2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Northern Star]

And minor league teams don't win the World Series.

 

It seems strange to me that all Dumbo had to do was spend 220 million on one arm, trade four significant prospects for Kimbrel, and wham, this team is looking like a contender. Its almost like the other 20 guys on the roster came from nowhere.

 

You know very well that I value a good minor league system, I'm just puzzled by Kimmi defending Ben for that and refusing to condemn the awful major league signings and trades. If Ben was such hot s*** why did we finish last 2 years running with all these great homegrown players?

[Palodios]

You know very well that I value a good minor league system, I'm just puzzled by Kimmi defending Ben for that and refusing to condemn the awful major league signings and trades. If Ben was such hot s*** why did we finish last 2 years running with all these great homegrown players?

 

I hear you, but we all get tired of the same old Ben arguments.

 

When Theo was the GM, the Red Sox always made smart trades and small transactions but failed miserably at big contracts.

When Ben was the GM, the Red Sox always made smart trades and small transactions but failed miserably at big contracts.

 

I strongly believe that the billionaires are the ones who have made most of the big money decisions. Guys like Crawford and Pablo were not intelligent baseball decisions.

[a700hitter]

I hear you, but we all get tired of the same old Ben arguments.

 

When Theo was the GM, the Red Sox always made smart trades and small transactions but failed miserably at big contracts.

When Ben was the GM, the Red Sox always made smart trades and small transactions but failed miserably at big contracts.

 

I strongly believe that the billionaires are the ones who have made most of the big money decisions. Guys like Crawford and Pablo were not intelligent baseball decisions.

 

If you get tired of the same old arguments, why do you keep rolling them out. The guy got fired. He rolled out rosters that were steaming piles of crap in 3 of his 4 years at the helm. He left the organization without top quality pitching. He got fired -- yes fired except for those in fantasy land- because he wasn't doing a good job. Keep arguing his greatness.

[Bellhorn04]

Most of the players who had good seasons for us in 2015 were guys left from Epstein's tenure.

[Palodios]

Most of the players who had good seasons for us in 2015 were guys left from Epstein's tenure.

 

Every GM inherits a core. Unfortunately, Epstein hadn't drafted any decent pitching which has been the Red Sox's weakness.

 

We need to see what happens with Erod, Porcelo, Kelly, Koji, and Johnson next year. Those are Ben acquisitions.

[Bellhorn04]

Every GM inherits a core. Unfortunately, Epstein hadn't drafted any decent pitching which has been the Red Sox's weakness.

 

That is true, but Ben jettisoning Lester and Lackey in favor of Porcello and Kelly did not help matters, in 2015 at least.

[Palodios]

That is true, but Ben jettisoning Lester and Lackey in favor of Porcello and Kelly did not help matters, in 2015 at least.

 

The Lackey trade was awful, but it seemed like there were other factors at play. Henry wouldn't pay Lester market value, and Lackey was pissed at the Red Sox for some reason.

[Elktonnick]

The Lackey trade was awful, but it seemed like there were other factors at play. Henry wouldn't pay Lester market value, and Lackey was pissed at the Red Sox for some reason.

 

I have been fairly vocal that I thought Lackey was a "slug" and I am glad to see him gone from Boston. I thought Cherrington did a terrible job as the chief of baseball operations. He apparently was a good subordinate but terrible when left to his own devices. That being said I can't balme him for letting John Lackey go.

[a700hitter]

Napoli signed with the Guardians. The Guardians have done very little so far this off season. I think Napoli is a pretty shot player.

[Palodios]

Here's something crazy. The Giants are giving Cueto a 5 million dollar bonus if he opts out in two years. So, if he wins the NL Cy Young in 2016/2017, the Giants then have to give him 5 million dollars as he walks out the door.

 

Sounds like the Giants don't really want to pay Cueto into his later years of the deal.

[Kimmi]

Not to be rude but that is nonsense. 217 million dollars over 7 years not the state of the farm system is the reason David Price signed with the Red Sox.

 

A big reason why ownership OK'd the Price contract was because of the young, cost-controlled players already on the team, with several more 2-3 years away. So no, it's not nonsense. Dombrowski's two biggest moves, Price and Kimbrel, were possible because of the state of the farm system.

[Kimmi]

Wasn't it widely reported that one of the first things David Price asked before putting ink to paper was the status of the Sox' farm system? They had to give him a rundown of both the MLB and MiLB roster, and he specifically asked about Benintendi. Let's just ignore the news that don't suit our arguments! Also, Craig Kimbrel.

 

And then there's this.

[Kimmi]

that's nice, now about the state of the major league team under his watch.... because minor league teams don't play in the World Series.

 

No, but good minor league players often graduate to become good major league players.

[Kimmi]

And minor league teams don't win the World Series.

 

It seems strange to me that all Dumbo had to do was spend 220 million on one arm, trade four significant prospects for Kimbrel, and wham, this team is looking like a contender. Its almost like the other 20 guys on the roster came from nowhere.

 

No kidding.

 

And seriously, how hard is it to spend $30 + million more than the next highest offer to land a player?

[a700hitter]

No kidding.

 

And seriously, how hard is it to spend $30 + million more than the next highest offer to land a player?

I agree. It is far more difficult to spend $184 million and finish dead last two years in a row.

[a700hitter]

I agree. It is far more difficult to spend $184 million and finish dead last two years in a row.

Spending that much and finishing last has to be unprecedented.

