2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Elktonnick]

Umm no, according to Baseball Reference Sandoval has been hovering around replacement level defensively for most of his career, and he was below replacement level last year. Combine that with the offensive problems and we would have been better off going with Brock Holt as our everyday 3B

 

I agree.

[Station 13]

Brock Holt isn't as starter, has no power to play a corner position. He doesn't hold up for a full season either, fading mid season everytime. I don't like the makeup of this corner IF, two of the worst defenders is quite hard to overcome. They should have sign Beltre as their 3B, he is clearly the best 3B over the last decade, and continues to be remarkably good. Power/defense, that's Beltre.

[Station 13]

just how great has Beltre been after leaving Seattle? He average 6WAR+ during that time, and receives a modest 5/80M contract. What a steal.

 

Plus he is also a great clubhouse present, a guy who enjoys this game and never taken it for granted. I love his style of play.

[Bellhorn04]

Umm no, according to Baseball Reference Sandoval has been hovering around replacement level defensively for most of his career, and he was below replacement level last year. Combine that with the offensive problems and we would have been better off going with Brock Holt as our everyday 3B

 

Yes, but if Sandoval could return to his 2012-2014 norms, he's an overall 2.5 WAR player. That's what the Sox thought they were getting. Not a spectacular player by any means but a solid one.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, but if Sandoval could return to his 2012-2014 norms, he's an overall 2.5 WAR player. That's what the Sox thought they were getting. Not a spectacular player by any means but a solid one.

 

Cherrington was seduced by his playoff performance. He got him for the playoffs. There was always questions about Sandoval as an everyday player.

[Bellhorn04]

just how great has Beltre been after leaving Seattle? He average 6WAR+ during that time, and receives a modest 5/80M contract. What a steal.

 

Plus he is also a great clubhouse present, a guy who enjoys this game and never taken it for granted. I love his style of play.

 

Yes, I think Theo actually undervalued Beltre, something he doesn't often do. In a way we were hurt by the fact that we only signed Beltre to a one-year deal. If it had been a two-year deal we would have seen enough of him to fully realize how good he was.

[Bellhorn04]

Cherrington was seduced by his playoff performance. He got him for the playoffs. There was always questions about Sandoval as an everyday player.

 

I don't buy the 'playoff performance' thing for a second.

 

The Giants did make a pretty strong effort to retain Sandoval, it should be noted.

[a700hitter]

Yes, I think Theo actually undervalued Beltre, something he doesn't often do. In a way we were hurt by the fact that we only signed Beltre to a one-year deal. If it had been a two-year deal we would have seen enough of him to fully realize how good he was.

It was a huge mistake letting Beltre walk. He has been durable and consistently excellent. His final destination is going to be the Hall of Fame.

[Elktonnick]

I don't buy the 'playoff performance' thing for a second.

 

The Giants did make a pretty strong effort to retain Sandoval, it should be noted.

 

I don't buy the strong effort stuff by the Giants, If it had been a truly "strong" effort he'd still be a Giant.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't buy the strong effort stuff by the Giants, If it had been a truly "strong" effort he'd still be a Giant.

 

They offered him the same amount we did. He picked the Red Sox. Such is free agency.

[Elktonnick]

They offered him the same amount we did. He picked the Red Sox. Such is free agency.

 

I think this article says it all, It appears they only offered the same amount after it was certain that Sandoval was going to leave over the weight issue. His case is somewhat analogous to the Lester fiasco in Boston.

 

Pablo Sandoval on Giants: 'I cut things off at the root'

Jorge L. Ortiz9:15 a.m. EDT March 25, 2015

USP MLB: BOSTON RED SOX-WORKOUT S BBA USA FL

(Photo: Steve Mitchell, USA TODAY Sports)

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FORT MYERS, Fla. – Pablo Sandoval doesn't do long, tearful goodbyes. He pulls up stakes – more like yanks them – and moves on.

 

So while the new Boston Red Sox third baseman says he didn't mean to disrespect his former San Francisco Giants teammates or their fans with recent comments - he still clearly holds a grudge against the team's management – he's not going out of his way to make amends either.

 

Sandoval changed his phone number and has remained largely incommunicado from the fellows he played with.

