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What do you want? blowing two games is multiple losses in September.

You are right. Papelbon was perfect. His two blown saves against Baltimore in an 8 day period are completely overshadowed by the rest of his performances. It's almost as if he wasn't the one standing on the mound in the biggest game of the season when they lost. Reading your words almost makes it as if he didn't give up two two-out doubles and a game winning single in the last game of the year to finalize the biggest collapse in baseball history. I felt nervous when the guy pitched. Other people I know felt nervous when the guy pitched. You didn't. Yippee.

I hope people remember how Hanley Ramirez's progress went. He was so highly touted that when he got to higher levels of the minors and had a mediocre season (.720 OPS at AA at 22) people lost sight of what he could become a bit. Xander is SO young that he might still take 4-6 years to reach his ceiling. People have to be patient with that and the Sox could end up with a Longoria/Hanley type talent.

Has anyone heard anything at all about how Mark Prior is looking in AAA? They have been sticking with him for a few months now, so perhaps there's SOMETHING there (given how quickly players like him sometimes disappear). Anyway, he was an absolute beast back in the day. Wouldn't it be awesome if he worked his way back to 2003 form? We can dream, right?

Yeah, in terms of depth the farm system isn't the problem. Somehow they haven't been able to produce pitching like other teams do of late, but their positional depth is really quite good moving forward.

It was obvious that his chances of making the bigs was over, but he worked his ass off to make something of himself. I will be wishing him the best and a healthy life.

Jung, your post boils down to the rotation needing a leader. They need a leader who can also perform. What they need, then, is an ace. As noted in other threads, aces come to teams in one of three ways generally: 1. Drafted 2. Traded for explicitly (targeted, willingness to overpay if needed, throwing prospects and caution to the wind) 3. Signed as a FA There simply aren't many guys in the top tier of pitchers who were acquired in other ways (such as: picked up off scrap heap, traded for as smaller part of bigger deal, etc.,) We have effectively said that #3 is a dangerous road to go down. #2 is rarely possible: Greinke, Halladay, Haren are examples, but who is the next available ace caliber pitcher who wouldn't need to be signed at a FA-sized contract very soon afterward? Can't think of one. #1 takes a long time. Matt Barnes is the next possiblity for the Sox, but he won't be contributing until 2014 IMO. So while we wait for the next golden arm/golden opportunity, they have the choice of sitting around and essentially wasting the prime years of some pretty special/expensive players, or looking for some good #2s who might make them a decent enough team to contend now. For the right price, I'd be okay with making those moves. Just don't trade young pitching.

Try to move him to the OF? Wait 3 years until he's ready for Boston and assess where Middlebrooks is then?

I don't really agree, for the reasons stated above and with the shared caveat that you and I don't know what the hell is going on. The problem is either one of 25 players all being jerks, or of a manager (who admittedly has a reputation for being tough to get along with) coming in and overplaying his hand. Ockham's razor tells me that V overplayed his hand, ownership overplayed their hand, and the players are leading a quiet revolt against him because of it. There are SO MANY managers who would come in and not be a "players manager" but not be Bobby V's style of accountability either. I think those are the guys Ben had selected and LL said "nope".

Yes. Your team would really have to be in outstanding order to make it work... or your pockets would just need to be extra deep.

I'm resurrecting this thread. Edes article. Damning stuff: This article is like the September ones all over again. At least it isn't collapse related, but it's pretty bad: http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8162350/boston-red-sox-manager-bobby-valentine-seems-encountering-problems-all-directions Holy s***. I understand Valentine apologists wanting this guy to get a fair shot. I wish him well too and think he deserves to be treated fairly. However, something is seriously broken here. Anyone who thinks this is just a matter of a bunch of selfish players SIMULTANEOUSLY STOPPING TO TALK TO THE MANAGER WITH OTHER COACHES DOING THE SAME THING is probably pretty far off. There is something about Bobby V that strikes at the heart of trust and that is at least contributing to some level of dysfunction here. I'm not saying he's a terrible guy or that he's even done anything overtly wrong, but the culture of this team is not even slightly leaning in his direction and that's a huge, huge problem.

