2018 Starting Rotation Mega Thread

[cp176]

Exactly. Short anecdote:

I was in a card shop in Colorado some years ago where some teenagers were saying that they 'didn't like' some certain players.

The man who ran the shop then said told them that he likes to reserve judgement on that until he's actually met them.

 

Good one - So many people just rush to judgement about everything that happens without truly knowing what actually happens. I do get it though. This is a forum where everyone can and should express their opinion. It keeps things moving. I also think that it is important to at least try to understand that some people's opinions on really important issues can be shaped by experiences that they have witnessed or personally have lived through. I know that mine have. Nothing wrong with that.

[cp176]

I would hope that whether it was PED's or DV, rumors alone would carry the same weight or lack thereof.

 

And what PED suspensions have been issued based only on rumors?

 

 

I think that this would be a classic case of apples to oranges. There are plenty of people out here who have accepted the fact that PED use was sadly a part of the game. Most of us want the game cleaned up. I don't think that there are enough games in a year to make up for a proven domestic abuser. With respect to Wright, I might be going out on a limb here but I would like to think that people have carefully looked into his case and do in fact know a lot more about what happened than anyone here does. I don't know him - I don't know his wife or family - I feel very strongly about domestic abuse for very good reasons but I won't be judging anyone without knowing the whole story.

[mvp 78]

Good one - So many people just rush to judgement about everything that happens without truly knowing what actually happens. I do get it though. This is a forum where everyone can and should express their opinion. It keeps things moving. I also think that it is important to at least try to understand that some people's opinions on really important issues can be shaped by experiences that they have witnessed or personally have lived through. I know that mine have. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I agree. The only reason we were talking about it all over again was because someone called the suspension "bogus." Honestly, MLB had more info about the situation than any of us do. If they suspended him for 15 games, it was probably for good reason.

[harmony]

Here's what bothers me.

 

If Wright had been accused of using PED with no more evidence than rumors on an online article, people would be condemning him, supporting his suspension, accepting his release or DFA. And that behavior (PED usage) doesn't hurt anyone except Wright himself (maybe).

 

why are we harsher on PED usage than domestic violence? This is not directed at any individual, but on us all as baseball fans as a whole. With DV, we want proof and knowledge of the incident. With PEDs, we're more than ok with rumors leading to suspensions and bans...

A PED suspension typically is handed down after a failed drug test, not on the basis of rumors. A player could contest the validity of the drug test, or whether he knowingly consumed a banned substance, but the drug test represents more than a rumor.

 

Unlike a domestic violence suspension, the PED suspension is rarely accompanied by a criminal investigation and possible prosecution. The PED suspension may be the only consequence the player suffers (other than loss of endorsements, etc.).

 

I suspect the Red Sox are off the hook for Wright's roughly $100,000 prorated salary for the 15-game suspension. Perhaps the Sox should donate that $100,000 to a program that provides services to victims of domestic violence.

[cp176]

I agree. The only reason we were talking about it all over again was because someone called the suspension "bogus." Honestly, MLB had more info about the situation than any of us do. If they suspended him for 15 games, it was probably for good reason.

 

thanks for posting this - I'm going to try to be serious here for just a minute. I have been reading your postings now for quite some time and I think I know how you feel with respect to some of the social issues that we face today such as domestic violence. I'm proud of you (might not mean much but I am older than you) for voicing your opinions the way you do. This particular one is very important to me as well. I'm not being callous if it seems that I don't want a domestic abuser punished more severely. I do - In some of these situations we just aren't privy to all the info. If any convicted domestic abuser was never again allowed to play ml baseball, I would be very pleased.

Now back to baseball!

[mvp 78]

Now back to baseball!

 

Just Under 26 hours to go!

[harmony]

thanks for posting this - I'm going to try to be serious here for just a minute. I have been reading your postings now for quite some time and I think I know how you feel with respect to some of the social issues that we face today such as domestic violence. I'm proud of you (might not mean much but I am older than you) for voicing your opinions the way you do. This particular one is very important to me as well. I'm not being callous if it seems that I don't want a domestic abuser punished more severely. I do - In some of these situations we just aren't privy to all the info. If any convicted domestic abuser was never again allowed to play ml baseball, I would be very pleased.

Now back to baseball!

I too abhor domestic violence but my goal would be to protect the victim, the family and the general public. A lifetime ban might increase the chances of recidivism by adding stress to the offender's life.