 

"New house, new friends,'' Sandoval told USA TODAY Sports in Spanish on Tuesday, his locker at the Red Sox spring training camp strategically positioned between David Ortiz and Hanley Ramirez. "I turned the page and now it's on to a new one. That's the way I am. I'll try to do my best here and hopefully do with my teammates here what we did there. I cut things off at the root.''

 

 

USA TODAY

Unsafe at home: MLB's Venezuelan stars fleeing country

 

Sandoval's decision in November to take a five-year, $95 million deal from the Red Sox instead of a similar offer from the Giants prompted anguish among fans in the Bay Area, best captured by the San Francisco Chronicle's headline – Beloved Panda escapes.

 

During his seven years with the Giants – three of them concluding in World Series championships, two of them facilitated by his postseason exploits – fans had purchased panda hats by the thousands and embraced the rotund, jovial third baseman.

 

Their feelings were hurt again earlier this month when Sandoval was quoted by Bleacher Report as saying it wasn't hard to leave San Francisco, and the only two guys he missed were manager Bruce Bochy and right fielder Hunter Pence.

 

The comments were at odds with his lively and loud personality in a clubhouse that included at least four of his Venezuelan countrymen.

 

Asked about his statements Tuesday, Sandoval said he meant Bochy and Pence were at the top of his list, not that the rest were insignificant.

 

"I said I miss Hunter and Bochy,'' said Sandoval, 28. "If I start naming the 25 players, I'd spend all day. How could I not miss them? It was a group that formed a dynasty.''

 

What Sandoval won't back off on is his belief the Giants showed him little respect, offering him three years and $40 million last spring when he was seeking a contract closer to Pence's five-year, $90 million deal.

 

Sandoval was especially bothered by general manager Brian Sabean saying publicly in April that Sandoval's camp had "drawn a line in the sand that we're not going to beat, nor should we meet.''

 

USA TODAY

Dodgers sign Cuban infielder Hector Olivera to a six-year, $62.5 million contract

 

In late November, after Sandoval had another postseason for the ages – batting .366, setting a record with 26 hits and catching the final out of the World Series – the Giants did cross that line. By then it was too late. Sandoval said he declined to consider their final offer, instead opting to head to Boston.

 

"Being a homegrown player, for them not to demonstrate the love for me to come back there, I think that says a lot,'' Sandoval said, sounding matter-of-fact rather than bitter when asked to recount his feelings. "I'm not going to play someplace where I was happy with my teammates but I was personally unhappy with them (management).''

 

Sandoval has landed on a team that can also claim three World Series titles in the 2000s, although over a longer stretch. The Red Sox ended their epic championship drought in 2004 and also won in 2007 and 2013. The one constant in those clubs was Ortiz, who can compare not only rings but also World Series MVP trophies with Sandoval.

 

They also have weight issues in common. The 6-3 Ortiz said he put on extra weight as his metabolism slowed down in his early 30s, so he dropped 30 pounds one offseason six or seven years ago and typically plays at 260. Now he's sharing his wisdom with Sandoval.

 

David Ortiz says he's warned Pablo Sandoval about the

David Ortiz says he's warned Pablo Sandoval about the imminent slowing of his metabolism. (Photo: Corey Perrine, AP)

"I've been getting after Pablo about that,'' Ortiz said. "Because Pablo is very agile, but he's 28 now. If he doesn't take care of himself, in a couple of years he could lose that agility overnight. So I'm talking to him about eating better, because if you want to stay in this game, you have to take care of yourself.''

 

Of course, it's one thing to get that message from a highly respected peer like Ortiz, another one to hear it from your bosses.

 

Sandoval acknowledged he was irritated by what he considered the Giants' harping on his weight, which tended to increase significantly during the season, hampering his defensive range. He pointed out the Red Sox have hired a nutritionist and he's trying to pay heed, but conceded the results don't show so far. He wouldn't reveal where the scales stop, saying simply he's comfortable at his current weight.

 

Sandoval is pleased the Red Sox have not made an issue of his weight, and they smartly refrained from bringing up the topic while pursuing him in the offseason.

