2024 Red Sox Defense

[Elktonnick]

Teaching disability?????? Are you seriously saying that all minor leaguers--and major leaguers--should be equal in ability simply because they are taught correctly?

 

It's true that Ted Williams was a great student of hitting, but he also was a terrific hitter before he was 20.

What I am saying is that Red Sox are not teaching.defense properly. Since Betts broke in, they have not produced any outstanding infielders. What I am saying unlike the Orioles for example which used to be famous for the Orioles way the Red Sox lower minors suck at teaching baseball.

[Elktonnick]

Re Ted Williams home run Fenway pary had a different configuration then. When they enlarged the press box and raised its height it cut the impact of the wind blowing out to right field. Furthermore Micky Mantle has documented hitting homers in other parks longer than Williems 1946 homer. So Williams home run distance is not that exceptional. Also Williams had better hitting mechanics than Casas. Williams had tremendous eyesight wrists and forearms. Williams eyesight meant he made exceptional contact and his wrists and forearms generated tremendous power through the zone.

[moonslav59]

What I am saying is that Red Sox are not teaching.defense properly. Since Betts broke in, they have not produced any outstanding infielders. What I am saying unlike the Orioles for example which used to be famous for the Orioles way the Red Sox lower minors suck at teaching baseball.

 

You may be right, but it could just be we never add defensively gifted prospects to the farm.

 

It looks like we did okay with Wong, who seemed to be destined to a position change.

Rafaela is a top defender, despite the 3 early errors in '24. He's played numerous positions, too, so that is a factor.

 

It is likely a combination of defensively unskilled players and not the greatest coaches for defense.

[notin]

What I am saying is that Red Sox are not teaching.defense properly. Since Betts broke in, they have not produced any outstanding infielders. What I am saying unlike the Orioles for example which used to be famous for the Orioles way the Red Sox lower minors suck at teaching baseball.

 

 

Not produced any outstanding infielders since Betts? What’s the criteria here?

 

The reality is they’ve actually produced several infielders who have been solid to above defenders since Betts. Many were traded away, including Javier Guerra, Santiago Espinal and Yoan Moncada (who scores well on many defensive metrics, surprisingly.)

 

There were probably several other talented defenders whose offensive abilities kept them from advancing as well (CJ Chatham?)

 

It seems presumptuous to say they don’t teach defense simply because Devers and Casas aren’t good at it…

[Elktonnick]

Not produced any outstanding infielders since Betts? What’s the criteria here?

 

The reality is they’ve actually produced several infielders who have been solid to above defenders since Betts. Many were traded away, including Javier Guerra, Santiago Espinal and Yoan Moncada (who scores well on many defensive metrics, surprisingly.)

 

There were probably several other talented defenders whose offensive abilities kept them from advancing as well (CJ Chatham?)

 

It seems presumptuous to say they don’t teach defense simply because Devers and Casas aren’t good at it…

Not at all.

[notin]

Not at all.

 

Sure it is.

 

Offense has always ruled baseball. Owners figured out over a century ago that fans don’t pay to watch players field. If you can hit, you’re more likely to make the majors than if you can field.

 

But fielding is a unique skill set, and not one everyone has. A lot of fans think it’s easy or easily learned, which is not necessarily true. Even on this thread, someone said something about “the Sox don’t have infield practice anymore,” as if all it took to becoming a great fielder was repetitive practice drills.

 

Ted Williams once said the hardest thing in sports is hitting a round ball with a round bat squarely. Yet Williams mastered hitting like no other, but was fairly questionable as an outfielder. You’d think he’d call the activity he found more challenging to be the difficult one.

 

But he didn’t. And while hitting is tough, so is doing the complex math in your head to extrapolate the curved path of s flyball until it intersects with the plane of the outfielder. As bizarre as that sounds, that’s what it takes to catch a fly ball. And when we say an outfielder “takes bad routes” or “gets bad jumps”, what we mean is he cannot do that math in his head fast enough.

 

It’s not just simple coaching and teaching. Just like hitting, there has to be a foundation to work with.

 

Is it possible the Sox don’t coach defense well? Sure. But the evidence has to be diverting other than “name one outstanding infielder since Betts.”

 

By the way, Betts learned to become an elite outfielder really fast. Don’t you think the Sox developmental coaches had a hand in that?

[Elktonnick]

Sure it is.

 

Offense has always ruled baseball. Owners figured out over a century ago that fans don’t pay to watch players field. If you can hit, you’re more likely to make the majors than if you can field.

 

But fielding is a unique skill set, and not one everyone has. A lot of fans think it’s easy or easily learned, which is not necessarily true. Even on this thread, someone said something about “the Sox don’t have infield practice anymore,” as if all it took to becoming a great fielder was repetitive practice drills.

