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Does it matter? That's like asking whether the guy in the lifeboat should jump in the water and die of drowning or stay in the boat and die of dehydration. Either way, he's dead. Lester can probably start fresh next year, but one more pummeling won't change him for better or worse in my opinion. Given that he's more-or-less at the "work through it" stage, he might as well have as many opportunities to work through it as possible.

I don't think Cherrington has been given enough time to know what he is or isn't, even if so many here are ready to jump down his throat. You can't make an injured, uninspired team healthy and inspired. He could fire the pitching coach though. Not sure what he has to offer.

Yeah, Jacob Turner was quite a bit to give up. Very good prospect. Let's just admit it: if the Sox were in win now mode they would have been more active trying to, like, do stuff. If they were in win tomorrow mode they would be more active trying to do stuff. They are in "let's not admit we're not in win-now mode, so we can sell tickets". That's the worst mode to be in. Fortunately, their losses on the field have trumped their attempts to compete, so they are obviously in sell mode. Ben might as well embrace it, and take advantage of some of the freedom that allows (like trading stars for pieces nobody has heard of). Does anyone want Aceves down the stretch? I bet he would fetch a good price.

This thread has me so excited I can't sleep. zzzzzzzzzz

Newsflash: when you are paying 4 pitchers about 15m a year and have a 5th signed long term, you don't just go and sign other pitchers to longterm contracts. Roy Oswalt has a 5.22 ERA and 1.67 WHIP this year. Nobody was advocating for them to get CJ Wilson. Yes, it would have been nice if they could have upgraded the rotation this year, but sometimes things literally aren't possible. The problem with the rotation isn't the 4-5 pitchers, it's the guys who would have been here anyway. They absolutely suck. I don't know what the on-field answer is, but the off-field answer is that they have to fire the pitching coach and they have to do it yesterday. I'm not even hearing plausible explanations about why these guys are so terrible, just befuddlement.

No typo. I think Ross's numbers are inflated and would keep him lower in the order. At that stage of the lineup, though, I could be convinced otherwise.

This is an over simplification, isn't it? They have the best offense in baseball by some measures, and have some pitchers who, when on, can be very good. They also have a very solid bullpen and very good defense. To simply say they aren't good seems to miss the forest for the trees. Their starting pitching is awful and there seems to be a culture around the team that perpetuates extreme streakyness. It's like the Philadelphia Eagles or something.... on paper the team is really good, by history they are really good. In some areas they are really good. But on the field, not so much.

I don't think I disagree, though I think there are some players who contradict what you are saying here. I think that Ellsbury needing a day off here should be getting as much negative attention as Beckett needing to skip a start did a few months ago. Perhaps the amount of negative attention it yields should be lower (and should have been for Beckett too) but I think it is absurd and can't think of a single f***ing reason. I defended the idea that Ellsbury needed time to rehab and to come up at near full-strength. However, it just doesn't make sense that they would have played him in all these minor league games only to sit him now. Frankly it doesn't make sense that they would sit him at all, because he's not going to be with the team after 2013 and his ability to be fully 100% is mostly about signing a big contract, not helping the team. It would make a lot more sense to me if they did this with Pedroia or even Crawford, both of whom have committed to being Red Sox beyond next year. But Ellsbury is essentially a lame duck and should be playing every single day to justify the huge contract he will get that takes him away from Boston. Or they should just trade his ass. I love watching him play but damn...

Would it bother you so much if he wasn't hitting in the middle-bottom of the order? He should be hitting 8th IMO and he wouldn't be pissing anyone off. Ross should be hitting 7th. Ellsbury Crawford Pedroia Ortiz Gonzalez Middlebrooks Ross Salty Aviles It seems pretty simple to me. Don't put Ross ahead of Middlebrooks. Don't put Salty ahead of Middlebrooks. Don't put Salty ahead of Ross. It isn't that confusing. If Ross hits 2 HR, that's great, leave him at the bottom of the order. There's a reason the Sox were able to pick him up for a few million late in the off-season and why he's played for multiple seasons. Have the catcher with some pop and the OF with a high SLG hitting down in the order. Hope to catch lightning in a bottle occasionally. Of course, for the same middling defense, the Sox could have Lavarnway up who is a legitimate .350 OBP threat at the plate with roughly the same power as Salty. He could hit higher in the order, IMO. This team is so damn frustrating.

Good thing Ellsbury had a planned day off today. I would hate for the Sox to appear like they care about winning. He really couldn't manage the workload of 4 ABs, a few sprints and maybe a play or three in the OF? Jesus, what the f***?