[Kimmi]

You know very well that I value a good minor league system, I'm just puzzled by Kimmi defending Ben for that and refusing to condemn the awful major league signings and trades. If Ben was such hot s*** why did we finish last 2 years running with all these great homegrown players?

 

It would be one thing if Ben put together such horrible teams that everyone predicted and expected them to finish in last place. That's not the case. Both years, the Red Sox were projected to be a contending team. Last year, they were projected to win the division. You can't fault Ben for the level of underperformance/injuries that both teams had.

 

If Price and Kimbrel absolutely stink this year, will that be Dombrowski's fault?

 

Lastly, I have always felt, and now my opinion is supported by "several baseball executives", that most of the "mistakes" that Ben made were the result of directives from higher up.

[a700hitter]

It would be one thing if Ben put together such horrible teams that everyone predicted and expected them to finish in last place. That's not the case. Both years, the Red Sox were projected to be a contending team. Last year, they were projected to win the division. You can't fault Ben for the level of underperformance/injuries that both teams had.

 

If Price and Kimbrel absolutely stink this year, will that be Dombrowski's fault?

 

Lastly, I have always felt, and now my opinion is supported by "several baseball executives", that most of the "mistakes" that Ben made were the result of directives from higher up.

No one would ever expect $184 million roster to be so bad, but it was. And he did the unthinkable two seasons on a row. Very hard to do.

[Kimmi]

Most of the players who had good seasons for us in 2015 were guys left from Epstein's tenure.

 

This may be true, but was Ben not Theo's right hand man during that time? I'm sure he had a large input into those decisions. Also, Ben was wise enough not to trade those players despite many people wanting them traded, especially Bogaerts after 2014. How many people wanted us to trade our youngsters for Hamels?

[Kimmi]

I agree. It is far more difficult to spend $184 million and finish dead last two years in a row.

 

It is more far more difficult to build a pitching staff when you can't throw $217 million at a 30 year old pitcher.

[Kimmi]

Spending that much and finishing last has to be unprecedented.

 

It is unprecedented. That it happened is an enigma.

[a700hitter]

This may be true, but was Ben not Theo's right hand man during that time? I'm sure he had a large input into those decisions. Also, Ben was wise enough not to trade those players despite many people wanting them traded, especially Bogaerts after 2014. How many people wanted us to trade our youngsters for Hamels?

Wisdom was his hallmark along with last place. Other Red Sox GM's have won World Series, but no Red Sox GM has finished last 3 times and I don't think any GM in baseball took the second highest payroll in the league to last place twice in a row. Edited December 18, 2015 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

It is unprecedented. That it happened is an enigma.

That it happened 2 years in a row makes it a pattern, not an enigma.

[Elktonnick]

And then there's this.

What a crock a of hooey! Price has an opt out clause in three years. He is so impressed with the opportunity to play with these young players in " two or three years" that he has that clause included in his contract.

 

You can believe in the tooth fairy if you want but you can't deny the fact that money talks (217 big ones in fact) and BS walks. The idea that all of what Dombrowski accomplished is because of Cherrington's wonderful farm system is simply more BS of wishful thinking that Cherrington actually accomplished something during his tenure as Chief of Baseball Operations other than leaving a pile of crap for some one competent to clean up .

 

Regarding the farm system it was actually Theo who put together the strategy and infrastructure that made the farm system what it is today. Cherrington only can be credited with following Epstein's lead.

 

Obviously John Henry wasn't that impressed with young Ben's efforts otherwise he wouldn't have fired him.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elktonnick

[a700hitter]

It is more far more difficult to build a pitching staff when you can't throw $217 million at a 30 year old pitcher.

it is pretty difficult to spend what he spent and have a staff ERA that hovered around 5 for most of the season.

[Spudboy]

Napoli signed with the Guardians. The Guardians have done very little so far this off season. I think Napoli is a pretty shot player.

 

I'm not sure about that. He raised his BA to .248 or so while at Texas. Probably a small sample size but he did improve.

[Spudboy]

It would be one thing if Ben put together such horrible teams that everyone predicted and expected them to finish in last place. That's not the case. Both years, the Red Sox were projected to be a contending team. Last year, they were projected to win the division. You can't fault Ben for the level of underperformance/injuries that both teams had.

 

If Price and Kimbrel absolutely stink this year, will that be Dombrowski's fault?

 

Lastly, I have always felt, and now my opinion is supported by "several baseball executives", that most of the "mistakes" that Ben made were the result of directives from higher up.

 

As you should know by now, I am certainly not a Ben apologist. I sort of suspect it was LL who called for at least some of the really dumb moves like Fatso and the Dreaded One.

[Northern Star]

No one would ever expect $184 million roster to be so bad, but it was. And he did the unthinkable two seasons on a row. Very hard to do.

 

Ben greased the wheels nicely by blowing up the rotation and bringing in the vastly overrated Porcello and he-is-what-he-is Miley. Add the vastly ordinary Panda and a fielding dud playing out of position for the first time ever and that's not a bad recipe for grenading a season.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, is your last name Cherington?

[Elktonnick]

As you should know by now, I am certainly not a Ben apologist. I sort of suspect it was LL who called for at least some of the really dumb moves like Fatso and the Dreaded One.

 

We can only speculate but Ben was Chief of Baseball Operations so unless he is an entirely empty suit he can't escape responsibility for the mess. If he wasn't responsible and he was an empty suit then he should have been fired as being totally worthless. You can't have it both ways.