 

In rare instances, the public shame is enough to change the behavior of a domestic abuser. More often, therapy is needed to address the issue. I am encouraged by the report that the "retirement" of the criminal charges requires that Steven Wright enter counseling with his wife. More serious punishments should be considered if the counseling does not change the behavior of the domestic abuser.

[cp176]

I too abhor domestic violence but my goal would be to protect the victim, the family and the general public. A lifetime ban might increase the chances of recidivism by adding stress to the offender's life.

 

In rare instances, the public shame is enough to change the behavior of a domestic abuser. More often, therapy is needed to address the issue. I am encouraged by the report that the "retirement" of the criminal charges requires that Steven Wright enter counseling with his wife. More serious punishments should be considered if the counseling does not change the behavior of the domestic abuser.

 

You bring up some very good points. My response might have seemed too simplistic and these types of cases are anything but simple. They are all different and all methods of protection as well as treatment have to be considered of course. All done for a while with this topic for me. Too depressing - BASEBALL!!!

[Kimmi]

By the same token one could easily argue that all Ben did was reap the benefits of what was left to him by Theo.

 

But it's not really fair to say that, about Ben or about Dombrowski either. Regardless of what was left to them, they each had to make their own moves.

 

Sure, but it's a lot easier to make those moves when the farm is stacked and the core players are young and set. That was not really the case when Ben became GM.

 

Additionally, Henry decided to open his wallet for Dombrowski to sign an aging pitcher to a huge contract, a luxury Ben didn't get.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm not impressed that Dombrowski was able to get Kimbrel or Sale or Price.

[Kimmi]

Exactly - It is why as a Red Sox fan, I am on the side of the current GM no matter who it might be. I admit though that I have gotten caught up in this discussion but it is primarily due to the fact that I don't understand the personal likes and dislikes that people have here about Boston's GMs in general. If I was on the inside, I probably would have some personal feelings but I am not so I really don't.

 

It has nothing to do with Ben or Dave personally. I don't dislike Dave. I don't know Dave. I dislike his team building approach.

[moonslav59]

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm not impressed that Dombrowski was able to get Kimbrel or Sale or Price.

 

Those three moves were largely thought of as overpays.

 

It doesn't take a genius to overpay.

 

When the overpay fails, though, the GM is labeled a fool.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure, but it's a lot easier to make those moves when the farm is stacked and the core players are young and set. That was not really the case when Ben became GM.

 

Additionally, Henry decided to open his wallet for Dombrowski to sign an aging pitcher to a huge contract, a luxury Ben didn't get.

 

 

Henry opened his wallet for Hanley, Panda, Porcello and Castillo before the 2015 season. Over $300 million. Ben was not being starved.

[Kimmi]

Henry opened his wallet for Hanley, Panda, Porcello and Castillo before the 2015 season. Over $300 million. Ben was not being starved.

 

No, Ben wasn't starved. That wasn't the point. I'm not impressed with Dombrowski being able to acquire Price. Any GM with an open wallet could have done that.

[Bellhorn04]

No, Ben wasn't starved. That wasn't the point. I'm not impressed with Dombrowski being able to acquire Price. Any GM with an open wallet could have done that.

 

So what exactly did Ben do that any other GM couldn't have done?

[Kimmi]

Those three moves were largely thought of as overpays.

 

It doesn't take a genius to overpay.

 

When the overpay fails, though, the GM is labeled a fool.

 

That's my feeling. How much genius does it take to get a player by overpaying for him? I could do that.

 

Find the next David Ortiz. Build a strong farm system. I would be impressed by that.

[Kimmi]

So what exactly did Ben do that any other GM couldn't have done?

 

Build a #1 farm system, while winning a World Series in the process.

[Kimmi]

Build a #1 farm system, while winning a World Series in the process.

 

And set the team up for the long haul. Until Dombrowski derailed that.

[Bellhorn04]

And set the team up for the long haul. Until Dombrowski derailed that.

 

Ben left the team with virtually no pitching and some crippling contracts. I think you highly overestimate the shape he left the team in.

[Kimmi]

Ben left the team with virtually no pitching and some crippling contracts. I think you highly overestimate the shape he left the team in.

 

I disagree that Ben left the team in such terrible shape. IMO, the team could have been a contender in both 2016 and 2017 without depleting the farm.

[Bellhorn04]

I disagree that Ben left the team in such terrible shape. IMO, the team could have been a contender in both 2016 and 2017 without depleting the farm.

