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I agree a700, unless V does something that really embarrasses the club he will probably make it to the end of the season. Again, they might as well lose at this point. They have more to gain by moving up the draft. They are currently tied for 9th worst record in baseball. That would give them the 9th or 10th pick. Who were previous 9th/10th picks? 2003: John Danks/Ian Stewart 2004: Chris Nelson/Thomas Diamond (Jared Weaver and Billy Butler were still on the board though) 2005: Mike Pelfrey/Cameron Maybin (Andrew McCutchen went 11th) 2006: Billy Rowell/Tim Lincecum (Max Scherzer went 11th) 2007: Jarrod Parker/Madison Bumgarner 2008: Aaron Crow/Jason Castro 2009: Jacob Turner/Drew Storen 2010: Karsten Whiton/Michael Choice (Yasmani Grandal and Chris Sale went 12 and 13th) 2011: Javier Baez/Corey Spangenberg 2012: Andrew Heaney/David Dahl The point is that there is almost always significant talent available at one of those spots if a team knows what to look for. It's a small point of optimism, but it would be good reason to leave Valentine in. He's become very adept at not winning in 2012.

It's such a tough sell to say that his ceiling is perennial all-star at SS and 3B. There are simply so many great players in baseball that saying he's a perennial all-star at SS means his ceiling is hall of fame caliber. I mean, what is an example of a perennial all-star at SS or 3B? Jeter, A-Rod, Longoria? Tulo (?). Even Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes wouldn't meet that category. So while that ceiling does sound a bit high, I realize that his ceiling is considerably higher than just about any prospect the Sox have had for awhile. If that's the case, and they end up being right, then he could potentially end up being that caliber of player. That would be really exciting. Just don't want to get ahead of ourselves. A floor--if his trajectory continues as it has--might be a guy like Renteria. He came up with the Marlins very young, had a few years with 10-15 HR, played solid defense, and was a key part of a few WS contending clubs. That's not a bad floor. Of course, if that's his floor then there's no reason NOT to trade him when his value is so high.

It wasn't unreasonable to think this team would be much better than it is. I for one did accuse you of being negative but not of being a lousy fan. You are negative and have been since I have known you. This year it worked out for you. I didn't hear people saying that the first half injuries would be the worst in baseball or that Doubront would be the best pitcher for the first 3 months and Lester would be the worst. Even the most dire prognostications didn't see this terrible team as a certainty.

1) The team is really bad right now. 2) The Red Sox, as a bad team, are in the same spot that the historically bad teams like the Pirates, Nationals and Padres sometimes stay for a long time. The reality is that there are a lot of relatively good teams right now and many fewer who are simply not competing any time soon. Add to that the fact that the very worst teams have already rid themselves of any significantly big contracts and their best players. Bad teams aren't "rebuilding" and the teams that were rebuilding are now competing. Yes, the Sox could overpay for some good pieces, but that might get them back where they were before. ------------------ In the random s*** department, would anyone give up a like Xander + for, say, Carlos Gonzalez? CarGo might be a better bet than Justin Upton, except he would be much harder to get. Is he untouchable? Seems like Colorado is equally stalled and hopeless, and they are one of the teams probably can't afford to have 'untouchable' players just yet. Could they get the Sox to overpay in talent?

I think what the Sox realized is that you can be so hurt on the field that it hurts you financially, even if the huge up-front cost doesn't hurt. Even with the Dodgers deep pockets I suspect they will still feel obligated to play their expensive players. There hasn't been a team yet that just sat those guys. So if Crawford or Beckett are terrible I don't think they will just sit them. That means they take up roster spots. Add an injury here, and another bad contract or two and the Dodgers will feel the exact same pressure of suckitude that the Red Sox felt. l

I'd say that's the benefit of letting the kids play more. I will definitely pay attention when Lavarnway or Kalish are batting, or if Iglesias has to make a play in the field. This too shal pass my friend. We can also keep rooting for the Yankees to continue their slow descent. It would be great if they were nudged out of the playoffs by a few hot wild-card teams. I can at least hope.

I hate to say it, but if the Sox are going to have a bad season they should have a REALLY bad season. They should aim to get the best draft pick they possibly can at this point. While I don't want them throwing games, I dont hate it when they lose at this point. If they can get a protected pick then they can sign FAs without worrying about draft picks. They should have their best draft spot in years, and every spot up the list makes their choices better. If they are in rebuilding mode they should look for the best picks possible.