I didn't make any predictions. I don't really like predictions. That said, I was going to start a "Mea Culpa" thread (my mistake or my fault for those of you not fluent in Latin) because whether I made predictions or not, I made points and many were wrong. I was wrong because: * The team is not doing fine * The pitching staff (starting pitching) is pathetic. I still feel correct for thinking they didn't need to address it during the offseason with a guy like Oswalt, but Gio Gonzalez looks damn nice right now. Ultimately, even a good team like the Red Sox has a limit in resources. Once you've bought the limo, the nice tux, dinner, drinks, spilled a drink on yourself, rented the replacement tux, paid to have the limo filled with gas, replaced the limo with a backup limo when it caught on fire, rented a third tux from the fire incident, hired an expensive call-girl because your date left you, and then paid for parking, you really don't have a choice but to stay at the dance. You can't go do anything more fun, you're out of money and, frankly, just beat up. The parking put it over the top (f***ing Lackey). * The Bard to the rotation experiment: fail. * Theo left the team in a mess. Whether this was because of his approach to baseball (I don't think it was) or his approach to management (and response to pressures from superiors, which I suspect) doesn't really matter. The team is a s*** sandwich. Things I feel somewhat vindicated about: * The closer position seems to have sorted itself out and Ben C has done a nice job with the bullpen. * Signing Papelbon to a huge deal wouldn't have helped make this team much better this year, and certainly wouldn't have helped with their resource issues in the long-run. * The farm system IS producing players who help at the MLB level, and they aren't just helping relative to replacement players. Some of these guys have been really helpful and show lots of promise. The farm system is also super deep, capable of landing a significant piece or two if they need it to. The thing I don't know about one way or another: Bobby Valentine. Who the hell is this guy? What is he doing, exactly? Sometimes I find myself really liking him. Sometimes I find myself wondering if he's the biggest douche in the world. Is he brilliant? Overwhelmed? Stupid? He's a complete enigma. If nothing else I guess I can say that I WANT him to have success because, even if he's a douche, no douche deserves to have the type of catastrophe that this team occasionally borders on. Anyway, here's the reason I wanted to make the Mea Culpa thread (not just to put my failures out for public display): * One positive of this shitstorm season is that I think the participants on this board have actually grown considerably more tolerant and less reactionary toward each other. Maybe some people aren't around as much, but it seems to me that just about EVERYONE who made bold predictions last year has been wrong. We also can all see the writing on the wall: it is going to be a hard road to get this team back to prominence and there will be lots to talk about. When there's moves and ballgames to analyze this board can be a great place. When we're all trying to figure out which player it was who released the smelliest fart in our face and none of the players are taking accountability, of course we will be at each others throats. Anyway, cheers to all of you for sticking it out through some tough s*** and actually moving MORE toward baseball related discussion and further from personal s***. I thought this board really sucked for awhile last off-season, but everyone seems to have taken a step back. 2nd half: Go Sox!

The thing is, though (to partially counter my own argument above) what the Sox really need is #2/#3s who pitching like f***ing #2/#3s on competitive teams. If they had 5 guys pitching like #2/#3s right now they would at least be in 2nd place. Instead they have s***, s***, s***, Mediocre, Mediocre. It would be much better to have Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. If they think that Garza can be decent and give quality innings and keep them in games and not give up 4 runs in the first inning, then perhaps I would be okay with it... assuming there's no prospects I'm attached to who go back in the deal (fat chance).

Lester tweeted that he loves playing in Boston, wants to finish his career there. Probably in response to Gammons. Honestly, nobody is "being happy in Boston" right now. Wouldn't we have a big problem with someone who was happy right now?

I just don't see Garza being the answer, unless they lose Beckett or something. He has the potential to slide right into the "better than average but not good enough" category. He has a 92 ERA+ right now, though his WHIP is good. A couple things with Garza: * I like his toughness and he's not as douchy as Lackey * I don't think the Sox would be able to afford an extension unless they move another pitcher. He's a FA before the 2014 season, which unfortunately is the season before Lackey, Beckett and Lester are all FA's. Not a great fit. * If he doesn't push them over the top (solidly make the playoffs after playing .650+ ball the 2nd half) then he's basically a waste of a prospect, IMO. Also, I gagged a bit when I read Cecchini and Lavarnway. Think about how much those guys could contribute for the Sox over their 6 owned seasons. Cecchini could be getting the same type of hype that Middlebrooks is getting right now. His power will develop, he's got a good eye, better speed and is a good athlete, etc.,