 

I didn't say terrible shape. I said no pitching and a fair amount of dead money. Somebody had to acquire pitchers. Maybe if Ben was there he would have done the same things. But who knows? Ben made some odd and risky acquisitions. Even a signing like Victorino. Since we won it all in 2013 and he was a major contributor, it goes down as a good move, absolutely. If we hadn't won in 2013, maybe that move is viewed as a bad one. Same with re-signing Napoli. And then acquiring Miley and Masterson in 2015 to fill out a scary fivesome with Buch, Porcello and Joe Kelly.

 

Dombrowski is much more conservative with his acquisitions. That's probably why Henry went with him. He was a little tired of the risky acquisitions turning into dead money.

[Larry Cook]

Ben left the team with virtually no pitching and some crippling contracts. I think you highly overestimate the shape he left the team in.

 

I still think Larry was pulling the strings behind the curtain on the signing of Hanley and sandavol,

 

As for the pitching, well Ben does have to account for that.

 

The bottom line is we could have the most expensive wild card team ever this year.

[moonslav59]

I still think Larry was pulling the strings behind the curtain on the signing of Hanley and sandavol,

 

As for the pitching, well Ben does have to account for that.

 

The bottom line is we could have the most expensive wild card team ever this year.

 

In my opinion, Ben's purse string were more limited than DD's, but you are right, he wrongfully felt the 2015 pitching staff :was good enough" to compete.

 

I feel his plan was to finally solve the 3B issue we'd had for years and try to make up for a declining offense by signing Pablo & HRam. Had Pablo just repeated 2014 and HRam had his 2016 season in 2015, Ben might still have his job.

 

With just Scherzer and Lester on the market in 2015, I think Ben set his sights on 2016 for starting pitchers as that was set to be a saturated market that following year. I'm as certain as certain can be that he'd have signed someone (maybe Cueto or Greinke instead of Price) and traded some (blocked) prospects for pitching. Nobody knows for sure, but I do not think Ben was going to keep all his best prospects forever. For one thing, they couldn't all fit on the roster, and for another thing, he'd already proven he was willing to trade young players away (RDL & Webster for Miley and then Aro with Miley for Carson Smith).

 

Just my opinion.

[Bellhorn04]

For one thing, they couldn't all fit on the roster, and for another thing, he'd already proven he was willing to trade young players away (RDL & Webster for Miley and then Aro with Miley for Carson Smith).

 

It was DD who traded for Smith of course.

 

With all due respect to these fine fellows, RDL, Webster & Miley were all pretty much stiffs.

[cp176]

In my opinion, Ben's purse string were more limited than DD's, but you are right, he wrongfully felt the 2015 pitching staff :was good enough" to compete.

 

I feel his plan was to finally solve the 3B issue we'd had for years and try to make up for a declining offense by signing Pablo & HRam. Had Pablo just repeated 2014 and HRam had his 2016 season in 2015, Ben might still have his job.

 

With just Scherzer and Lester on the market in 2015, I think Ben set his sights on 2016 for starting pitchers as that was set to be a saturated market that following year. I'm as certain as certain can be that he'd have signed someone (maybe Cueto or Greinke instead of Price) and traded some (blocked) prospects for pitching. Nobody knows for sure, but I do not think Ben was going to keep all his best prospects forever. For one thing, they couldn't all fit on the roster, and for another thing, he'd already proven he was willing to trade young players away (RDL & Webster for Miley and then Aro with Miley for Carson Smith).

 

Just my opinion.

 

But Moon, I get the passion that goes along with the feelings of so many people here. I've always felt that passion in what we do keeps us moving and young. I just don't get the passion that is exhibited for both the like and dislike, and for some that is exactly what it is, for GM's. How does anyone here really truly know what Ben Cherington would have done with this team had he been able to stay? Do people really believe that LL was responsible for the bad free agent signings under Cherington. Is it fair to judge DD with respect to minor league developed based on something you think you might know based on his past. Personally I would not have minded Cherington staying. I truly do not care. I will say though that I have not disliked any of the moves DD has made to date. It took me a long time time as in years and years not just a couple to get sick of the moves made by "my" former NY Giants GM. Guess I'm just a simple fan. If I disliked the moves being made by any GM as much as some here seem to, as well as the direction in which the club seems to be moving, Personally speaking (emphasis on that ) I might consider not following the team or eve possibly pulling for someone else.