The Red Sox really like elite talent. Just to refresh my memory about who some players are who are considered "elite" I took a look at all top 5 picks in the draft from 1997 to now. The list below includes only players who made it to at least AAA or MLB. As you will realize, there's plenty of elite talent, a few of whom the Sox have already dated... 1B Adrian Gonzalez 2000 Eric Hosmer 2008 Pat Burrell 1998 2B Rickie Weeks 2003 3B Alex Gordon 2005 Evan Longoria 2006 Josh Vitters 2007 Mark Teixeira 2001 Mike Moustakas 2007 Pedro Alvarez 2008 Ryan Braun 2005 Ryan Zimmerman 2005 C Buster Posey 2008 Jeff Clement 2005 Joe Mauer 2001 Matt Wieters 2007 Tony Sanchez 2009 Eric Munson 1999 CF Dustin Ackley 2009 IF Corey Myers 1999 Luis Montanez 2000 OF Bryce Harper 2010 Chris Lubanski 2003 Corey Patterson 1998 Delmon Young 2003 J.D. Drew 1998 Josh Hamilton 1999 P Adam Johnson 2000 Adam Loewen 2002 Brad Lincoln 2006 Brandon Morrow 2006 Brian Matusz 2008 Bryan Bullington 2002 Clint Everts 2002 Daniel Moskos 2007 Danny Hultzen 2011 David Price 2007 Dewon Brazelton 2001 Drew Pomeranz 2010 Gavin Floyd 2001 Greg Reynolds 2006 Jeff Austin 1998 Jeff Niemann 2004 Josh Beckett 1999 Justin Verlander 2004 Justin Wayne 2000 Luke Hochevar 2006 Mark Mulder 1998 Mark Prior 2001 Mark Rogers 2004 Mike Stodolka 2000 Philip Humber 2004 Tim Stauffer 2003 Trevor Bauer 2011 Stephen Strasburg 2009 SS B.J. Upton 2002 Christian Colon 2010 Justin Upton 2005 Manny Machado 2010 Tim Beckham 2008 Clearly some of these players are not available, while others are pretty bad. I would be thinking about guys who are either unproven yet (Garrett Cole--unlisted--/Trevor Bauer if they wanted to shoot big) or guys who are somewhere between a bonafide star and a flop. For instance players like Alex Gordon or Justin Upton (especially if the Sox move Ellsbury) could make sense.

Doubront + prospect + some salary relief and sign me up. I like Doubront, but this team isn't going to win if he's a really substantial part of the rotation. If he's a #4 or 5 then he can be replaced.

I'm pretty sure the Sox need hitting too. A team can always use offense and the Sox just lost their best hitter. This is basically an Ellsbury, Pedroia, Middlebrooks team right now, with add-ons like Ross, Ciriaco, and occasionally Salty/Lavarnway playing supporting roles. I'd say both the lineup and the rotation need work. Mauer offers a number of interesting options. His cost is really huge, but as a700hitter put it, his skill set around OBP is really phenomenal. He can catch. He can play some 1B. He's supposedly a natural leader. What would make a deal like that realistic for the Sox? Well, obviously some salary relief would be nice. I don't think the Sox will get the Twins to pay any substantial portion of his contract to get rid of Mauer. Also, the prospects would likely be prohibitive. I'm not for the Sox sending a substantial package for that much money. If they could deal a group of 2nd tier prospects and get, say, $15m, I'd consider it. $15m shaves $2.5m a year off every year, or makes it effectively a $20.5m salary. Twins won't do that. Anything beyond that I can't see the Sox doing. It effectively banks their Carl Crawford money + prospects on another player who has a questionable health history and a SLG under .500. Anyone should want Mauer, but not if it limits the franchise moving forward.

Get the Twins to eat some salary and I'm on board. That contract is scarry though.

Well, every loss is a godsend at this point. In my opinion it is the draft they are playing for now.

I was wondering tonight whether the Sox might use their new flexibility to go after a guy like Lee, or Lincecum. Lincecum is owed $22m for 2013 then a FA. Lee has 3 seasons at $25m each starting in 2013. How much good would it do them to land a guy like Cliff Lee? I honestly don't know. His salary is absurd, and has some length. A guy like Lincecum might be good enough against unfamiliar opponents for a year that he could rebound somewhat. His stuff is less-good, but Lincecum with poor stuff is better than your average pitcher. I don't love the idea, but he would be a one year deal and might be available without too much difficulty.

If there is any discussion of a Felix deal, it would inevitably include the two best prospects the Sox just got for Adrian. Of course it would. de la Rosa and Webster would be gone. Probably along with Barnes and a guy like Middlebrooks and they still might demand Cecchini. That's the type of package I envision Seattle needing to part with Felix. Just like the Dodgers apparently did with Gonzalez, when you say that "Felix is available but he will cost you...", you get some pretty crazy offers I'm sure.

Anyone have thoughts about the Sox moving on Justin Upton? I know most people are in pitching mode (appropriately) but he's only 24 and is one of those uber talented players teams like Boston should covet. My biggest concern is the return package, but an OF of Upton, Ellsbury and Kalish would be pretty interesting. His salary is basically 10, 14, 14 over the next 3 years. I can't say he's the worlds best player, but at that price he's good. Also, with his age, there is high probability for a breakout season. He's got the tools to be one of the games best players for sure.