 

Ted Williams once said the hardest thing in sports is hitting a round ball with a round bat squarely. Yet Williams mastered hitting like no other, but was fairly questionable as an outfielder. You’d think he’d call the activity he found more challenging to be the difficult one.

 

But he didn’t. And while hitting is tough, so is doing the complex math in your head to extrapolate the curved path of s flyball until it intersects with the plane of the outfielder. As bizarre as that sounds, that’s what it takes to catch a fly ball. And when we say an outfielder “takes bad routes” or “gets bad jumps”, what we mean is he cannot do that math in his head fast enough.

 

It’s not just simple coaching and teaching. Just like hitting, there has to be a foundation to work with.

 

Is it possible the Sox don’t coach defense well? Sure. But the evidence has to be diverting other than “name one outstanding infielder since Betts.”

 

By the way, Betts learned to become an elite outfielder really fast. Don’t you think the Sox developmental coaches had a hand in that?

Defense is a skill that can be taught. The RedSox aren't teaching that skill to their minor leaguers very well. They are not good at developing their defensive skills as they did years past.

[moonslav59]

IMO, defense seems more instinctual and not something that is learned as much as pitching and hitting. Of course, there are many examples of players who vastly improved on D, over time, but I think it is more about inherent skills and ability than something that can be improved upon with good coaching- like hitting and pitching.

 

Just my take.

[notin]

Defense is a skill that can be taught. The RedSox aren't teaching that skill to their minor leaguers very well. They are not good at developing their defensive skills as they did years past.

 

Can hitting and pitching be taught?

[notin]

IMO, defense seems more instinctual and not something that is learned as much as pitching and hitting. Of course, there are many examples of players who vastly improved on D, over time, but I think it is more about inherent skills and ability than something that can be improved upon with good coaching- like hitting and pitching.

 

Just my take.

 

 

I’m sure you can find examples of hitters and pitchers who improved over time as well…

[Elktonnick]

Can hitting and pitching be taught?

Yes of course. Coaching expands on the innate talents that young athletes have. Baseball is not an easy sport. It takes years of practice to hone skills. Many natural athletes were ruined by poor coaching, as the reverse is true many were improved and made into stars by great coaches.

[moonslav59]

I’m sure you can find examples of hitters and pitchers who improved over time as well…

 

Yes, more than fielders. That was my point.

 

This also assumes players getting better or not is often due to good, okay or bad coaching, I guess.

[Elktonnick]

IMO, defense seems more instinctual and not something that is learned as much as pitching and hitting. Of course, there are many examples of players who vastly improved on D, over time, but I think it is more about inherent skills and ability than something that can be improved upon with good coaching- like hitting and pitching.

 

Just my take.

Depending on the position, baseball defense is about the footwork. That largely does not come naturally and has to be taught and practiced until it becomes instinctual.

Devers is a good example. A high percentage of his errors are throwing errors because his feet were not properly positioned

[moonslav59]

Depending on the position, baseball defense is about the footwork. That largely does not come naturally and has to be taught and practiced until it becomes instinctual.

Devers is a good example. A high percentage of his errors are throwing errors because his feet were not properly positioned

 

I'm never going to argue the Sox have great defensive-teaching coaches, in their system. That would be very hard to provide evidence in support. I get your point.

 

I'm just not so sure the main reason we've had poor defense, in the past few years is due to poor or not so good coaching.

 

Some students just can't be reached. Some students lack the basic skills and ability to learn as much as others. That could be a bigger factor- or not.

 

IMO, it's been a combination of acquiring players without foundational defensive skills and not very good coaching on D, or just a lack of focus on improving D over O.

[dgalehouse]

Sure it is.

 

Offense has always ruled baseball. Owners figured out over a century ago that fans don’t pay to watch players field. If you can hit, you’re more likely to make the majors than if you can field.

 

But fielding is a unique skill set, and not one everyone has. A lot of fans think it’s easy or easily learned, which is not necessarily true. Even on this thread, someone said something about “the Sox don’t have infield practice anymore,” as if all it took to becoming a great fielder was repetitive practice drills.

 

Ted Williams once said the hardest thing in sports is hitting a round ball with a round bat squarely. Yet Williams mastered hitting like no other, but was fairly questionable as an outfielder. You’d think he’d call the activity he found more challenging to be the difficult one.

 

But he didn’t. And while hitting is tough, so is doing the complex math in your head to extrapolate the curved path of s flyball until it intersects with the plane of the outfielder. As bizarre as that sounds, that’s what it takes to catch a fly ball. And when we say an outfielder “takes bad routes” or “gets bad jumps”, what we mean is he cannot do that math in his head fast enough.

 

It’s not just simple coaching and teaching. Just like hitting, there has to be a foundation to work with.