 

However, Sandoval's less-than-svelte physique has already created consternation among New England fans, as an unflattering photo early in camp showed him sporting a significant gut.

 

"I'm a professional and I know what I have to do,'' said Sandoval, listed as 5-11 and 255. "I know where I've failed and how I've grown up. If I had signed (with the Giants), I knew I would be under a (weight) regimen for five years, and I'm not going to be happy someplace where I'm under that kind of regimen, where I can't be mysel

[jung]

By his own admission, not somebody elses, Panda's next Giants deal was going to have strings attached to it with regard to his weight. Go back and read the interviews Panda himself gave. You don't have to go any further then the player himself. The Giants were attaching strngs. The Sox were not...ergo...Panda to Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

If you want to go with a theory that Pablo was signed for box office reasons rather than sound baseball reasons, that's fine, but I think that suggests the move was directed by Lucchino and/or Werner, not Cherington.

[jung]

There I do agree in principle. IMO we should never think of either Theo's run or BC's run as separate and distinct from Larry. In fact for a long time now I have been posting it as Larry/BC's regime or Larry/Theo's regime. In fact, I think the idea that Larry gave up anything to Theo post the Gorrilla suit is nonsense. Larry gave up nothing and ultimately Theo just had all he could take and moved on.

 

Also, you can't expect organizations to stay the same just because the same people are there. They end up focused in different areas and concentrating on different aspects of the business. They especially will often focus more effort on the things they love to do and that they do well with things that they have been given the responsibility for simply becoming subservient to their favorites. Having won two WS championships in relatively short order, Larry IMO focused more effort on his favorites, Marketing and we got Larry ala' bricks and bats while he still could stick his hands right into Baseball Ops any time he wanted to do so and he could make Baseball Ops act as an extension of his Marketing effort if he wanted to do so.

 

While I often chide JH for thinking about the words he chooses after he has already uttered them, no truer words were ever spoken than "LARRY RUNS THE RED SOX! Funny while JH was never in public more direct nor more honest, I don't think we fully grasped the meaning of what JH had said.

[a700hitter]

If you want to go with a theory that Pablo was signed for box office reasons rather than sound baseball reasons, that's fine, but I think that suggests the move was directed by Lucchino and/or Werner, not Cherington.

To generate box office among the Doughnut People demographic? I doubt it.

[Dojji]

Brock Holt isn't as starter, has no power to play a corner position. He doesn't hold up for a full season either, fading mid season everytime. I don't like the makeup of this corner IF, two of the worst defenders is quite hard to overcome. They should have sign Beltre as their 3B, he is clearly the best 3B over the last decade, and continues to be remarkably good. Power/defense, that's Beltre.

 

I didn't say Holt was a good option. I said he was a better option than Panda.

[Bellhorn04]

To generate box office among the Doughnut People demographic? I doubt it.

 

Coming into this season, his image was more like Kung Fu Panda the Playoff Stud among people who like that stuff - and there are a lot of them - that's why billions of dollars in merchandise are sold.

[jung]

What I don't think we will ever know unless there is a tell all book eventually is:

How did they actually work this thing;

- would BC or Theo forward different options with recommendations to Larry with Larry choosing from them? (not unlikely)

- would BC or Theo forward up to Larry the one guy for a position that they favored over all others? (possibly but i doubt it especially with BC)

- last did it work exactly the same way with both Larry/Theo and Larry/BC? (that I very much doubt for a number of reasons)

[Elktonnick]

What I don't think we will ever know unless there is a tell all book eventually is:

How did they actually work this thing;

- would BC or Theo forward different options with recommendations to Larry with Larry choosing from them? (not unlikely)

- would BC or Theo forward up to Larry the one guy for a position that they favored over all others? (possibly but i doubt it especially with BC)

- last did it work exactly the same way with both Larry/Theo and Larry/BC? (that I very much doubt for a number of reasons)

 

There seems to be this "myth" that all the bad moves were Larry's over ruling Ben. I guess it is because Ben had a more benign public persona. As far as I know there is no objective evidence that substantiates that belief.

[a700hitter]

Coming into this season, his image was more like Kung Fu Panda the Playoff Stud among people who like that stuff - and there are a lot of them - that's why billions of dollars in merchandise are sold.