Loney could be that exact type of low-risk signing the Sox have done so well with the past few years. Give him a one year contract after some (hopefully) success in September in Boston. Allow him to reestablish his value a little bit and send him on his way. Honestly, the "who plays 1B" issue would be pretty low on my priority list for the next year or so. The biggest issue is who do they build the team around.

I'm not sure that a lesson to be drawn from this situation is that other teams can take your bad contracts. This was a unique confluence of big market franchises moving in different directions, with very few competing interests. Next time the Dodgers won't be there to pick up the pieces. Add to that the notion that sometimes pitchers get injured or become ineffective and I think the list of pitchers warranting big FA money gets very small for the Sox. Greinke might be a good pitcher but not right now, not for this club. They should go scrap heap, build up their prospect pool, and aggressively shop for top notch SP who aren't committed for 5 years. I suspect that their next ace is someone we barely know about now.

The Sox could roll the dice and just hopes that he develops into a genuine SS. I mean, I realize that scouts say he can't stick and that's the general consensus... but he's a guy who is now playing SS, at 19 y.o., for AA Portland. He's not a bumbling defensive fool, obviously, if they have kept him there. There is very little more valuable than a power-hitting SS who can play the position. I suspect he won't have any lack for groundball practice, so his transition to 3B or wherever can be handled later.

If they don't sell it means that they are serious about this business. Now is the perfect time to sell if they are interested. If they don't they might not see another opportunity like this for a long time, and I'm sure they know it. This is the Haley's Comet of budget opportunities. Fans should be able to infer a really strong commitment to the organization if they stick around.

Too soon to predict. I think that their success with one year stop gaps like Beltre and Ross makes that approach extremely attractive moving forward. I also don't expect to see them spending as much moving forward. I may be wrong, but there are so many other approaches it would be unwise to sign longterm FA contracts. That said, being aggressive on international FAs like Soler and Cespedes seem like better uses of funds. Are the Sox now the richest, least financially committed team in baseball? I can't think of another. Maybe the rangers (can't check cots now) but their day is coming to resign their best players too. Philly, Angels, Dodgers, Yankees... Maybe the mets, how is their financial commitment moving forward. To some degree it appears that the Sox and Cubs will be competing to be the big market rebuilder. The Sox, however, we're able to get out from under their contracts. The cubs, not as much.

I had the same thought. Which business gets multiple busses without doing an RSVP system. I suspect plenty of people in the organization took advantage.

It is slightly sad that guys like Pedroia didn't attend, but my philosophy is that you honor people while they are alive. Friendship, honesty, connection, etc., the implication of this story--no, of the hyping around this story--is that the Sox players are such horrible people that they don't even care when someone dies. First, that's absurd. Second, it is only possible because the team sucks and fans already have drawn conclusions about the character of these guys. I wish the team had more people who had traditional leadership qualities; specifically, that higher level of leadership where actions are exemplary on AND off the field. Going to a funeral when your organization implies that a showing from players is important is just something you should do, but overall this is an overblown smearing piece that only piles on a team that is at its lowest point in many years. I'm with Emmz here, for the most part.

The fans also soak up the media's fervor and reinforce the way the media behaves. They go to games, but they also glob onto the media. I'm not implicating you, a700, so no need to get defensive. I'm not saying ALL fans are perpetuating it, but enough are doing it that stories like "Clay Buchholz seen at fundraiser" get a few days worth of press. It is absurd. As for "the only positive thing about this franchise" being the loyal fan bases, I would also say that having an ownership who is willing to spend $170m+ is a positive thing. It is easy to take for granted, but plenty of other rich owners don't spend that much on their teams.

Absolutely right. Synthetic testosterone can be tested for. MLB just doesn't do it until after a first positive. So players who can keep their levels under the allowed limit (still bordering on super-manish T levels) get away scott free. I'm confident that many players are still doing this, probably including a few on the Sox.

Perhaps they are trying to get fans to not hate their very expensive player. Lord knows that as soon as he goes under the knife the calls will be "Crawford is injured, he sucks! What a waste of a player! What a waste of a human!" By keeping him in the lineup the now predominant and ravenous fan base has one less criticism to level at him. Look folks, the Sox are just treading water right now. Not in the sense of "if I tread long enough I'm sure a lifeboat will come" but in the sense of "s***, I just fell out of the Titanic and I will die if I don't tread water..." It's a subtle difference, but it is real. They are under attack from all sides and have curled up in the fetal position and are hoping that the abuse (from other teams pummeling them, from fans, from media, from their own players leaking s***) will just stop. Once it stops they can start being rational again. Fans and media think that they have a god given right to a contender every single season. They aren't getting it and, feeling neglected or mistreated, they are unleashing on the team at a very high level. I think it is counter productive, but I understand the anger.