 

Is it possible the Sox don’t coach defense well? Sure. But the evidence has to be diverting other than “name one outstanding infielder since Betts.”

 

By the way, Betts learned to become an elite outfielder really fast. Don’t you think the Sox developmental coaches had a hand in that?

 

You can improve at most things with practice. Fielding is no exception. To discount the importance of practice is wrong.

[Elktonnick]

I'm never going to argue the Sox have great defensive-teaching coaches, in their system. That would be very hard to provide evidence in support. I get your point.

 

I'm just not so sure the main reason we've had poor defense, in the past few years is due to poor or not so good coaching.

 

Some students just can't be reached. Some students lack the basic skills and ability to learn as much as others. That could be a bigger factor- or not.

 

IMO, it's been a combination of acquiring players without foundational defensive skills and not very good coaching on D, or just a lack of focus on improving D over O.

 

I do not think I ever said it was exclusively bad coaching. But I think bad coaching is a significant element. I have maintained for some time that Red Sox entire approach in many areas has been fundamentally flawed. We all saw pitching as one example which they are now trying to address.

Defense is clearly another. Quite frankly I do not think the Red Sox have an organizational wide philosophy as to Defense. We have seen the turnover in the coaching ranks in recent years which appears to indicate turmoil in the lower ranks.

I am sure that FO bureaucracy has all these little freedoms which probably make organizational alignment difficult.

[moonslav59]

I do not think I ever said it was exclusively bad coaching. But I think bad coaching is a significant element. I have maintained for some time that Red Sox entire approach in many areas has been fundamentally flawed. We all saw pitching as one example which they are now trying to address.

Defense is clearly another. Quite frankly I do not think the Red Sox have an organizational wide philosophy as to Defense. We have seen the turnover in the coaching ranks in recent years which appears to indicate turmoil in the lower ranks.

I am sure that FO bureaucracy has all these little freedoms which probably make organizational alignment difficult.

 

I did not mean to imply you claimed it was exclusively bad coaching. I do not think we have emphasized defense, enough in the minors or majors. I tend to think we neglect defensive skills when acquiring players- prospects and vets, so we start off below the curve.

 

Again, I am not disagreeing with you, but maybe I give more weight to aspects other than coaching than you do. Maybe.

 

[notin]

You can improve at most things with practice. Fielding is no exception. To discount the importance of practice is wrong.

 

Not what was said. Although there seems to be a school of thought that defense is solely leaned by practice while hitting and pitching are innate abilities.

 

My point was to say the Sox don’t teach coaching because they have not produced any great infielders once Betts is just flat out incorrect on multiple levels.

[notin]

I do not think I ever said it was exclusively bad coaching. But I think bad coaching is a significant element. I have maintained for some time that Red Sox entire approach in many areas has been fundamentally flawed. We all saw pitching as one example which they are now trying to address.

Defense is clearly another. Quite frankly I do not think the Red Sox have an organizational wide philosophy as to Defense. We have seen the turnover in the coaching ranks in recent years which appears to indicate turmoil in the lower ranks.

I am sure that FO bureaucracy has all these little freedoms which probably make organizational alignment difficult.

 

I don’t know how their coaching of defense is in the minors, but what I do know is what you’re calling proof simply isn’t proof. Nothing personal, but it just leaves too many other possibilities and only accounts for a very small sample…

[dgalehouse]

Not what was said. Although there seems to be a school of thought that defense is solely leaned by practice while hitting and pitching are innate abilities.

 

My point was to say the Sox don’t teach coaching because they have not produced any great infielders once Betts is just flat out incorrect on multiple levels.

 

My feeling is that more infield practice would be beneficial. But I really don't know how much they practice right now. My guess is that it is not enough.

[notin]

I did not mean to imply you claimed it was exclusively bad coaching. I do not think we have emphasized defense, enough in the minors or majors. I tend to think we neglect defensive skills when acquiring players- prospects and vets, so we start off below the curve.

 

Again, I am not disagreeing with you, but maybe I give more weight to aspects other than coaching than you do. Maybe.

 

 

 

I think the farm system is a giant multilevel organization that attempts to bring in a high volume of players each year through drafting and IFA, etc. and through attrition whittles them down to a handful of players each year who graduate to MLB. And if any of these human beings are deficient in any aspect of baseball, it all gets blamed on the farm system., coaching, and the FO, and whoever else comes up.

 

Even if the process is perfect, which it likely isn’t, that doesn’t mean every product coming out will be perfect…

[notin]

My feeling is that more infield practice would be beneficial. But I really don't know how much they practice right now. My guess is that it is not enough.

 

I don’t know if that’s true or not. Some people just lack the hand-eye coordination. Or can’t get a good read. And just lack the skills to improve upon. It’s like hitting. You can spend hours upon hours in the cage and get markedly better. But will you be good enough for MLB? How many more hours will it take until you are?