[moonslav59]

It was DD who traded for Smith of course.

 

With all due respect to these fine fellows, RDL, Webster & Miley were all pretty much stiffs.

 

At the time, DLR and Webster were probably our best young ML ready pitching hopes.

 

Sorry for the boo boo on Smith. Ben did trade Iggy and Montas for Peavy, though.

 

[harmony]

Nobody knows for sure, but I do not think Ben was going to keep all his best prospects forever. For one thing, they couldn't all fit on the roster, and for another thing, he'd already proven he was willing to trade young players away (RDL & Webster for Miley and then Aro with Miley for Carson Smith).

 

Just my opinion.

For what it's worth, Jonathan Aro is only a year younger than Carson Smith (who is three years younger than Wade Miley).

[moonslav59]

But Moon, I get the passion that goes along with the feelings of so many people here. I've always felt that passion in what we do keeps us moving and young. I just don't get the passion that is exhibited for both the like and dislike, and for some that is exactly what it is, for GM's. How does anyone here really truly know what Ben Cherington would have done with this team had he been able to stay? Do people really believe that LL was responsible for the bad free agent signings under Cherington. Is it fair to judge DD with respect to minor league developed based on something you think you might know based on his past. Personally I would not have minded Cherington staying. I truly do not care. I will say though that I have not disliked any of the moves DD has made to date. It took me a long time time as in years and years not just a couple to get sick of the moves made by "my" former NY Giants GM. Guess I'm just a simple fan. If I disliked the moves being made by any GM as much as some here seem to, as well as the direction in which the club seems to be moving, Personally speaking (emphasis on that ) I might consider not following the team or eve possibly pulling for someone else.

 

I don't think I've ever been one to blame LL for anything bad Ben or Theo did. I know others have.

 

I think debating a GMs moves is a large part of why boards like this exist. All the "what ifs? and WTF's? constitute a significant percentage of all posts, rightly or wrongly.

 

It's been decades since I ever called for a GMs head, although I've been highly critical of many decisions made along the way. I'm also usually one of the last posters to call for a manager to be fired, including Bobby V.

 

I actually like DD, and looking at the totality of all his moves, I'd say he's on the positive side. I'm okay with a win now philosphy that involves a window bigger than 1-2 years. A 4-5 year window was and still is fine by me, but some assume I hate Ben, because I speak of the cliff too often. I try to be a realist despite my Sox bias. I like to discuss GM moves, non moves, managerial choices, but I try to avoid criticisms of managers over one or two in game choices made. That's one reason I usually avoid game threads.

 

I get that hindsight judgement of GMs is not inherently fair, but it's an age-old tradition that is hard to shake. (That's one reason I try to give my opinion right away, so it does not appear like I am hindsight bashing or praising.)

[cp176]

I don't think I've ever been one to blame LL for anything bad Ben or Theo did. I know others have.

 

I think debating a GMs moves is a large part of why boards like this exist. All the "what ifs? and WTF's? constitute a significant percentage of all posts, rightly or wrongly.

 

It's been decades since I ever called for a GMs head, although I've been highly critical of many decisions made along the way. I'm also usually one of the last posters to call for a manager to be fired, including Bobby V.

 

I actually like DD, and looking at the totality of all his moves, I'd say he's on the positive side. I'm okay with a win now philosphy that involves a window bigger than 1-2 years. A 4-5 year window was and still is fine by me, but some assume I hate Ben, because I speak of the cliff too often. I try to be a realist despite my Sox bias. I like to discuss GM moves, non moves, managerial choices, but I try to avoid criticisms of managers over one or two in game choices made. That's one reason I usually avoid game threads.

 

I get that hindsight judgement of GMs is not inherently fair, but it's an age-old tradition that is hard to shake. (That's one reason I try to give my opinion right away, so it does not appear like I am hindsight bashing or praising.)

 

I think that you have remained fairly neutral over the course of this GM discussion. You helped answer some questions for me. I probably should not have posted this because I do think that anything to keep the board moving along is good.

[mvp 78]

At the time, DLR and Webster were probably our best young ML ready pitching hopes.

 

Sorry for the boo boo on Smith. Ben did trade Iggy and Montas for Peavy, though.

 

 

Rubby and Webster weren't very good tho. Might as well trade them then lose them once their options go away.

[Bellhorn04]

At the time, DLR and Webster were probably our best young ML ready pitching hopes.

 

Yeah, that says a lot, doesn't it.