Yeah, his signing did dominate the news cycle in Boston for 5 minutes. Very reflective of his popularity and fan appeal.

[Bellhorn04]

There seems to be this "myth" that all the bad moves were Larry's over ruling Ben. I guess it is because Ben had a more benign public persona. As far as I know there is no objective evidence that substantiates that belief.

 

Just as there is no objective evidence that substantiates a belief that Ben was 'seduced by Panda's playoff performance'.

[Elktonnick]

Just as there is no objective evidence that substantiates a belief that Ben was 'seduced by Panda's playoff performance'.

 

No Ben got him for his outstanding defense and athleticism. The fact that Sandoval had better post season than regular season numbers had absolutely nothing to do with Ben's signing him.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Elktonnick

[Kimmi]

I really haven't noticed anyone saying that they'd hover around .500. Even A700 believes this team should be in the upper 80's. Now, they COULD hover around .500 as they have done so more often than not in the previous 4 years, but I think most of us believe this team will be better this year. I honestly think a lot of the quibbling has been between the difference of a WS contender and a team fighting for the playoffs.

 

This team should be good, but would have a much better chance if they had found that second starting pitcher.

 

Kimmi, you should create a poll and see where people project the team to wind up in the win column. I think we have done those in the past.

 

I will do that, as we get a little closer to the start of the season.

[Kimmi]

Interesting! Loyalty is a value that cannot be under estimated but in Farrell's case, realty should kick in at some point.

 

I have said many times that managing the players, especially in a city like Boston, is more important than managing the games. Francona was a master of managing his players. I am still undecided about Farrell, but I suspect his in game managing is probably not as bad as most people think.

 

Francona was always heavily criticized for being a poor in game manager by people (meaning fans on message boards) and that simply was not the case.

[a700hitter]

I have said many times that managing the players, especially in a city like Boston, is more important than managing the games. Francona was a master of managing his players. I am still undecided about Farrell, but I suspect his in game managing is probably not as bad as most people think.

 

Francona was always heavily criticized for being a poor in game manager by people (meaning fans on message boards) and that simply was not the case.

Francona was a master at penciling in Ortiz and Manny in the lineup every night at 3/4 or 4/3. that was the secret to his success.

[Kimmi]

Umm no, according to Baseball Reference Sandoval has been hovering around replacement level defensively for most of his career, and he was below replacement level last year. Combine that with the offensive problems and we would have been better off going with Brock Holt as our everyday 3B

 

Oh geez, I keep forgetting that you guys don't do Fangraphs.

 

Baseball Reference's dWAR is a bit of a misnomer. What they use for "replacement level" defensively is league average. Their reasoning for being able to call it 'defensive runs above replacement' is that replacement level players are usually league average defenders. So, defensive wins above replacement is actually defensive wins above league average.

 

Pablo's career BR dWAR, not including last year, is +0.9. If you want to say he has always hovered around being average defensively, I can live with that. He has not been a defensive liability.

[Kimmi]

Yes, but if Sandoval could return to his 2012-2014 norms, he's an overall 2.5 WAR player. That's what the Sox thought they were getting. Not a spectacular player by any means but a solid one.

 

^^This. There is no way anyone could have realistically expected Pablo to be as bad as he was last year.

[Kimmi]

Cherrington was seduced by his playoff performance. He got him for the playoffs. There was always questions about Sandoval as an everyday player.

 

I know you have no use for Cherington, but Cherington knows better than to be seduced by playoff performance.

[Kimmi]

Yes, I think Theo actually undervalued Beltre, something he doesn't often do. In a way we were hurt by the fact that we only signed Beltre to a one-year deal. If it had been a two-year deal we would have seen enough of him to fully realize how good he was.

 

OTOH, Theo was a master at turning short term players into draft picks. The Sox drafted Swihart and JBJ with the picks they got for Beltre.

[Kimmi]

If you want to go with a theory that Pablo was signed for box office reasons rather than sound baseball reasons, that's fine, but I think that suggests the move was directed by Lucchino and/or Werner, not Cherington.

 

If anyone was seduced by Pablo's postseason numbers, it was Lucchino. He's the one always trying to sign "sexy" players.