It's completely on him to make sure the team isn't facing a hole after the first inning. That kills a team's offense.

FWIW, I bet Beckett and Lester each get one more start before the Sox do something drastic like sitting one or both of them. At some point, Lucchino/Ben/Henry are going to say "We literally cannot put you back out on the mound right now. The games are too important."

I think even MLB regular pitchers would put the Sox in a position to win half their games. Lester and Beckett have been proactively bad, not just average. They have pretty much taken the giant bag of feces that John Lackey carried with him last year, divided it into two equally sized satchels, and ported it with them from start to start. Not just struggling, but really bad. That's why I'm more aggressive toward the Sox getting Garza and/or Dempster. Both can be at worst MLB average and don't have this pig-pennish cloud hanging over them. Hell, Dempster has a sub-2 ERA, which means he is throwing very well. He pitched very well against the Sox this year too, so it's not like he's doing it solely against s***** NL teams.

I have to disagree with this. Kalish is 24 years old. He has 0 years of MLB experience. In 3 years he will be entering his first Arb season and be smack in the prime of his career. I think he is exactly the type of player Theo would love to have. There's no doubt he's MLB capable (unlike Swihart, Cecchini, Owens) but he hasn't used any of his time yet. The same is true for Lavarnway (minus the certainty that he can stick at the C position). IMO, Kalish is the most valuable kind of prospect there is: right on the threshold of MLB service with virtually none of it exhausted. It will take zero internal resources for the Cubs to put him on the field. His upside isn't as high as a Hanley Ramirez in his first year, and he's a bit injury prone, but I can't see Theo et al., balking at a package centered around Kalish.

Do you think there are many pitchers who have a body of success against the Yankees? Seems like a pretty high threshold.

I haven't heard that they can't afford both Hamels and Lee (and Halladay) but would anyone be shocked if they preferred not to? I can see them wanting to avoid a huge salary for three pitchers, two of whom are on the wrong side of their careers. Unfortunately for the Phills, just like the Sox, they are probably stuck with their top two. Fortunately for them, both Lee and Halladay have MUCH higher upsides than Beckett and Lester. Unfortunately for them, they don't have nearly the offensive firepower that the Sox do. I would rather be the Sox, honestly. I wouldn't be against the Sox being aggressive to land a guy like Hamels, depending of course on the asking price. If a huge upside-low current success guy like Ranaudo could get the job done I would be okay with that deal. Hamels is both the type of acquisition who could put the Sox over the top for a WC spot, and the type of guy who could win a one-game WC play-in. With the Sox defense, offense and bullpen I would actually give them even odds in a first round series against, say, Anaheim, or the White Sox.

Doubront's career high in IP is 130 (in the minors, in 2008). There's a chance he will either fatigue or be rested as the season progresses. I think there's a chance the Sox find a way to sit Lester and/or Beckett if they continue to suck like this. They will find some reason (or Beckett will actually have a reason) to not be able to pitch any more. If Lester keeps sucking they should have him take a break and think about what he's done. If you don't think Garza is better then we should probably be rooting for Dempster. They need pitching help.

Well, apologists are warranted if his performance is good. That's what matters most. Being a douche doesn't equate with being a bad baseball player. Beckett single-handedly crushed the Sox momentum tonight. Baseball is a team game, but goddamn if a single starting pitcher can't negate the good work of a team. It's a pathetic sign when I'm relieved that Aaron Cook is starting a game rather than Lester or Beckett.

Ouch. Don't send Kalish for Garza. That would be an absolute victory for Theo. No point in sending young guys who are immediately part of the plan. The Sox can't bank on re-signing Ross. It would be nice if they could, but he could look at the clusterf*** here in Boston and want no part in it. Then where would they be? I'm not sure what Theo would want here, but my untouchables (for Garza) list is pretty long. The guy I'm stuck on is Lavarnway. I like him, and think he could be a nice piece on the team. I also think he could get the deal done and am not sure where he fits in the Sox future plans. I would start with Britton, and maybe make it all the way to Lavarnway. Nava would be on the list of possible pieces as well.

Are there still apologists? He's been mediocre at best and bad at worst. Inexcusable.

I realize I'm hours late (watching on the west coast, on DVR when I get home from work) but THAT is a f***ing win. Hell yeah!

Matt Barnes.

I thought Crawford looked okay tonight. A good basehit, a line drive to RF and a walk. I'll take it. I hope Crawford comes back to his old form. He's a really exciting player to watch.