All this talk about trading for Upton and signing Hamels and trading Beckett and Lester... I thought we were just talking about not getting into these big FA deals and reserving our prospects for the future? First, Upton will take more than current-Lester. I suspect the Sox could get him, but it would cost a fair amount. I like Upton and would definitely roll the dice on him during the prime of his career (24 years old) but man he would deplete a farm system. It would be a huge risk. And he's not exactly cheap (~10m, 14m, 14m next three years). Pumpsie and I have actually found our first common ground recently: don't trade away pitching prospects. Go get pitching prospects. The Sox have to find a way to have a sustainable rotation that isn't bloated with overpriced meatheads. Trading Beckett would help with that, as will letting Dice-K go, but they should sacrifice "big-nameness" for payroll flexibility and the ability to bounce back from injury as a team. So that tells me: don't trade Lester. It seems reactionary to me. This is a bad year for him. He's not hurt, his stuff isn't worse, he's just a bit lost on the mound. There's a very good chance he pops out of it. He's 28 years old, not that expensive, and durable. Pitchers have bad years. Who was the 28 year old pitcher who put up a 6.29 ERA, 1.521 WHIP, only to turn around and win the Cy Young the following year? Cliff Lee, 2007. He was terrible. One of the worst pitchers in the league. In fact, through his age 28 season, Lee had a career 4.64 ERA and 1.375 WHIP. Baseball works in mysterious ways and as frustrated as we are with him now, would anyone be shocked if Lester were an all-star again next year? We know how good he really is. ... back to injury discussion.

Yeah, except when he has 75% of the year Reddick is having he will do it for a team that matters.

I'm the resident glass half-full guy, but I give them a D. The half-full part is not giving them an F. I still think this is an immensely talented team, but the combination of injuries, apparently not playing through injuries, and inexplicably bad performances from Pedroia, Gonzalez, Lester and Beckett make me want to give them a poor score.

I've been agreeing with you a lot recently. This is the time to throw the deck chairs (even the really nice ones) overboard. The vessel will still float, and the offseason will afford them a chance to do some moderate rebuilding and get guys healthy/sorted out, but there's no need to have guys like Ross, Ortiz, Sweeney, Aviles, probably Beckett (though not sure who takes him), maybe Nava (if someone will buy high), Shoppach on the team. They have depth behind all of those guys. Let's say they sold all those guys. Here's the team without them (just for fun): Ellsbury Crawford Pedroia Gonzalez Middlebrooks Saltalamacchia Lavarnway Kalish Iglesias Is there any reason to think that offense couldn't put some runs on the board and at least produce enough to play .500 ball, regardless of the pitching staff? If they moved Beckett: Lester Buchholz Doubront Morales Cook Looks at least decent to me. None of this accounts for ANY of the return they got for my (proposed) Ross, Ortiz, Sweeney, Aviles, Beckett, Shoppach trades (which would yield a fair amount in a sellers market). That team above would be watchable for me (hell, Iglesias in and of himself will keep me watching this team's defensive innings for years to come). Obviously the big sell would be Ellsbury, and I can't see the Sox having a very long "selling" window with him. They either sell him soon or they will probably hold on to him for another run next year and hope he yields draft picks. If they are sellers at this point next year we should be prepared to find some bald/suicidal owners and maybe a fired LL. Personally, I would like to see them try to move Ellsbury and lock up Cody Ross for a few years at a reasonable price, but Ross is likely to want to test FA again and Ellsbury's injury prevents him from being a viable trade piece unless they sell a bit low.

Quote doesn't bother me. Isn't there at least a SMALL chance that Valentine's comments were actually out of line? Don't let the relative shittiness of the current Sox team cloud your view. Most teams and most players wouldn't sit well with a new manager openly questioning the desire and focus of an established team leader who has 2 WS rings. Pedroia said what was on his mind, it wasn't in prepared remarks, but it was heartfelt and, frankly, watching him defend Youkilis was refreshing. At the time people were chalking it up to Bobby V potentially trying to build team unity by using some reverse psychology to piss the players off and have them unite together. All talk of V being some sort of group dynamics mastermind have gone out the window. It appears that he is just as over his head with this group as Tito was. I hope I'm wrong.

Both Mortenson and Melancon are under team control for 6 years. If one of them turns out to be a good reliever the moves would have been worth it. When you're talking about improving the pitching staff you simply can't take the smaller moves and throw them away. A good staff is one that is filled with marquee players and a number of guys who are good but you're not sure how they got there, or how good they are. Everyone is calling for the Sox to be more like the Rays. I would argue that going out of their way to get arms like Mortenson and Melancon and sticking with guys like Miller and Padilla is much closer to the TB model than hiring established relievers and hoping their volatility doesn't catch them on a downswing. If the Sox are smart they will have a bunch of viable, cheep arms. If the Sox had signed Madson like so many here (myself included) were calling for, they would be even more up a creek than they are.