 

Practice makes progress, but contrary to popular belief, it doesn’t make perfection…

[Maxbialystock]

I do not think I ever said it was exclusively bad coaching. But I think bad coaching is a significant element. I have maintained for some time that Red Sox entire approach in many areas has been fundamentally flawed. We all saw pitching as one example which they are now trying to address.

Defense is clearly another. Quite frankly I do not think the Red Sox have an organizational wide philosophy as to Defense. We have seen the turnover in the coaching ranks in recent years which appears to indicate turmoil in the lower ranks.

I am sure that FO bureaucracy has all these little freedoms which probably make organizational alignment difficult.

 

WS wins in 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 say the Sox are not fundamentally flawed.

 

By the way, I love the Rays systematic approach to baseball. My guess is they are about as good as it gets in drilling on the fundamentals. But they've yet to win a WS.

[Elktonnick]

I don’t know how their coaching of defense is in the minors, but what I do know is what you’re calling proof simply isn’t proof. Nothing personal, but it just leaves too many other possibilities and only accounts for a very small sample…

No The minors is where player development is supposed to occur. You are enamored with small samples Given the number of minor league teams in the Red Sox organization and number players filtering through it is not a small sample if they are not producing good defensive players which they are not.

[Elktonnick]

WS wins in 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 say the Sox are not fundamentally flawed.

 

By the way, I love the Rays systematic approach to baseball. My guess is they are about as good as it gets in drilling on the fundamentals. But they've yet to win a WS.

Those wins were during the DD Epstein et al eras. We are discussing AD.

[moonslav59]

Not what was said. Although there seems to be a school of thought that defense is solely leaned by practice while hitting and pitching are innate abilities.

 

My point was to say the Sox don’t teach coaching because they have not produced any great infielders once Betts is just flat out incorrect on multiple levels.

 

Maybe, I'm biased. I grew up playing a lot of baseball all the way through college and some afterwards. I practiced, a lot. It seemed like defense came naturally to me, as well as baserunning and baserunning instincts. I did practice defense, a lot, but I practiced hitting way more and never got good at it. I walked enough to not be too bad on offense, but I never learned how to hit. Maybe, I never had a good hitting coach. I don't remember anyone coaching me on D, and I think because they realized I did not need any coaching on D.

[Elktonnick]

WS wins in 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 say the Sox are not fundamentally flawed.

 

By the way, I love the Rays systematic approach to baseball. My guess is they are about as good as it gets in drilling on the fundamentals. But they've yet to win a WS.

 

I don’t know if that’s true or not. Some people just lack the hand-eye coordination. Or can’t get a good read. And just lack the skills to improve upon. It’s like hitting. You can spend hours upon hours in the cage and get markedly better. But will you be good enough for MLB? How many more hours will it take until you are?

 

Practice makes progress, but contrary to popular belief, it doesn’t make perfection…

 

Golf pros disagree. All they do is practice.

Mlb players could spend less time in the weight room and more time in defensive practice.

[moonslav59]

No The minors is where player development is supposed to occur. You are enamored with small samples Given the number of minor league teams in the Red Sox organization and number players filtering through it is not a small sample if they are not producing good defensive players which they are not.

 

It's all relative, though, right?

 

It seems like defense has dropped off a cliff all across MLB, since I was a kid. That being said, the Sox have been below average more times than not in recent years. However, the last 20 years, fangraphs has us ranked 11th. DRS 11th. UZR/150 4th!

 

Perhaps surprisingly, since 2019 (5 years,) we look to be maybe 18th to 24th, if you average 4 numbers (I don't count Flg%.)

 

11th UZR/150

20th DRS

21st fangraphs

28th Flg%

30th OAA

 

[Elktonnick]

I certainly agree that defense is being under stressed in MLB. Personally I think there is a lot wrong with today's game. They over emphasize raw power and velocity. I do not think this approach is sustainable over the long run. Injuries will continue to increase. The great ballplayers of the past emphasized flexibility. My father was a long time baseball coach who turned down a minor league contract with the Braves in the 30s because he did not want to leave his hometown.

He would not let his players swim or lift weights. He did not want them to become muscle bound. That was the philosophy back then.

[notin]

Golf pros disagree. All they do is practice.

Mlb players could spend less time in the weight room and more time in defensive practice.

 

And everyone who practices golf becomes a professional, right?

 

I agree the weight room should be limited, although I don’t know how much it gets used. And just because it gets used didn’t mean team don’t stress defense.

 

But you’re starting to move the goalposts. Your original point was the Sox were not teaching defense properly, and supported with their lack of outstanding infielders since Betts. Now you’re moving on to weight rooms and overall training regimens.

Edited April 14, 2024 by notin