trade http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/28/2300619/clay-buchholz-injury-red-sox-back http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/08/boston-red-sox-clay-buchholz-back-injury/1 I acknowledged in my post that sometimes injuries cannot be prepared for or dealt with after the fact. However, 2011 was not that situation for the Sox. They had several options available to address the situation-- some very low cost and others at a high cost (like Fister-- who is a great pickup for the Tigers). The Sox opted for one fragile pitcher who was on the DL with a bad knee. They blew it. I never said that injuries aren't part of the discussion of what happened. Of course they are part of the reason for the collapse. There is no doubt about that. No one is disputing that. However, it is not an excuse for the FO in 2011 who didn't deal with the situation that was clearly becoming a crisis by the trading deadline. They knew Buchholz was not recovering. He had not even thrown off a mound by the trading deadline. They knew he had a fractured back before the deadline. Dice K had already undergone TJ surgery and it was suspected that Lackey was injured. There was a crisis staring them in the face and they responded with Bedard to bolster a $170 million payroll that was clearly in need of 3 starters. That was a huge misstep, and many of us non-professionals could see it at the time. What would Harden have brought? He only needed to bring 1 or 2 wins more wins than either Weiland or Wakefield or Miller. That was it. He didn't have to bring a lot. It's acknowledged that he has good major league stuff. He was going to be better than the guys we were rolling out there 3 of every 5 games. They didn't all get fired? One walked? Tito wouldn't have gotten fired if chicken-gate didn't go public? :lol: You really have nothing. Finally, going forward, the FO Office apologists should be on notice that injuries will not be an excuse in 2012, unless as I said previously, their plane crashes. We have a rotation of 3 reliable Major League pitchers. To say that our pitching staff lacks depth at this point going into 2012 would be a huge understatement. The situation is clear to everyone. If they do nothing to address it and they suffer an injury to the big 3, while it will be a reason for another bad season, it will not excuse the FO negligence.

It's starting to occur to me that the FO (including Benny Boy) wants Bobby V to play the bad cop. The statements we have heard and the ones today about Tek and Wakefield are probably more a result of a bigger strategy rather than Bobby V just being a loose cannon. I guess this type of strategy can work, but it is not ideal for player-manager relations. If it is going to work, he will have to have the complete unequivocal support of the FO. I don't know if he can put a lot of faith in that. LL is a duplicitous SOB. Edit: I didn't like reading the quote below from Valentine today, because it is probably true. One thing Benny boy hasn't done this season is mislead anyone. He has done what he has said he would do. Bobby V is in the know, and this is probably Benny boys plan.

I think the + was a PTBNL-- again not a big cost. Let's face it, Lars was a zero cost as he has zero future with this Sox and almost no trade value. They had to offer something, hence the PTBNL. It was not going to be a top tier prospect. The whole thing backfired on Theo. If you remember, he was desperately trying to pry away Bruce Chen from KC in the final week and Capuano on the last weekend. I still don't know why the Mets declined. They let Capuano walk. I guess they have bigger dummies in their FO.

Thank goodness that this chapter is finally closed... about 2 years too late.

The bad news for Saturday was that Benny Boy still hasn't gotten the team a starting pitcher. He is busy trying to limit the damage he caused by offering Ortiz arbitration. What evr time he has left over he is using to lock down a pscho journeyman Padilla. On the bright side, Bobby V has gone on record saying that neither Wakefield or Varitek has any chance of making the team if they come to Spring training. Thank you Bobby V for being the bad guy and shutting the door on these over the hill has beens. Apparently Benny Boy doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to break the news to them.

I should have clarified. The type of pitcher being discussed in the poll is a quality pitcher like Oswalt, not a garbage journeyman psycho like Padilla or a chump like Silva.

At what cost? They had a deal done for Harden in return for Lars A (who has absolutely no future with the Red Sox and almost no trade value). The Sox pulled the plug. Stupid move, especially in light of the fact that they knew Bedard had a knee injury and a history of being brittle. Giving up Lars A was essentially no cost. It would not have compromised the future or gutted our farm. Harden would have been a nice insurance policy, and if he had won 1 or 2 games, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Theo didn't make the move. His bad, and that is why injuries were not an excuse for 2011. iortiz is 100% right. Injuries come with the territory. It's not a platitude. The top of the food chain (the owners) didn't say "aw shucks that's too bad. We had some bad breaks." They fired everyone's ass. Everyone's. There is your proof that it was not an excuse. Injuries are a loser's lament. People remember who won and who lost. No one cares that Jim Rice was injured for the 1975 post season. The Reds of the 1970's will always be remembered as the Big Red Machine and 2 time champions. You are right that sometimes a team can't plan to deal with injuries, but last season was not one of those seasons. They could have made moves that would have been costly like Fister (great move by the Tigers) or a cheap move like Harden. They had another zero cost move available--Millwood. They let him go and he did pretty decent for Colorado. They did neither the cheap moves or the expensive moves. That's why the injuries are not an excuse for 2011. They had options. You have no argument. None.

When my ass is bleeding, it's hard to think that it is only intermittent. You are right. We have had the ebb. Now we could use some flow.